Because there is no memory of being conscious. I've been unconscious before.
Atheist Realism?
- Thread starter ronan
- Start date
Ronan,
But more importantly you are making a fundamental error in your assumption.
While we have agreed that consciousness is the essence of “I” you are not yet free to assume anything concerning its cause.
Your assumption is the dualist approach – that there is something material and there is consciousness that is separate. The hard problem is the attempt to see how consciousness can arise from a material state.
It would be better if you didn’t use the word unconscious in this context. Unconscious is not the opposite of consciousness. But rather it is the opposite of being awake and aware.
But more importantly you are making a fundamental error in your assumption.
While we have agreed that consciousness is the essence of “I” you are not yet free to assume anything concerning its cause.
Your assumption is the dualist approach – that there is something material and there is consciousness that is separate. The hard problem is the attempt to see how consciousness can arise from a material state.
My assumption is not a dualist approach,
I put 3 assumptions
A1) dualist approach
A2) physical monism
A3) consciousness monism
A1) alone is the dualist approach.
For me A3) is true, there is no unconscious substance. only consciousness.
the cause of consciousness in A3) is consciousness itself. Reality is consciousness. In other word there is no cause behind consciousness that is not consciousness.
The cause of consciousness in A2) is the unconscious substance.
I told you they are assumptions. so do not attack me on that.
The point is that
I put 3 assumptions
A1) dualist approach
A2) physical monism
A3) consciousness monism
A1) alone is the dualist approach.
For me A3) is true, there is no unconscious substance. only consciousness.
the cause of consciousness in A3) is consciousness itself. Reality is consciousness. In other word there is no cause behind consciousness that is not consciousness.
The cause of consciousness in A2) is the unconscious substance.
I told you they are assumptions. so do not attack me on that.
The point is that
How can you rely on your memory?
you are conscious of having been unconscious but you are not unconscious of being unconscious neither conscious of being unconscious.
That is simply impossible.
unconsciousness cannot be part of your experiences.
Only a feeling of having lost memory about some time (seeing the time has changed) but these are conscious feelings.
You infer from that that you have been unconscious, but you cannot know for sure this. you don't even know what does it mean to be unconscious, you only know what does it means to feel like having been unconscious (in the past). Maybe you always have been conscious, and you simply do not remember, or maybe your consciousness build a gap and jump the time.
The point is that you have no way to experience unconsciousness and be sure that it really exists.
If consciousness does not exist on its own then you fall in A1) or A2).
By the power of Occam, one should first consider that consciousness is merely thought. There is no need to postulate any other phenomenon, force, or field.
Ronan,
If you eliminate A3, then A1 may then fall quickly as well.
What case can be made that A3 might be possible or real?
Almost, only A2 would truly qualify, A1 includes a requirement for consciousness to be separate and potentially independent and hence overlaps with A3.
If you eliminate A3, then A1 may then fall quickly as well.
What case can be made that A3 might be possible or real?
Right
A3 has to be true if A1) and A2) fail to be true
The brain is what it is, consciousness is what it does.
No, why do you suddenly not follow Occam razor and jump on the existence of brain, you have no right to do that, not now at least.
You have to justify your point.
Justify that the brain exists and it the source of thought? That much is known.
I can think of a better use for a razor. I have told you before but you will not accept it. Consciousness is a by-producy of cerebral activity. No brain, no consciousness. Prove otherwise
if no unconscious substance can give rise to consciousness (in other word if A1)and A2 are prove to be false) (for example if the hard problem is proved to be unsolvable)
then consciousness has to exists on its own because then no unconscious substance can make consciousness existing(A3)
almost the same as spidergoat, you assume the existence of brain,
you have to prove that first.
remember we doubted everything that is possible to doubt. we were then left with consciousness.
Did you follow the thread?
We first ask to doubt everything including our current perceptions and knowledge that could be in fact false (dreaming, mistake,...)
And we concluded that only consciousness can be sure to exist.
So we are not yet at the brain level which is supposed to rely on an unconscious substance. So to prove the role of the brain as a generator of consciousness you have to prove A1 or A2 first
Ronan,
If consciousness is an emergent property then there are no two types of substance, only one. For example before a house is built the materials are just piles of bricks and timber. By rearranging them in a particular manner a house can be built and from that a home is formed. The home is an emergent property of the materials that made it. The materials are still materials, the bricks cannot be called un-homed bricks or homed-bricks, they remain bricks. The continued existence of the home (essentially open spaces) remains totally dependent on its supporting materials, remove them and the home vanishes.
With this in mind we can revise your list of assumptions.
C1 – Consciousness is an emergent property of appropriate materials arranged in a particular manner.
C2 – Consciousness has an unknown cause that we have yet to imagine.
C3 – Consciousness has no cause.
C1 is the hard problem.
C2 you cannot ignore since we don’t know enough about consciousness to be able to determine its cause.
C3 is not the default conclusion if C1 is not true. This also defies current observations that complexity always results from simpler components.
I do not know what you mean by unconscious substance. The implication is that there is conscious substance and unconscious substance. I have no idea what those things would be.
If consciousness is an emergent property then there are no two types of substance, only one. For example before a house is built the materials are just piles of bricks and timber. By rearranging them in a particular manner a house can be built and from that a home is formed. The home is an emergent property of the materials that made it. The materials are still materials, the bricks cannot be called un-homed bricks or homed-bricks, they remain bricks. The continued existence of the home (essentially open spaces) remains totally dependent on its supporting materials, remove them and the home vanishes.
With this in mind we can revise your list of assumptions.
C1 – Consciousness is an emergent property of appropriate materials arranged in a particular manner.
C2 – Consciousness has an unknown cause that we have yet to imagine.
C3 – Consciousness has no cause.
C1 is the hard problem.
C2 you cannot ignore since we don’t know enough about consciousness to be able to determine its cause.
C3 is not the default conclusion if C1 is not true. This also defies current observations that complexity always results from simpler components.
The unconscious substance is the matter believed to be the cause of consciousness
The brick are said to be unconscious , this is the unconscious substance.
this physical monism has to explain how consciousness could arise from unconscious matter. If it is proven that it cannot, then it has to be abandoned
It is the hard problem because the matter is said to be unconscious
C2 is not there: if the cause is not consciousness then it is an unconscious substance.
your unknown cause has to be conscious or not conscious
if it is conscious it is A3 else it is A2
C3 is the default conclusion because if an unconscious substance can not give rise to consciousness (the hard problem) then consciousness has to arise form a conscious substance (consciousness).