At what point, from conception does a ''phetus'' become a human being?

[Jan Ardena]

James R,

If you didn't ignore my first reply, you'd know that I answered the question in the thread title in that reply. To repeat: a foetus is a human being from the moment of conception.

I did, which is why I asked if abortion was murder.
Your answer basically complied with the law and left it at that.

A foetus does not, however, have the same rights as an adult at conception. A foetus is not a [enc]person[/enc] at conception (actually it's not even a foetus, but let's not split hairs).

If it is a human being, why shouldn't it have the same right of any human?

What's the moral significance of the category "human being"?

Becaue I'm a human being, and have empathy for a fellow human being.

Yes. Do you think an embryo is therefore the same as a baby, toddler, adult?

Do you think the teenager is the same as an old-age pensioner?

jan.

 

[Arioch]

@Jan Ardena --

If it is a human being, why shouldn't it have the same right of any human?

Because we've never, in our entire history, granted all human beings the same rights. Not once has this been the case. Special circumstances require special consideration in all things.

 

[Jan Ardena]

@Jan Ardena --



Because we've never, in our entire history, granted all human beings the same rights. Not once has this been the case. Special circumstances require special consideration in all things.

I'm not really talking about the history of the world, just cultures where arbortion is legal.

jan.

 

[Arioch]

@Jan --

Doesn't matter. Never have all human beings had the same rights, and with good reason as I've already explained.

 

[fedr808]

Isn't a fetus a parasite until its actually born? It can't feed itself nor can it dispose of waste.

 

[Jan Ardena]

@Jan --

Doesn't matter. Never have all human beings had the same rights, and with good reason as I've already explained.

So a fetus is not afforded the same right as its fellow human beings because ''never has all human being had the same rights''?

jan.

 

[Arioch]

@Jan --

Perhaps I should elaborate further.

You are calling for a drastic change in our society, calling us to give all human beings the same rights. You are saying that we need to start giving fetuses, children, felons, and others the same rights as a full citizen. This is unprecedented and a valid(read logical) reason must be given to justify this drastic reordering of our society.

Now, I've already highlighted vastly good reasons why we do not grant all humans equal rights, so the burden of proof is on you now.

 

[Jan Ardena]

@Jan --

Perhaps I should elaborate further.

You are calling for a drastic change in our society, calling us to give all human beings the same rights. You are saying that we need to start giving fetuses, children, felons, and others the same rights as a full citizen. This is unprecedented and a valid(read logical) reason must be given to justify this drastic reordering of our society.

Now, I've already highlighted vastly good reasons why we do not grant all humans equal rights, so the burden of proof is on you now.

I'm not calling for anything, I just asked you a simple question.
I'm not arguing with you.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Isn't a fetus a parasite until its actually born? It can't feed itself nor can it dispose of waste.

For it to be a parasite does it need to be a different species?

jan.

 

[wynn]

I'm not really talking about the history of the world, just cultures where arbortion is legal.

One reason for legalizing certain activities or substances in some countries is that more harm is caused if they are illegal than if they are legal, and the Law tries to prevent greater harm.

For example, alcohol is legal in effect also because practice showed that making it illegal does not stop or even reduce its production and consumption (and the socio-economic problems related to alcohol production and consumption).

Some activities, albeit questionable from the moral or health standpoint, may be so prevalent in a society that it would be unrealistic to outlaw them; hence the Law only tries to regulate them.

With alcohol being legal, at least the State has some measure of control over its quality and earns from taxing it.

Similar goes for abortion.

 

[wynn]

So a fetus is not afforded the same right as its fellow human beings because ''never has all human being had the same rights''?

The abortion debate involves many factors, and it would not be adequate to reduce it to just one.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Ah, VI injecting a little reality into things.
How you doing?

I'm good! *HUGS*! How are you?

 

[spidergoat]

Here's an example I think we can all relate to.

An expectant mother, who very much wants her child is murdered. Is it legally considered a double murder?

If it isn't I think it should be.

Yes, but only because she had every expectation of carrying that child to term and she was deprived of this potential. This would apply even if the fetus was stabbed and the mother survived.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

expectation of carrying that child to term

That was the exact point I was tying to make. When the responsible adults want and expect that pregnancy to produce a new person. Then any crime committed which causes harm to the fetus, should be treated as a crime against a person with the rights of a citizen.

 

[wynn]

That was the exact point I was tying to make. When the responsible adults want and expect that pregnancy to produce a new person. Then any crime committed which causes harm to the fetus, should be treated as a crime against a person with the rights of a citizen.

This is what can happen, yes - as someone said earlier:

When does it become a human being? When someone cares about it. These days, sometimes that doesn't even happen after it leaves the womb...

Like they say -
You're nobody till somebody loves you.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena,

I did, which is why I asked if abortion was murder.
Your answer basically complied with the law and left it at that.

No. I covered both the legal and moral question - something I have now addressed twice already.

If it is a human being, why shouldn't it have the same right of any human?

Because different humans have different rights. I don't see you arguing that 13 year old children ought to be allowed to vote, for example.

Becaue I'm a human being, and have empathy for a fellow human being.

Yes, but I'm sure you don't have the same empathy for all human beings. How much empathy do you have for serial killers, for example?

Do you think the teenager is the same as an old-age pensioner?

No. And I again mention the example of the right to vote, which is different for a 13-year-old teenager than it is for a 75-year-old pensioner.

 

[fedr808]

Human beings don't have any rights at all.

Lets not delude ourselves otherwise. Do you think humans have some sort of G-d given right to life?

What a joke.

 

[fedr808]

For it to be a parasite does it need to be a different species?

jan.

No.

 

[Big Chiller]

Jan Ardena,



No. I covered both the legal and moral question - something I have now addressed twice already.



Because different humans have different rights. I don't see you arguing that 13 year old children ought to be allowed to vote, for example.



Yes, but I'm sure you don't have the same empathy for all human beings. How much empathy do you have for serial killers, for example?



No. And I again mention the example of the right to vote, which is different for a 13-year-old teenager than it is for a 75-year-old pensioner.

Human rights and what you're speaking of above about different age groups or being a criminal are unrelated topics. Being recognized a human being are despite such differences. So the right to vote is not like being recognized as human at all.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

At what point, from conception does a ''phetus'' become a human being?

Discuss...

jan.

At the moment the sperm fertilises the egg the two seperate things change. The cells are "animated" and what they are changes- from the moment that change occurs what you have is not an egg and a cell with the potential to become a human being, but a human being with the potential to be a doctor, a parent, or a scientist.