At Rest with our Hubble view

Disagree with me that all laws should always apply?
I think that is a lie.
There is something else here
to which when you get near
you can not bear to surmise
the fact is surprising
it lacks all uprising
when one flaw in assumptions arise
The laws must always apply

So get on your horse and quit sniveling retorts
The first to find an example of where all laws lie
becomes a preamble twinkle in my eye.
 
Layman

You can't look through a telescope and then see an opaque surface from the Big Bang.

No, you can look from a telescope and see the radiation released from the opaque early Universe when the temperature dropped so that protons and electrons could join to form atoms. This was the first light of the Universe, before that the Universe was invisible to us.

You seem unwilling to accept that the furthest we can see from Hubble is distance galaxies traveling close to the speed of light that then increase in number the more you zoom in on small areas, beyond that there is nothing but darkness and CMB radiation.

You seem unable to understand that the furthest/oldest thing we can see(the CMB, the OLDEST thing VISIBLE in the Universe) is NOT receding from us at apparent light speed, YET(we can still see it). Nor do you seem to know that everything else in the Universe is between that first light and us, meaning they are not as far back in time as the CMB. And since we can see the CMB, we can see everything else in the Universe as we look back in time. We see different places at different distances in time, but we see them all(in principle). Since Dark Energy is continuing to accelerate the rate of expansion, and the CMB is already receding from us at a significant portion of lightspeed there will come a time in the next few billion years when it exceeds apparent lightspeed, at that point it will no longer be visible, even in principle.

The universe just doesn't seem like it would be young enough to even be able to see an opaque surface from a short time after the Big Bang

The light that the surface of last scattering emitted, was emitted when the Universe was ~300,000 years old, it's been coming toward us for 13.7 billion years. We don't live in a 300,000 year old Universe(where the light would quickly disappear in the local area), we live in a Universe that is 13.7 years old, and right there in the telescope, at 13.7 billion years, is that first light, stretched so much by the expansion of space that it is equivalent to about 3 degrees above absolute zero(in the microwave).

Physicists-Claim-Evidence-of-Universe-Before-Big-Bang-2.jpg


This is a spherical projection of the CMB radiation. It's missing one whole dimension and you would actually be dead center looking outward. It's a lot like the rubber sheet that illustrates the bending of space in 2D, it's as close as we can get to visualizing the reality that the Universe contains itself, there is no outside view as there is nothing outside the Universe.

I really don't see how the CMB radiation could be defined as coming from a distance where the expansion is less than the speed of light relative to us, when at that distance we just see galaxies that have already formed

The galaxies we see at that distance are smaller, less organized, more violent and more numerous, none are within a half billion years of the CMB(the first stars formed about 300 million years after the BB). The CMB is the fastest moving(apparent velocity due to expansion), the oldest/furthest in time and distance thing in the Universe. If there is a god and he said "Let there be light" that was the CMB. If we can still see it despite the fact that it is the furthest, fastest moving visible thing in the Universe, then we can see everything else in the Universe with good enough equipment. We will see the further parts as they were when the Universe was young, we will see closer things closer to our own time, and we will see the light that left our own sun in about 8 minutes(the moon is approximately 1 second away in the dimension of time). In other words we will see them in the dimension of time, where time is a distance.(we cannot see the size of the Universe in space as it is today, what we see is an illusion caused by the dimension of time).

And, to further confuse you, the furthest things were the smallest things when they released the photons that we see. All those small galaxies you see around 13 billion years ago occupied a much smaller volume than they appear to today, and today's Universe is larger. That extra dimension that is so hard to conceive turns the whole Universe inside out. The centerpoint of the Universe is the source of time, and everything else is further and further in the past as you look in any direction. And that centerpoint(the now)is where every point in the Universe sees itself occupying, seeing the past radiating out from it further and further and closer and closer to the beginning(once smaller than an orange). Beyond a certain distance, nothing you see exists any longer, at least in it's original form. Another consequence of that inconceivable extra dimension.

Did that help?

It seems like you are missing part of the big picture from the Hubble view

Really?

Grumpy:cool:
 
Space does not expand
can not hold it in your hand
can not stretch the ides of truth
even with nihil as proof
expansion is some fraud-ulation
of a static minds recreation
the matter you can hold
as you have all been told
is made from positives and negatives
the further these points meet
the less they act as heat
of all contingent waller
It could be said we are getting smaller
 
What I see with my own eyes is that there is no "rainbow effect" when it comes to gravitational light deflection; in other words, said deflection is not frequency dependent. Hence we are not dealing with refraction here, and thus the speed of light cannot be different closer to a massive body than it is far away from same body. You can give as many textual quotes as you like, but that very straightforward fact ( i.e. absence of frequency dependency ) rules out any "inhomogeneous space". It is quite simply contrary to observation. On the other hand, all these phenomena ( light deflection and clock rates ) are in perfect accordance with curved space-time. Go figure.
Again, that's a straw man argument. You've merely repeated it instead of addressing my reductio ad absurdum argument and the references therein to Einstein and hard scientific evidence. That's dismissal and denial Markus. We expect better than that in physics.

No reply necessary.
 
Again, that's a straw man argument. You've merely repeated it instead of addressing my reductio ad absurdum argument and the references therein to Einstein and hard scientific evidence. That's dismissal and denial Markus. We expect better than that in physics.

No reply necessary.

So you are denying that "inhomogeneous space" involves any changes in the speed of light ?

You did not present any argument that needed to be addressed, or that could be ignored or dismissed; you have been shown that your interpretation of things is contrary to observational evidence, and you have yet to respond to that.

So is there a varying speed of light, or is there not ? If there is, you will need to explain to us in detail why we don't see the frequency dependency which inevitably comes with such a variation in c; for once spare us the quotes and give us some real physics !

Again, that's a straw man argument.

Can you explain in detail how refraction due to a supposedly varying speed of light is a straw man argument ?
 
So you are denying that "inhomogeneous space" involves any changes in the speed of light?
No. I'm saying the speed of light is not constant in the region of space where a gravitational field is. As you know, the coordinate speed of light varies in a non-inertial reference frame such as a gravitational field. You are incorrectly placing the emphasis on the locally-measured speed of light. It's always measured to be the same because of the wave nature of matter. When you use wave speed to define your second and your metre, you will always measure wave speed to be 299,792,458 m/s. And because the second at one elevation is not the same as the second at another, you know that one 299,792,458 m/s is not the same as another.

You did not present any argument that needed to be addressed, or that could be ignored or dismissed; you have been shown that your interpretation of things is contrary to observational evidence, and you have yet to respond to that.
I referred to observational evidence in the guise of optical clocks, and previously I referred to the Shapiro delay.

Markus Hanke said:
So is there a varying speed of light, or is there not?
Yes.

Markus Hanke said:
If there is, you will need to explain to us in detail why we don't see the frequency dependency which inevitably comes with such a variation in c; for once spare us the quotes and give us some real physics!
I always give you real physics. Here's some: c in vacuum is the same as c in glass. I suggest you do some research on this. Ask around. Hopefully you will then appreciate why yours was a straw-man argument.

Can you explain in detail how refraction due to a supposedly varying speed of light is a straw man argument ?[/QUOTE]
 
I always give you real physics. Here's some: c in vacuum is the same as c in glass. I suggest you do some research on this. Ask around. Hopefully you will then appreciate why yours was a straw-man argument.
You have never, ever offered any physics in your life, save for the few times when people have found gross errors in your mathematics.

Why don't you try now and show us a simple example of the bending of light around a single star, using your varying speed of light, for blue frequency light and for red frequency light.
 
Layman



No, you can look from a telescope and see the radiation released from the opaque early Universe when the temperature dropped so that protons and electrons could join to form atoms. This was the first light of the Universe, before that the Universe was invisible to us.



You seem unable to understand that the furthest/oldest thing we can see(the CMB, the OLDEST thing VISIBLE in the Universe) is NOT receding from us at apparent light speed, YET(we can still see it). Nor do you seem to know that everything else in the Universe is between that first light and us, meaning they are not as far back in time as the CMB. And since we can see the CMB, we can see everything else in the Universe as we look back in time. We see different places at different distances in time, but we see them all(in principle). Since Dark Energy is continuing to accelerate the rate of expansion, and the CMB is already receding from us at a significant portion of lightspeed there will come a time in the next few billion years when it exceeds apparent lightspeed, at that point it will no longer be visible, even in principle.



The light that the surface of last scattering emitted, was emitted when the Universe was ~300,000 years old, it's been coming toward us for 13.7 billion years. We don't live in a 300,000 year old Universe(where the light would quickly disappear in the local area), we live in a Universe that is 13.7 years old, and right there in the telescope, at 13.7 billion years, is that first light, stretched so much by the expansion of space that it is equivalent to about 3 degrees above absolute zero(in the microwave).

Physicists-Claim-Evidence-of-Universe-Before-Big-Bang-2.jpg


This is a spherical projection of the CMB radiation. It's missing one whole dimension and you would actually be dead center looking outward. It's a lot like the rubber sheet that illustrates the bending of space in 2D, it's as close as we can get to visualizing the reality that the Universe contains itself, there is no outside view as there is nothing outside the Universe.



The galaxies we see at that distance are smaller, less organized, more violent and more numerous, none are within a half billion years of the CMB(the first stars formed about 300 million years after the BB). The CMB is the fastest moving(apparent velocity due to expansion), the oldest/furthest in time and distance thing in the Universe. If there is a god and he said "Let there be light" that was the CMB. If we can still see it despite the fact that it is the furthest, fastest moving visible thing in the Universe, then we can see everything else in the Universe with good enough equipment. We will see the further parts as they were when the Universe was young, we will see closer things closer to our own time, and we will see the light that left our own sun in about 8 minutes(the moon is approximately 1 second away in the dimension of time). In other words we will see them in the dimension of time, where time is a distance.(we cannot see the size of the Universe in space as it is today, what we see is an illusion caused by the dimension of time).

And, to further confuse you, the furthest things were the smallest things when they released the photons that we see. All those small galaxies you see around 13 billion years ago occupied a much smaller volume than they appear to today, and today's Universe is larger. That extra dimension that is so hard to conceive turns the whole Universe inside out. The centerpoint of the Universe is the source of time, and everything else is further and further in the past as you look in any direction. And that centerpoint(the now)is where every point in the Universe sees itself occupying, seeing the past radiating out from it further and further and closer and closer to the beginning(once smaller than an orange). Beyond a certain distance, nothing you see exists any longer, at least in it's original form. Another consequence of that inconceivable extra dimension.

Did that help?



Really?

Grumpy:cool:
That's pretty good Grumpy. Big Bang Theory says specific things that are the consensus of the scientific community, and as your post exemplifies, some of those things are not intuitive. This thread is not intended to argue against BBT, it is to discuss the most compelling evidence of BBT, and that evidence is the raw redshift data, and the measurement of the CMB in all directions. BBT is not inconsistent with that observational evidence, and on top of that it is quantified with the math of General Relativity that has a remarkable degree of accuracy.

In addition, the thread contains a timeline of important scientific advancements since 1915 which have had to be accommodated, and those things include the redshift, the CMB, and an accelerating expansion. The accommodation of those discoveries has lead to some arguments within the scientific community, but aside from what BBT actually is theorizing, there is the whole body of work related to Quantum Mechanics, which is at best inconsistent with the best of BBT.

It is nice to see the thread address alternative views, but often the statements presented that are inconsistent with Big Bang Theory don't always carry a disclaimer or an acknowledgement of the fact that they are not consistent with the consensus. But beyond that, there is the whole matter of BBT vs. Quantum Mechanics.

I would like to toss that into the discussion and see if anyone would be willing to give me a good (brief and in your own words) analysis of the inconsistency between GR and QM, and/or say how you think that inconsistency will be resolved?
 
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You are incorrectly placing the emphasis on the locally-measured speed of light.

For the third time now - I am talking about gravitational light deflection, as in us here on Earth watching a ray of light just grazing past the sun ( or any other massive body ). This has nothing to do with local measurements, but everything with us not seeing a frequency dependency over a global light ray trajectory.

I always give you real physics. Here's some: c in vacuum is the same as c in glass. I suggest you do some research on this. Ask around. Hopefully you will then appreciate why yours was a straw-man argument.

The speed of light in glass is the same as the speed of light in vacuum only locally in any microscopically small neighbourhood, i.e. in the space between the atoms making up the glass. It is not however the same on scales much larger than these atoms. This is why a ( macroscopically large ) glass prism refracts a light ray, turning it into a pretty little rainbow. You can easily do this experiment at home.
Same in gravitational light deflection - if the speed of light varied with the radial coordinate from the massive body, then different frequencies would be deflected at different angles over the macroscopic distance the light ray travels ( e.g. from a distant source past the sun to an Earth-bound observer ). This is not what we observe, hence the speed of light never varies, neither locally nor globally. Light deflection is due to space-time curvature, nothing more and nothing less. The speed of light is always constant.

This is not a strawman, this is physics.

Talking about physics - can you give us the equation which governs the values for permittivity and permeabiliy as a function of the radial coordinate. This should be interesting...
 
...

This is not a strawman, this is physics.
It is physics theory that is intended to explain observations. I know that there is always the comeback that "claiming it is only theory" is one of the signs of quackery, but the observation is fact, the explanation is consensus theory, and there are alternative theories that are also consistent with the observational evidence. Please acknowledge that fact, or come back with the quack comment if you prefer, lol.
 
quantum_wave

It was when I finally realized that time was a distance just like a distance in length and that we see the Universe in 2D of space and 1D of time(the 3rd dimension of space, distance in space, is not visible in real time which makes little difference in terms of our normal experience(the difference is tiny there), but makes a profound difference in what we see in the Universe(we see what was, not what is))that I began to see some of these things. In the interest of complete accuracy and precision, what I am saying is a simplification, it takes complex math to really describe the effects and that kind of math gives me migranes(that's the main reason I taught High School Physics instead of going further). And all bets are off on the other side of any event horizon.

Grumpy:cool:
 
The accommodation of those discoveries has lead to some arguments within the scientific community, but aside from what BBT actually is theorizing, there is the whole body of work related to Quantum Mechanics, with is at best inconsistent with the best of BBT.

WTF are you talking about?
 
Given that contemporary cosmology relies on and has helped advanced quantum theory, it is news to me that these fields are in gross conflict with one another.
As the thread originator, I have directed this thread toward a discussion of the standard cosmological consensus, which I have defined as Big Bang Theory with Inflation. Big Bang Theory with Inflation consists of General Relativity, Inflationary Theory, and the Cosmological Principle; I stated that before and there has been a little discussion about exactly what the theory says.

You, having done you graduate work in Cosmology, seem to ignore it when the specifics of BBT are described, preferring to allude to a broader view of cosmology that is current, perhaps more on a professional level, unhindered by the restraints of a precise theory, but instead, encompassing an unfolding adventure of discovery and theoretical physics which is contemporary cosmology?

Are you willing to acknowledge my intentions for a discussion on the topic of what the consensus theory says, trying to nail it down so that comparisons can be made with alternatives. Or is that beneath your sensibilities, being as how you have done some graduate work in Cosmology? Do you find it possible to make any distinction between the cosmological consensus called Big Bang Theory with Inflation, and contemporary cosmology? Do you deny that the well known topic of the inconsistency between GR and QM is worth bringing up after a lengthy discussion of BBT and its main pillar, GR, which describes gravity as the curvature of spacetime? Or do you believe that quantum gravity and GR are compatible?

There are endless links to discussions of the inconsistencies, but here is a quote from one of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity
"Much of the difficulty in meshing these theories at all energy scales comes from the different assumptions that these theories make on how the universe works. Quantum field theory depends on particle fields embedded in the flat space-time of special relativity. General relativity models gravity as a curvature within space-time that changes as a gravitational mass moves."
 
I am talking about gravitational light deflection, as in us here on Earth watching a ray of light just grazing past the sun ( or any other massive body ). This has nothing to do with local measurements, but everything with us not seeing a frequency dependency over a global light ray trajectory.



The speed of light in glass is the same as the speed of light in vacuum only locally in any microscopically small neighbourhood, i.e. in the space between the atoms making up the glass. It is not however the same on scales much larger than these atoms. This is why a ( macroscopically large ) glass prism refracts a light ray, turning it into a pretty little rainbow. You can easily do this experiment at home.

Same in gravitational light deflection - if the speed of light varied with the radial coordinate from the massive body, then different frequencies would be deflected at different angles over the macroscopic distance the light ray travels ( e.g. from a distant source past the sun to an Earth-bound observer ). This is not what we observe, hence the speed of light never varies, neither locally nor globally. Light deflection is due to space-time curvature,

Hi guys, interesting discussion.

Markus, Farsight, can you explain naively to me why a proposed variable lightspeed and varying lightfrequency would result in a "rainbow" (frequency spectrum spread) effect along a variously conditioned space path?

Doesn't light of all frequencies travel at a common speed through the same conditioned bit of space?

I mean, even IF the speed of a white light "front" changes, the various light frequencies in the "front" are all changed to the same different "local" lightspeeds as the "front" passes each location along the whole path, doesn't it?

So I don't get why a spectrum-spread of that mixed frequency white light "front" should occur? The whole mixed-frequency light "front" just goes along as a "bunch" (allowing for intensity losses due to "scatter by "gas and dust etc" along the way) at whatever local lightspeed is applicable in any space condition it travels through, doesn't it; arriving at the target/observer as that undifferentiated bunch of white light even IF the speed of that bunch/front has (all together) varied by the same amount at any variation of speed due to space condition?

Thanks again to both of you for your very informative and interesting exchanges/contributions to discussions on this, and many other deep matters, Markus Hanke, Farsight. Have to go. Back tomorrow to read your responses to my respectful naive query.
 
Doesn't light of all frequencies travel at a common speed through the same conditioned bit of space?

Only in vacuum (index of refraction is independent of wavelength and equal to 1). In any refractive medium, the above is not true because the index of refraction is wavelength dependent, $$n=n(\lambda)$$ and he speed of light depends on the index of refraction, $$v=\frac{c}{n}$$ where $$c$$ is the speed of light in vacuum. The difference in light speeds in a refractive medium explains the dispersion according to wavelength.
 
Only in vacuum (index of refraction is independent of wavelength and equal to 1). In any refractive medium, the above is not true because the index of refraction is wavelength dependent, $$n=n(\lambda)$$ and he speed of light depends on the index of refraction, $$v=\frac{c}{n}$$ where $$c$$ is the speed of light in vacuum. The difference in light speeds in a refractive medium explains the dispersion according to wavelength.
Is it true that the wavelength changes but the frequency stays the same?

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/phys/Dept2/APPhys1/optics/optics/node7.html
 
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