Atheism and political apathy

[CptBork]

Duh, that goes for all and any atheist leader who killed millions of people to form an officially atheist state.

No, because as you yourself pointed out, many of these "atheist" leaders can be shown to have harboured various supernatural, unscientific beliefs of their own.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, like many Muslim Sunni leaders with kingdoms, which are, you know, anti-Islamic.

 

[Simon Anders]

Yeah, just like atheists in the US privately hold their views in governance. Whose fault is that?

Wow. Even a foreigner might have noticed enough to see the above view is polemic. A person claiming to be an atheist would have a very hard time getting into office. Certainly the presidency is off limits. Mere lip service is not enough. You damn well had better have been going to church for years. That the atheists have the main power and yet keep up this facade is a very strange theory.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not in India, atheists are openly sworn into office. The last government had 13 atheists in a 29 men cabinet.

 

[Asguard]

sam i love your avatar
its so cute

 

[Simon Anders]

Not in India, atheists are openly sworn into office. The last government had 13 atheists in a 29 men cabinet.

OK, not in India. I was referring to what you said about the US.

But as far as India. Have they cut back on public expression of religion? Seems like the resistance would be beyond belief, given how expressive some Indian religious practices have tended to be. I mean in the US the whole thing is generally closing in in buildings and kind of dour and heavy - with some exceptions like gospel singing.

 

[S.A.M.]

OK, not in India. I was referring to what you said about the US.

But as far as India. Have they cut back on public expression of religion? Seems like the resistance would be beyond belief, given how expressive some Indian religious practices have tended to be. I mean in the US the whole thing is generally closing in in buildings and kind of dour and heavy - with some exceptions like gospel singing.

Are you kidding???? We enjoy religion and all its baggage far too much to "cut back" on it. Gee.

I think we're slightly more westernised than we used to be, but it takes only a little persuasion to break us loose.

sam i love your avatar
its so cute

Thanks yeah I fell in love at first sight.

 

[Simon Anders]

Are you kidding???? We enjoy religion and all its baggage far too much to "cut back" on it. Gee.

I pretty much said I would be surprised if those atheists managed to curtail public expression. I mean that was the idea of this thread.

Sometimes I am not sure if you remember what you say. Then if you Indians are managing to do peachy in terms of religious expression even with atheists then perhaps the thesis of this thread is off.

Atheists sometimes do a lot and love power and change things.
Atheists sometimes do very little and avoid power and don't change things much.

Oddly, very much like other groups of people.

Every group seems capable of following a higher good into mass murder.
Every group has members who are tolerant, even some who are less stuffy and superior than that word tends to imply.

 

[James R]

SAM:

Sure, but religion is more than God. If you don't give your children roots, they'll just drift around aimlessly.

There's no need to root your children in belief in sky fairies. No doubt you're still worried about morals. There's really no evidence that the people in secular societies are any less moral than those in religious ones.

Its all intermingled. Religious groups are more likely to be politically involved, since there is greater social involvement.

Why do you think there has been an upsurge in atheism lately, especially in the United States? Answer: it is a reaction against extremist religion. Most atheists are tolerant of other beliefs, up to the point where they start to impose themselves on non-believers. Then, they start to get touchy.

What do atheists do? What has Dawkins contributed?

Dawkins has been a leader in promoting education, particularly in science. He has also made significant contributions to biology. I'm not sure about his charitable donations and the like, but I do know that he has set up an educational foundation.

I would sooner send my kids for mass than to one of Dawkins anti-religion tirades. Hatred for people's beliefs is not a quality to be encouraged.

You're encouraging exactly that by indoctrinating your kids by forcing them to attend mass, are you not?

Religious groups have a different focus. They are intent on providing a service or a contribution.

There aren't too many atheist groups. It would be like forming a club of people who don't collect stamps.

 

[Asguard]

Sam did you read my post. The biggest political movement IN THE WORLD is the trade union movement which (though it has religious members) is a NON RELIGIOUS based political advocasy group

 

[Asguard]

amnasty international is another non religious group who most definitly DO surport religious freedom but most certainly NOT religious dominiation

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM:
There's no need to root your children in belief in sky fairies. No doubt you're still worried about morals. There's really no evidence that the people in secular societies are any less moral than those in religious ones.

Sure, but I see more aimlessness and less conviction in them.

Why do you think there has been an upsurge in atheism lately, especially in the United States? Answer: it is a reaction against extremist religion. Most atheists are tolerant of other beliefs, up to the point where they start to impose themselves on non-believers. Then, they start to get touchy.

Which explains why there has been an upsurge in theism in China, Japan, Russia, Cambodia, etc, I suppose.

Dawkins has been a leader in promoting education, particularly in science. He has also made significant contributions to biology. I'm not sure about his charitable donations and the like, but I do know that he has set up an educational foundation.

How exactly has he promoted education in science? Can you give me concrete examples? What policy has been implemented through his efforts?

You're encouraging exactly that by indoctrinating your kids by forcing them to attend mass, are you not?

No, I attended mass myself for several years and not once did I hear any priest preach intolerance to anyone.

There aren't too many atheist groups. It would be like forming a club of people who don't collect stamps.

No, not really.
http://richarddawkins.net/article,1471,The-Out-Campaign,Richard-Dawkins

http://www.atheists.org/affiliation/

I couldn't find one for people who don't collect stamps, can you?

I pretty much said I would be surprised if those atheists managed to curtail public expression. I mean that was the idea of this thread.

Sometimes I am not sure if you remember what you say. Then if you Indians are managing to do peachy in terms of religious expression even with atheists then perhaps the thesis of this thread is off.

Atheists sometimes do a lot and love power and change things.
Atheists sometimes do very little and avoid power and don't change things much.

Oddly, very much like other groups of people.

Every group seems capable of following a higher good into mass murder.
Every group has members who are tolerant, even some who are less stuffy and superior than that word tends to imply.

Indian religion encompasses atheism and agnosticism as philosophies about God. So Indian atheism is not comparable to western atheism.

Sam did you read my post. The biggest political movement IN THE WORLD is the trade union movement which (though it has religious members) is a NON RELIGIOUS based political advocasy group

We have trade unions in India its a product of capitalistic socialism, not atheism.

 

[CptBork]

I was just thinking about how you wanted examples of atheists standing up for basic religious freedoms. This is sciforums.com, how could we forget about dear 'ole Albert Einstein?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah yes, of course, his concept of God is very much like those of the Advaita school of Indian philosophy.

 

[CptBork]

I don't know what the Advaita school preaches, but Einstein made it clear in his writings that God was nothing more than a mystery to him, an untouchable something underlying the mathematical workings of the universe. I've never heard him describe God as a divine, conscious entity who rules over the workings of mankind and sets down commandments upon them.

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe you should look up the Advaita Vedanta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_philosophy

 

[CptBork]

I've already beaten you to the punch, checking it out now...

 

[CptBork]

Well from what little I now know of Advaita Vedanta, I can see how some philosophical parallels can be drawn between it and Einstein's reasoning. It looks to me like there may be some notable differences though; if I understand correctly, the Advaita school advocates that the world is illusory; unless this just means our perception of the world is imperfect, I think Einstein would be more prone to believing that the world we see is at least somewhat based on the actual reality. Einstein would doubtlessly be open-minded enough to admit he could be living in a dream, but I don't see any indications that he took this idea very seriously.

 

[James R]

SAM:

Sure, but I see more aimlessness and less conviction in them.

What makes you think conviction is such a great thing? Suicide bombers all have lots of conviction.

Which explains why there has been an upsurge in theism in China, Japan, Russia, Cambodia, etc, I suppose.

Are you sure there has been an upsurge in theism in those places? Or could it be that theism has always been there, but in some cases it has been driven underground and is only now gradually gaining the confidence to come out again?

How exactly has [Dawkins] promoted education in science? Can you give me concrete examples? What policy has been implemented through his efforts?

Dawkins has written many books on science, both for professionals and non-professionals. He has made television programmes explaining science. He continually gives lectures about science. He is a famous science populariser, and has done a lot of promote science in the public consciousness.

How could you not know this?

No, I attended mass myself for several years and not once did I hear any priest preach intolerance to anyone.

No discussion of sinners, then? No discussion of what the church considers right and wrong? Your priest must have been exceptional.

No, not really.

http://www.atheists.org/affiliation/

I couldn't find one for people who don't collect stamps, can you?

I think that these groups come together for reasons other than their atheism. Many atheists find that they share views on other matters, for some reason. Maybe it's the fact that many atheists reach their conclusion through training or education in scientific and logical thinking. Or, maybe it's because once you lose your religious blinkers you start to see the world in a particular way. Or maybe it's something else... *shrug*

 

[Simon Anders]

Indian religion encompasses atheism and agnosticism as philosophies about God. So Indian atheism is not comparable to western atheism.
.

Why did you bring up the Indian atheists then? Either you don't quite know what you are doing or you are intentionally slippery? If they are not like Western atheists it was a useless tangent, a distraction. I suppose you feel justified in a context like this where your views are challenging the norms of many of the atheists here, but it is exasperating. You just shift. You don't acknowledge. You rephrase in significant ways AS IF it were the same which implies that I've said something I've not. You ask abstract questions a la plato that don't quite fit what has gone before. I give up you win.

atheists have done unbelievable political damage and many bad things actively and with intent.
atheism leads to political apathy.

I hold these both to be true. You have convinced me.

The cake you will always also have must taste good.
bye.