Atheists & Christians in the USA

[Fraggle Rocker]

According to the American Religious Identification Survey cited in today's Washington Post:

• Christians fell from 86% of the population in 1990 to 76% in 2008.
• 75,000,000 Americans, or 1 in 4, are not Christians.
• More than 5,000,000 Americans claim no religious affiliation.
• According to the definition, “someone who does not believe the ancient deities are real,” 12-15% of Americans are atheists, although only 1-2% refer to themselves that way. [Many atheists claim "religious affiliation" and belong to churches, synagogues, etc., for various reasons, including family pressure, sense of community, charity work, and hostility toward atheists in America's less cosmopolitan regions. Attitudes toward this form of hypocrisy under pressure vary from a warm welcome by the Unitarians to grudging acceptance into the more liberal Jewish congregations to ostracism or worse in the more conservative Christian churches. -- F.R.]
• The “Nones” (the survey's term for non-believers and the unaffiliated combined) are the third-largest group, outnumbering Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Southern Baptists combined.

 

[Hellenologophobia]

Many atheists are silent. There is still a stigma attached to being an atheist in America. We’re not even supposed to talk about it.

Dear Miss Manners

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Many atheists are silent. There is still a stigma attached to being an atheist in America. We’re not even supposed to talk about it.

I very seldom meet people who go into the doctrinal details of their religions, much less ask me about mine, much much less start proselytizing. Maybe this is because I make quite an effort to live in cosmopolitan cities where diversity is commonplace and people have learned from experience that someone else's religion (or lack of it) is of little consequence to the quality of their work, their loyalty or their good citizenship.

Despite being perhaps the most articulately outspoken atheist on this website, I do in fact have several friends who are fairly devout Christians. We have discussed our beliefs frankly and it has not caused a rift in our friendship. The reason is that we don't try to change the other person. I learned long ago that religion has very little to do with reason so you can't use logic to argue a person into giving up his fairytale. And they can easily tell, from the heavy emphasis I place on reasoning and evidence in all facets of my life, that they're not going to convince me to believe in what I consider a fairytale. Since we each accept the other for what he is, and since we each respect the other's accomplishments, the wholesomeness of their relationships, and the rest of who they are and what they do, we can both make a rational decision to leave well enough alone.

If I lived in a place where people routinely looked down on me for not being a believer, made intrusive attempts to convert me, shunned me, sabotaged my work and friendships, because I'm an atheist, my way of dealing with that would be to find someplace else to live. I would not write to an advice columnist about it.

Yet, even though atheists don't walk around constantly focused on the nonexistence of imaginary deities, I understand that many religious people actually do bring their religion into many, most, or even all aspects of their lives. In their case, asking what church I go to, offering blessings to people with allergies, and seeing corporeal death as merely a transition, are part of who they are. They're not necessarily being confrontational. The impersonal comments may be simply ignored. It may take a little creativity to deflect the personal comments, but hey nobody promised that life was going to be easy.

Put it in perspective. If some coworker asks you every Friday to come listen to the wonderful sermon at his church on Sunday, and that's the stinkiest, nastiest thing that happens to you all week, your life truly is, um... "blessed."

And hey, you can always just tell them you're a Unitarian. No matter what you believe, you actually could be a Unitarian, so they can't call you on it. There probably aren't Unitarian churches in most of the Bible Belt hamlets where these people live, so you won't even have to show up at a service every couple of months to maintain your cover.

 

[wynn]

Despite being perhaps the most articulately outspoken atheist on this website, I do in fact have several friends who are fairly devout Christians. We have discussed our beliefs frankly and it has not caused a rift in our friendship. The reason is that we don't try to change the other person. I learned long ago that religion has very little to do with reason so you can't use logic to argue a person into giving up his fairytale. And they can easily tell, from the heavy emphasis I place on reasoning and evidence in all facets of my life, that they're not going to convince me to believe in what I consider a fairytale. Since we each accept the other for what he is, and since we each respect the other's accomplishments, the wholesomeness of their relationships, and the rest of who they are and what they do, we can both make a rational decision to leave well enough alone.

I think that you and your Christian friends have very awkward and shallow ideas about friendship.

How can they be friends with you, and how can you consider them your friends, when you believe that that which they hold to be central to their lives, is a fairytale?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I think that you and your Christian friends have very awkward and shallow ideas about friendship. How can they be friends with you, and how can you consider them your friends, when you believe that that which they hold to be central to their lives, is a fairytale?

I don't think any of them are the kind of religious zealots who regard their religion as the center of their lives. They were raised in a church and they like it, but they also like the other things in their lives.

My biggest objection to Christianity (depending on the day of the week) is its evangelism: the belief that God wants them to "save" the rest of us from eternal damnation by showing us the error of our ways and bringing us into the church. This is of course the same thing I hate about Islam: that sense of superiority, that conviction that we're all just a little bit less than them and it's their sworn duty to improve us--sometimes against our will or even by force. Yet not all Christians or Muslims actually practice evangelism, and many of them have found a way to rationalize that and not count it as a failing.

We all have our faults, and we find ways to love and respect each other in spite of them. I'm not going to tell you mine because everybody else had to get to know me for years before they identified them all, so why should you have it any easier. Suffice it to say that I have them and some people find them annoying, yet they put up with my faults and they find a way to be my friends.

Some of my friends are Christians and I find that annoying but I put up with it and find a way to be their friend.

I have known people who beat their spouses, who steal and rob, who coast through life doing absolutely nothing and spongeing off of friends and family... hell I even (yucch I hate it when this little memory pops into my head) once met a pedophile! I could not be those people's friend.

The average Christian is a much better human being than those people, and very often I find that I can be his friend.

 

[wynn]

Yet not all Christians or Muslims actually practice evangelism, and many of them have found a way to rationalize that and not count it as a failing.

Perhaps they are still evangelizing, and you at that, just in a way that is too subtle for you to notice.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Perhaps they are still evangelizing, and you at that, just in a way that is too subtle for you to notice.

Well sure. But in everyday relationships stuff like that is down below noise level. The probability is zero that either of us will ever be swayed by the "subtle evangelism" of the other, so it becomes a private joke.

Besides, I have talked to these people and they tell me that every Christian does indeed have a duty to spread the word of God, but that does not mean that every Christian must literally do it by speaking.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, then an event is worth a thousand pictures. One instance of Christians putting their lives on hold (or even risking their lives) to help people of a "competing" faith avoid dying of starvation or injury after a catastrophe--without even handing out Bibles!--is, indeed, worth a million words. I consider myself a "good person," but I have never done anything close to that! I just provide some of the money that they need in order to do those good deeds.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

According to the American Religious Identification Survey cited in today's Washington Post:

• Christians fell from 86% of the population in 1990 to 76% in 2008.
• 75,000,000 Americans, or 1 in 4, are not Christians.
• More than 5,000,000 Americans claim no religious affiliation.
• According to the definition, “someone who does not believe the ancient deities are real,” 12-15% of Americans are atheists, although only 1-2% refer to themselves that way. [Many atheists claim "religious affiliation" and belong to churches, synagogues, etc., for various reasons, including family pressure, sense of community, charity work, and hostility toward atheists in America's less cosmopolitan regions. Attitudes toward this form of hypocrisy under pressure vary from a warm welcome by the Unitarians to grudging acceptance into the more liberal Jewish congregations to ostracism or worse in the more conservative Christian churches. -- F.R.]
• The “Nones” (the survey's term for non-believers and the unaffiliated combined) are the third-largest group, outnumbering Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Southern Baptists combined.

I pulled this from the link you provided:

But it took the advent of the Internet for nonbelievers to find each other and their voice.

As a result, America’s religious makeup is rapidly changing. The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) shows the country is trending away from Christianity, falling from 86 percent of the population in 1990 to 76 percent in 2008.

Personally I believe it's true that the Internet is driving this change. Before the Internet in about 50 years of life I didn't know any atheist and maybe met a couple that would cop to being an atheist. Now I get to interact with dozens of people who have no problem with being atheist and are very good at talking about the why and how of it.

I went a long time before I was willing to even admit to myself that I was an atheist, I held out as an agnostic. But being able to talk to others on the science forums made all the difference in the world to me. I absolutely have no doubts about what I believe now and I have good responses for those that want to challenge me. I owe that confidence to the Internet.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Before the Internet in about 50 years of life I didn't know any atheist and maybe met a couple that would cop to being an atheist. Now I get to interact with dozens of people who have no problem with being atheist and are very good at talking about the why and how of it. I went a long time before I was willing to even admit to myself that I was an atheist, I held out as an agnostic. But being able to talk to others on the science forums made all the difference in the world to me. I absolutely have no doubts about what I believe now and I have good responses for those that want to challenge me. I owe that confidence to the Internet.

I never had that problem because I didn't know there was anything else to be. I didn't know there was a word "atheist" and I didn't know what religion was until I was about seven. My parents were second-generation atheists and religion is a topic that simply never came up in conversation at home. Why would it?

Except for the one second-grader who tried to explain that there's this guy named "God" who lives up in the sky and watches everything we do and can make lightning--whom I rewarded by rolling on the ground in laughter after hearing such a creative story and I couldn't understand why he seemed upset by my reaction--none of my friends in grade school ever talked about religion so I still had no idea what it was all about. Certainly they talked about church and all the fun stuff they did at the picnics and everything, but never about God and Jesus and those things.

My mother had briefly explained religion when I asked her why that little boy didn't like me laughing at him, but about all her explanation did was diminish my respect for humanity and turn me into a cynic. "You're saying that, unlike Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, parents never tell their children the truth about God, so they grow up still believing it? But I figured out the truth about the Tooth Fairy myself. Why aren't grownups smart enough to figure out the truth about God?" She just got this very sad look on her face and didn't know what to say.

In high school there finally were some kids who took their religion seriously and talked about it, but there were also several other atheists so I at last began to understand the issue in a little more detail. I even had a Catholic girlfriend--to my mother's chagrin, since her parents had left Bohemia (we call it the Czech Republic now because that's so much easier to spell and pronounce) in the 1890s precisely to get out from under the thumb of the Catholic church. I tell you, back in the 1950s these weighty national arguments about religion were simply not happening. We all managed to get along somehow, even if we were laughing behind each other's back.

Then of course I went to Caltech, where atheists were a majority. Soon the 1960s hit (what we call "the sixties" was really 1963-1975, from the first Beatles song to the withdrawal from Vietnam) and atheism became fashionable. Those same Beatles declared "We're more popular than Jesus now," and it didn't harm their career at all.

Religion didn't come back into vogue until the late 1970s. All the Baby Boomers were growing up and feeling ashamed of the sex and drugs and rock'n'roll. One thing about the Boomers: they assumed that they were the first and only people who did what they did. They were really weak on history and had no idea what was going on during the Roaring Twenties.

So they joined these little storefront Pentecostal and Charismatic churches to get in touch with "real" Christianity. The Latino, Redneck and Afro-American preachers and their working-class congregations were so delighted to have social workers, engineers and computer programmers kicking into the collection plate every Sunday that they welcomed them like they were Jesus themselves.

This was when I discovered just how much the hippies had gotten out of those college educations. Their ignorance was not limited to history! One Monday morning this gal who worked for me (a real hippie, she even legally changed her name so it now ends in hyphen-O) came skipping into my office and said, "I learned the most wonderful thing in church yesterday morning. The preacher told us that six thousand years ago there was peace all over the planet, even among the animals. You see, lions and tigers weren't predators then so there was no killing. They just ate leaves and flowers."

I said, "Wow, they must have looked a lot different than they do today. Herbivores require an enormous gut to host the bacterial culture they've got to have in order to digest the cellulose in leaves and flowers. Did he have any pictures? I'd like to see one!" She just looked at me like my dog does when I ask if anybody knows why there's a pile of poop on the kitchen floor.

 

[Orleander]

I have to testify in court on the 8th. I'm worried that they will ask me to swear on a Bible and I'll have to refuse. Won't the jury then see me as a liar? Being an atheist is harder than being a believer

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I have to testify in court on the 8th. I'm worried that they will ask me to swear on a Bible and I'll have to refuse. Won't the jury then see me as a liar? Being an atheist is harder than being a believer

I don't remember where you live, but outside the Bible Belt, especially in the cities, these days that's pretty routine. They will allow you to simply "affirm" without making a big deal out of it.

Make sure you give a heads-up to the prosecutor or defense attorney, whichever one is going to call you. They'll set it up in advance so it won't become an issue. After all, he's the guy who very much wants the jury to believe you.

Personally I wouldn't press the point if it was going to create a scene. There's nothing wrong with swearing an oath to an imaginary deity. You're simply not bound by it. You end up telling the truth just because you're an honest person. Nothin' wrong with that.

Haven't you ever told someone, "God damn you!" Have any trouble with that oath?

 

[Hesperado]

The OP's polarized framework neglects a major field of data: The vast spectrum in between "Atheist" and "Christian" composed, in great part, of (among other categories):

1) agnostics

2) lax Christians of varying degrees and flavors of laxity, many being de facto agnostics themselves if we measure their religiosity by their behaviors (e.g., only go to church on Christmas, Easter and maybe for weddings) rather than their beliefs -- which at best may amount to some vague sort of watered-down decaffeinated Deism that wrinkles its nose at the offense of "dogma", and additionally spiced perhaps by New Agey assimilation of zen Buddhism, or Hindu yoga and belief in "chakras", or Native American polytheism, or any number of other multi-culturalist samplings from the vast cafeteria of Comparative Religions (not to mention all those "recovering Catholics" who have hostile feelings against their own Church)

3) and finally, there is the considerable number of Christians who are flaming liberals about various sociopolitical issues and causes: surely, you wouldn't want to throw the Baptists/Congregationalists/Methodists/Lutherans/Episcopalians/Etc. who support the ordination of female (even lesbian) bishops/ministers; Gay Pride Parades; freedom of choice for abortion; marching with those Poor Palestinian "Victims" of Israeli "oppression"; and who agree with your opposition to forcing Creationism in public schools; etc. under the bus, would you -- just because they also happen to self-identify as "Christian"?

 

[Orleander]

yeah, I will have to give them a heads up.
And there is an issue for me to swear an oath on an imaginary deity. I can't do it. Its lying.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

yeah, I will have to give them a heads up.
And there is an issue for me to swear an oath on an imaginary deity. I can't do it. Its lying.

Yes it is, so what's the problem? All humans lie to some extent. You on the other hand seem to want to make an issue of it. I don't really have a problem with you making an issue of it. Just don't make out like you never lie. It's not believable.

 

[Orleander]

I'd be lying as I swear that I wouldn't lie??? That's a HUGE issue for me. I can't do it. Of course I lie and if they ask me, I will tell them I've lied. I have kids for crying out loud. Santa and he tooth fairy were both lies

 

[KilljoyKlown]

The OP's polarized framework neglects a major field of data: The vast spectrum in between "Atheist" and "Christian" composed, in great part, of (among other categories):

1) agnostics

I could make a case that most people that claim to be agnostic are really atheist that haven't come out of the closet yet. I could also make a case that if there was any real evidence that God exist there wouldn't be any atheist.

Truthfully I don't see much difference between atheist and agnostics other than one is still leaving the door open that there could be a God and that's mostly for the benefit of others. Wishy-washy and unwilling to take a real stand on what they really believe.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I'd be lying as I swear that I wouldn't lie??? That's a HUGE issue for me. I can't do it. Of course I lie and if they ask me, I will tell them I've lied. I have kids for crying out loud. Santa and he tooth fairy were both lies

I'll never understand why people feel it's necessary to lie to their kids.

 

[Hesperado]

I could make a case that most people that claim to be agnostic are really atheist that haven't come out of the closet yet.

I disagree. In fact, I think everyone is really, deep down, agnostic -- both atheists and all religious people. They are just fooling themselves with their certitude, the one side saying No, the other saying Yes. All we know is Maybe.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I disagree. In fact, I think everyone is really, deep down, agnostic -- both atheists and all religious people. They are just fooling themselves with their certitude, the one side saying No, the other saying Yes. All we know is Maybe.

Maybe my ass! There is or there isn't a God. There is no maybe or some in between. I think all religion is a human construct to control people and the way people think and to produce the sense of us and them, were right and they're wrong, we are saved and they are going to hell and bye the way don't forget your tithe and please give when the hats passed.

If I was a God, do you really think I would care what a bunch of primitive life forms on a back water planet were doing or feeling? As if I didn't have better things to do. If you could prove that ants in an ant colony were worshiping you. Would you feel any different about them. The very concept of God is ridiculous.

If there is a God, it needs to be a lot more convincing than it has been. By the definition of God being all knowing and all powerful, convincing me to believe in him should be a no-brainer. I'm still waiting and I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

And there is an issue for me to swear an oath on an imaginary deity. I can't do it. Its lying.

Oh Orly, dear Orly, you need to go back and re-read your notes from your college English class from the day when they covered metaphors. There is truth, there are lies, and there are metaphors. Joseph Campbell said that he was flabbergasted to meet people who genuinely could not grasp the concept of metaphor. He ran into this Redneck in the backwoods of Flammassippi and got into a huge argument over it. Finally he asked him, "So what if I say, 'This house of mine is a prison, because the payments are so high that I'm shackled to my job.' Don't you see how that's a metaphor?" The Redneck said, "No! It's a damn lie!"

Don't be that Redneck! "God" is a metaphor for all that's good and righteous in the world. It's okay to swear your faith metaphorically. You're simply saying that you swear to be good and righteous, and that means you have to tell the truth.

I'd be lying as I swear that I wouldn't lie???

Why do you say you're lying? If you swear that you're not going to lie, but you secretly intend to lie, THEN you're lying. If you swear that you're not going to lie and you have every intention of telling the truth, that is not a lie. It doesn't matter if you're swearing on your honor, on your mother's grave, or on your sacred Star Trek communicator. It's the bloody truth.

That's a HUGE issue for me. I can't do it. Of course I lie and if they ask me, I will tell them I've lied. I have kids for crying out loud. Santa and he tooth fairy were both lies

Good grief, Orly, you really are that Redneck! Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are both metaphors!

Get with the program, girl! You're in the big city now!

Santa Claus is a metaphor for the American economy tipping over from scarcity-driven to surplus-driven at the end of the 19th century. Changing Christmas from an intimate low-key family celebration to a public extravaganza of spending money, drinking hooch and giving gifts was a clever way to drive the economy a little harder and increase our standard of living. Santa Claus is prosperity! Santa Claus is America! We buy shit nobody needs and give it to people who don't want it because by some magical process we don't understand, it makes us even more prosperous than we already are!

I'll let you do your own research on the Tooth Fairy. Which is my way of saying I haven't done it. See, when I started typing I swore to Mithra that I wouldn't tell a lie, and I didn't.