Arguments for the soul's existence...

[Sirvas]

I think the soul does not interact with matter (or if it does, it can not be perceived or proved because of its non material nature), i also think the soul has nothing to do with memories or emotions, since these things are just cognitive processes, chemicals, etc.
Now the soul could be just the fact of our existance, it fulfills the "requirements", its eternal, goes beyond the material plane, and these fact or chunk of space/time is real and fits the world of quantum physics, which say that all times are equally real (do the research yourself, to lazy to explain it now, its late here =P) so if you existed one moment, you left a "blueprint" of your existance, now you may say: "Dats d pazt, it iz not real rite naaauuu", wrong, like i said all the times are equally real. That could be the soul, or maybe its soemething thats not material and doesnt affect us in a material way (in other words, no feelings, no emotions, no memories has nothing to do with our soul, it doesnt matter whic of these 2 cases its true, if one of these are true of course). Thats what i think (idea, not belief, just stating a probability).
ps: remember that everything is posible if we say its beyond the material plane (with material plane i mean all the facts, including mind, cognitive processes, etc.), so even the most twisted and, like Q likes to say, mumbo jumbo belief of a god with a white beard with maracas could be true, as long it doesnt iterfere with facts of the material plane (altough even these facts can be questioned because we percieve them, and our perception its not absolute, so almost nothing could be sentenced as completly real or unreal)
there is my grain of knowledge, destroy/re-create/manipulate as you want as long as we find someting that can be called a truth about this theme =D

 

[(Q)]

You believe God/soul does not exist, which of course is your purogative. The problem lies in the fact that you try and force your belief by damning every opposing belief, without actually understanding what their beliefs are based on.
In other words your completely ignorant but want everyone to believe like you.

Here Jan, let me turn this back at you so you can understand how ridiculous your statement is:

"You believe The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, which of course is your purgative. The problem lies in the fact that you try and force your belief by damning every opposing belief, without actually understanding what their beliefs are based on.
In other words your completely ignorant but want everyone to believe like you."

See how it works, Jan?

Being fanatical about something has nothing to do with the actual belief, or non-belief, it is about the attitude of individuals. Your attitude is one of complete intolerence of anything outside your extremely narrow zone of perception. And your insistence that your understanding is right and all others wrong, and failure to even attempt to understand how others percieve life shows that you act like a fanatic.

You perceive life as magical and mystical, full of myth and superstitions, from the perspective of your religion, a religion that has murdered millions and is intolerant to anyone who is not a follower, and I am supposed to tolerate that?

To you and others like you, I doubt it, as I do believe in God, and you are totally intolerent of me (biggots).

No, I am intolerant to the ideology of Christianity, not you, personally. You should at least take the time to understand the difference, Jan.

But I think I have value to offer to someone who is capable of using basic intelligence, instead of some simpleton reactionary mechanism, based on nothing but intolerence.

Yet, you've not shown an ounce of intelligence, as yet.

In every scripture, this is the understanding of what constitutes "soul". This is what is taught, just like we are taught that water has 1 atom of hydrogen and 2 atoms of oxygen.

That's fucking hilarious, Jan. Do you do stand up comedy, too?

So, since you can demonstrate the make up of water, what is the exact make up of the soul and what exactly is the mechanism it uses to interact with the body? Come on, Jan, just like you were taught... hilarious...

Then that is his conclusion .
He cannot prove that they are not possible, he can only assert it because he cannot sensually detect it, neither does he seem capable of understanding why and how it could be possible, but not within the range of the senses.

No Jan, he offers complete and rational explanations, you offer only myth, superstition and magic.

Well if you regard that as "mumbo jumbo" without actually trying to understand what he means, then you are an ignorant fanatic as I stated above.

The fact that LG only spouts "mumbo jumbo" at the best of times has nothing to do with me.

Why do you post in this forum?

When will blockheads try and open their minds?

Actually Jan, you are the blockhead and I post here to point that out.

Learn what the concept is first, then argue against it.
Don't be frightened.
Yours and Boris idea of the soul is a strawman, so please don't bring it up again.

You're such an amazing idiot, Jan. The concept of a soul, as asserted by theists, is not a concept at all, but a faith-based delusion. There is no concept, that is, unless you're able to fully describe a soul?

Can you, Jan?

 

[Woody]

Hello Raven,

A soul is a person's intangible attributes. It includes their emotional aspects, their wants and desires, and their intellect. Animals have some of these qualities as well. The question becomes, then, what of these intangible features might exist after the physical body dies? Obviously they do not continue on in this physical universe, but is this physical universe all of reality?

Many rationally thinking people would agree that this physical universe is not all of reality, because it has not always been here, and came from something else. Nobody knows the aspects of this "other" reality that the universe came from, and there is no way to know it without external influence from outside.

I believed in the never dieing human soul before I ever believed in the form of a supernatural being. How can we know for sure what reality "is"? Ever had a very realistic dream that just seemed so real -- you believed it was real while you were dreaming then woke up to find out it was not?

That's the best way I can describe a spiritual awakening, where this world is a subset of a larger reality, and the "new" information comes from inside, rather than outside. I believe death is the awakening process from this world to the next. I just believe there is an afterlife. My belief is based on what is inside, rather than what is outside.

As the human mind is a subset of this physical universe, this physical universe is a subset of a larger reality. The larger reality is where the soul exists apart from this physical body. I believed this before I ever came to a religion -- that eternality is the only reality.

I have heard quite a few arguments against the existence of a “soul”. Some of them are solid, some are… well… let’s just say that some people perhaps don’t express themselves as well as others. I am really not interested in having someone trying to disprove the existence of the soul to me. If that is your intention, please save your time and effort.

I would like to read people’s arguments - sound, analytical, pragmatic arguments – FOR the existence of a soul – preferably an eternal soul.

I know a lot of people will read this and the first thing that will jump to mind is, “define soul”.
No, YOU define soul.

What I am looking for, essentially, is someone to offer, not proof, not qualified objective evidence, but simply convincing arguments that there is some part of us that exists beyond the simple mind and body. A part that will transcend this physical plane and continue on to Heaven, Nibbana, Shangri-La, what-have-you.

I probably don’t need to say it, but please don’t bother with such inane arguments as, “Well (insert holy book of choice here) says so.”

I am not looking to discount your beliefs. I don’t want to prove you wrong (though I will argue if either it doesn’t fly for me, or I think it is missing something and want to explore it further). I am not looking to score one for the Atheist camp. This is nothing like that. I am working on a book, and want to find a reason that a reasonable pragmatic character who does not subscribe to any religion would believe in an eternal soul and the concept of reincarnation. Since I have never found a solid reason to believe in the soul (though the romantic side of me would LIKE to believe, to be honest) I can’t find a reason for him to believe. I was hoping there was a believer that could help me out. Perhaps even a non-believer that has heard some compelling argument that at least made you take a step back and re-evaluate your position. I want to know what makes this character tick, and why he, who is essentially an Atheist, would believe in the soul.

Thanks for any help you might offer.

 

[Saquist]

I have heard quite a few arguments against the existence of a “soul”. Some of them are solid, some are… well… let’s just say that some people perhaps don’t express themselves as well as others. I am really not interested in having someone trying to disprove the existence of the soul to me. If that is your intention, please save your time and effort.

I would like to read people’s arguments - sound, analytical, pragmatic arguments – FOR the existence of a soul – preferably an eternal soul.

I know a lot of people will read this and the first thing that will jump to mind is, “define soul”.
No, YOU define soul.

What I am looking for, essentially, is someone to offer, not proof, not qualified objective evidence, but simply convincing arguments that there is some part of us that exists beyond the simple mind and body. A part that will transcend this physical plane and continue on to Heaven, Nibbana, Shangri-La, what-have-you.

I probably don’t need to say it, but please don’t bother with such inane arguments as, “Well (insert holy book of choice here) says so.”

I am not looking to discount your beliefs. I don’t want to prove you wrong (though I will argue if either it doesn’t fly for me, or I think it is missing something and want to explore it further). I am not looking to score one for the Atheist camp. This is nothing like that. I am working on a book, and want to find a reason that a reasonable pragmatic character who does not subscribe to any religion would believe in an eternal soul and the concept of reincarnation. Since I have never found a solid reason to believe in the soul (though the romantic side of me would LIKE to believe, to be honest) I can’t find a reason for him to believe. I was hoping there was a believer that could help me out. Perhaps even a non-believer that has heard some compelling argument that at least made you take a step back and re-evaluate your position. I want to know what makes this character tick, and why he, who is essentially an Atheist, would believe in the soul.

Thanks for any help you might offer.

The soul as it is understood in modern times does not exist according to the bible. There is no immaterial part of the human body that survives death.

The bible uses the word Ne'phesh (Hebrew) for soul, "that which breathes" or more precisely "the blood".

The soul according to the bible dies. There are numerous scriptures to support it.

 

[Woody]

You perceive life as magical and mystical, full of myth and superstitions, from the perspective of your religion, a religion that has murdered millions and is intolerant to anyone who is not a follower, and I am supposed to tolerate that?

Can you find anything wrong with someone that lives like the Jesus described in the bible? That character didn't kill anybody, regardless of whether you believe He existed or not. He is still the example. Human failures are just that. The Jesus of the bible not only tolerated them, but tried to help them too. :shrug:

No Jan, he offers complete and rational explanations, you offer only myth, superstition and magic.

The bible offers the ideal example of a human, by the name of Jesus. Can you find anything wrong with somebody that's just like Him? It seems like you are being awfully judgmental and condescending.

You're such an amazing idiot, Jan. The concept of a soul, as asserted by theists, is not a concept at all, but a faith-based delusion. There is no concept, that is, unless you're able to fully describe a soul?

Can you, Jan?

Jesus is the soul that Christians strive to emulate. Is there anything wrong with loving, helping, and ministering to other people unselfishlessly like this personna? By the way, when you start calling people names you have pretty well forfieted your points, however right you may feel you are -- you aren't offering to help them.

 

[Woody]

So tell me, what is the purpose of this forum, other than to lambaste religion? Religion is not a science, and was never meant to be. Religion is an alternative to the emptiness of atheism. It's a second perspective for those who believe, and often it tells us a lot about human nature and human character.

 

[mis-t-highs]

Can you find anything wrong with someone that lives like the Jesus described in the bible? That character didn't kill anybody.
The bible offers the ideal example of a human, by the name of Jesus.

You mean the person that has nothing against people keeping slaves, beating or killing people, including children, dishonours his mother, and steals, etc...

Jesus is the soul that Christians strive to emulate.

Hence why there are, and have been so many killings because of him.

 

[Woody]

You mean the person that has nothing against people keeping slaves, beating or killing people, including children, dishonours his mother, and steals, etc...

Jesus did none of these things. The people that do these things violate His only commandment: that we love one another. I don't think you can blame human failure on Him. I ask again, what's wrong when a person tries to be like the Jesus of the Bible? The Jesus of the Bible, whether you believe He existed or not, did none of these things you mention.

Hence why there are, and have been so many killings because of him.

For the same reason that he was himself killed by religious leaders. The murderers thought they were serving God, and Jesus told them they were only serving themselves. Jesus said love one another, and he helped somebody on the sabbath. What was wrong with that? Did it deserve a death sentence?:shrug:

Personally, I felt a lot more ill will and resentment toward people before I became a Christian, than after. Jesus says forgive, and I try to obey.

Most people would agree that the character, Jesus, portrayed in the Bible is an ideal human type. The question I ask you, is why no human lives up to it? We think we are in control, but we aren't. What's wrong with us?

 

[mis-t-highs]

Jesus did none of these things.

Then I suggest you reread your bible and try not to cherry pick this time.

The people that do these things violate His only commandment:

As did he.

that we love one another. I don't think you can blame human failure on Him.

I don't blame anything on him it is a fictional concept, I 'm only pointing out that this character is not squeeky clean.

I ask again, what's wrong when a person tries to be like the Jesus of the Bible? The Jesus of the Bible, whether you believe He existed or not, did none of these things you mention.

And I give you the same answer "You mean the person that has nothing against people keeping slaves, beating or killing people, including children, dishonours his mother, and steals, etc..."(reread your bible)

Personally, I felt a lot more ill will and resentment toward people before I became a Christian, than after. Jesus says forgive, and I try to obey.

I wouldn't wave that as a flag of goodness, the fact you had ill will towards people and still harbour it under the guise of religion is very telling of your character.
My brother a devote christian said to me "if it wasn't for his fear of god, and love of jesus he could easily kill someone" I said "I hold no such beliefs and could not hurt a fly"
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion" Steven Weinberg
If the bible is a so called book to teach you morality, it is an epic fail.
a book that professes love should not contain words like enemy, kill, beat, slave, etc...

Most people would agree that the character, Jesus, portrayed in the Bible is an ideal human type.

No a majority of christians not most people.

The question I ask you, is why no human lives up to it?

I for one most certainly do not condone killing, beating, slavery, child abuse stealing, or disrepecting my parents, etc.. So why would you think living up to that is a good thing.

 

[(Q)]

Can you find anything wrong with someone that lives like the Jesus described in the bible?

I believe Mis-t-highs is doing a wonderful job at refuting your claims.

 

[Woody]

Then I suggest you reread your bible and try not to cherry pick this time.

ok. Where would you like me to start reading in the bible? It's a long book.

As did he.

If somebody just like Jesus was alive today, would you wish they were dead?

I don't blame anything on him it is a fictional concept,

What do you find wrong with the conduct of this Jesus character. Maybe you could pretend it's like a drama play or something where somebody made up this character named Jesus. In this drama, what's wrong with this character called Jesus?

I 'm only pointing out that this character is not squeeky clean.

but you gave no examples where the Jesus character in the bible, that you believe is fiction, actually did something bad. Until you provide an example, you haven't really made a point in my opinion. And if Jesus didn't say something about a subject, that doesn't automatically mean He approved of it. The argument from silence is really no argument at all.

And I give you the same answer "You mean the person that has nothing against people keeping slaves, beating or killing people, including children, dishonours his mother, and steals, etc..."(reread your bible)

I'm sorry, I read the passages, and Jesus doesn't want me to do these things. I don't think that conduct shows love toward other people. Do you? :shrug:

If you read the bible and you believe it tells you to do these bad things then stay away from the bible, by all means.

I wouldn't wave that as a flag of goodness, the fact you had ill will towards people and still harbour it under the guise of religion is very telling of your character.

I am imperfect, but I have forgiven people. That means I no longer harbour ill feelings toward them for what they did wrong. I feel a lot better as a result. Negative emotions are a bad thing to live with.

My brother a devote christian said to me "if it wasn't for his fear of god, and love of jesus he could easily kill someone" I said "I hold no such beliefs and could not hurt a fly"

Well good for both of you.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion" Steven Weinberg

So what did a Christian do to you personally that leaves you feeling this way? I'd just like to know how you justify your hatred of Christians. What did they do to you?

If the bible is a so called book to teach you morality, it is an epic fail.
a book that professes love should not contain words like enemy, kill, beat, slave, etc... No a majority of christians not most people.I for one most certainly do not condone killing, beating, slavery, child abuse stealing, or disrepecting my parents, etc.. So why would you think living up to that is a good thing.

I'm not taught to do those things, rather the opposite. I guess I just don't fit your stereotype.

 

[Woody]

I believe Mis-t-highs is doing a wonderful job at refuting your claims.

but I asked you.

 

[mis-t-highs]

ok. Where would you like me to start reading in the bible? It's a long book.

Obviously the NT, but do actually read it don't just scan it. And you needn't worry about reading the parables, they are there as jesus said to confuse.

If somebody just like Jesus was alive today, would you wish they were dead?

No, but I would wish him incarcerated for his crimes, unfortunately we cant arrest people for condoning a thing, so the slavery, killings and beatings he condoned, and even the disrespect would go untouched, but the stealing, now thats a different story.

What do you find wrong with the conduct of this Jesus character.

His conduct is not so different to many human being, but as I would not put Saddam Hussain or Hitler or even Bush on a pedestal, nor would I put a person like the jesus character.

Maybe you could pretend it's like a drama play or something where somebody made up this character named Jesus. In this drama, what's wrong with this character called Jesus?

The jesus character is a mix of all the previous god-heroes, so the concept is already a drama play, and all the christian merely drama queens.

but you gave no examples where the Jesus character in the bible, that you believe is fiction, actually did something bad.

What! you want me too educate you, ok but only this once, you do really need to reread your bible. The jesus character broke the 5th (or the 4th if catholic) commandment (KJV, John 2:4) and the 8th (or the 7th if catholic)(KJV, Luke 19:30)

Until you provide an example, you haven't really made a point in my opinion. And if Jesus didn't say something about a subject, that doesn't automatically mean He approved of it. The argument from silence is really no argument at all.

Lol! so to stand by a watch whilst someone his beat to near death and do nothing, doesn't say anything about the persons character, ok got you. lol! (remember that jesus loved his people so much he gave up his life)why was it that he only intervened when it suited the story line.

I'm sorry, I read the passages, and Jesus doesn't want me to do these things. I don't think that conduct shows love toward other people. Do you?

lol! again we are talking about the character of jesus not you.

If you read the bible and you believe it tells you to do these bad things then stay away from the bible, by all means.

When I read the bible I read it with an unbiased view, and most certainly don't believe it tells you anything, it's a book of fiction, belief doesn't come into it. Aesops fables have better moral content.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion" Steven Weinberg

So what did a Christian do to you personally that leaves you feeling this way? I'd just like to know how you justify your hatred of Christians. What did they do to you?

Oh! the arrogance of the christian to think the sun revolves around you. Steven Weinberg stated Religion, we are discussing jesus and if you like christianity. I as every non religious person have no grievance with any religious person be they christian, muslim, hindu. but what I do think is abhorrent is religion per se.

I'm not taught to do those things, rather the opposite. I guess I just don't fit your stereotype.

Well you would be the first, Oh you are special, lol! if jesus appeared to you in a vision, and told you to steal fred's bike or beat your neighbour, etc.. you would do it. and please don't come back and say jesus would never tell me to do that, he told his disciples to.

 

[swivel]

That is a lot of quoting going on there...

 

[Cellar_Door]

Good thread.

A soul is a person's intangible attributes. It includes their emotional aspects, their wants and desires, and their intellect.

I agree. However, if there really is life after death, this same 'soul' must be immortal.

This then creates a rather interesting paradox.

What of those who are involved in accidents and suffer severe personality changes? Or those who lose their long-term memory so irreversibly that they have to be taught to walk and talk again - as if they were infants? Next consider an elderly lady, almost wholly consumed by Alzheimer's disease, and a completely different person to who she was twenty years ago.

These examples prove that our wits, intellect, memory and even entire personality can be damaged irreversibly by disease and injury. This in turn begs the question: is our soul actually mortal? Does it in fact die with us?

 

[Festering Boil]

and please don't come back and say jesus would never tell me to do that, he told his disciples to.

He's saving souls, and kickin' ass!

http://video.google.com/videosearch...sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#

 

[Woody]

Obviously the NT, but do actually read it don't just scan it. And you needn't worry about reading the parables, they are there as jesus said to confuse.

I think they were rather illuminating though they were just analogies.

No, but I would wish him incarcerated for his crimes, unfortunately we cant arrest people for condoning a thing, so the slavery, killings and beatings he condoned, and even the disrespect would go untouched, but the stealing, now thats a different story.

Where did Jesus condone slavery? chapter and verse please.

His conduct is not so different to many human being, but as I would not put Saddam Hussain or Hitler or even Bush on a pedestal, nor would I put a person like the jesus character.The jesus character is a mix of all the previous god-heroes, so the concept is already a drama play, and all the christian merely drama queens.What! you want me too educate you, ok but only this once, you do really need to reread your bible.

I don't think that's it at all. It's really on you to show what you are talking about. I'm not a mind reader.

The jesus character broke the 5th (or the 4th if catholic) commandment (KJV, John 2:4)

Jesus called his mother a woman and then turned water into wine at her request. My step-dad used to call my mother "woman" a lot when he bossed her around.. I can't say that I particularly liked it when he did that.

and the 8th (or the 7th if catholic)(KJV, Luke 19:30)

The colt thing. Jesus apparantly had this worked out before hand with the owners (verses 33 and 34). They agreed. And you told me that cherry picking the verses wasn't allowed. hmmmmm.....

Lol! so to stand by a watch whilst someone his beat to near death and do nothing, doesn't say anything about the persons character, ok got you. lol!

I can't find the verse that says Jesus used his cord whip on the money changers. Can you show it?

(remember that jesus loved his people so much he gave up his life)why was it that he only intervened when it suited the story line.lol!

He saved others but not himself -- yeah I remember -- that's what the self-righteous pharasees said too.

again we are talking about the character of jesus not you.When I read the bible I read it with an unbiased view,

I read the Bible from a biased view -- I'm just being honest.

and most certainly don't believe it tells you anything, it's a book of fiction, belief doesn't come into it.

Yet the Bible tells you to do all these terrible things to people that you keep talking about. I don't have that issue.

Aesops fables have better moral content.Oh!

I liked the fox and the grapes. Good story about human nature. I learned a lot from it

the arrogance of the christian to think the sun revolves around you.

I don't know a christian that thinks that. I don't know anybody that thinks that. Do you think that???

Steven Weinberg stated Religion, we are discussing jesus and if you like christianity.

When you die I don't think he'll be there.

I as every non religious person have no grievance with any religious person be they christian, muslim, hindu. but what I do think is abhorrent is religion per se.

Yet atheists are incredibly outnumbered. Why is atheism so unattractive?

Well you would be the first, Oh you are special, lol!

Forgiveness brings peace. Try it.

if jesus appeared to you in a vision, and told you to steal fred's bike or beat your neighbour, etc.. you would do it.

Jesus can make His own bicycle.

and please don't come back and say jesus would never tell me to do that, he told his disciples to.

He also had a message for the disciples to share with anybody that asked about the colt he borrowed. I'm just reading my bible like you told me. I tried to include everything instead of just cherry picking. I apologize for being honest.

 

[davewhite04]

I have heard quite a few arguments against the existence of a “soul”. Some of them are solid, some are… well… let’s just say that some people perhaps don’t express themselves as well as others. I am really not interested in having someone trying to disprove the existence of the soul to me. If that is your intention, please save your time and effort.

I would like to read people’s arguments - sound, analytical, pragmatic arguments – FOR the existence of a soul – preferably an eternal soul.

I know a lot of people will read this and the first thing that will jump to mind is, “define soul”.
No, YOU define soul.

What I am looking for, essentially, is someone to offer, not proof, not qualified objective evidence, but simply convincing arguments that there is some part of us that exists beyond the simple mind and body. A part that will transcend this physical plane and continue on to Heaven, Nibbana, Shangri-La, what-have-you.

I probably don’t need to say it, but please don’t bother with such inane arguments as, “Well (insert holy book of choice here) says so.”

I am not looking to discount your beliefs. I don’t want to prove you wrong (though I will argue if either it doesn’t fly for me, or I think it is missing something and want to explore it further). I am not looking to score one for the Atheist camp. This is nothing like that. I am working on a book, and want to find a reason that a reasonable pragmatic character who does not subscribe to any religion would believe in an eternal soul and the concept of reincarnation. Since I have never found a solid reason to believe in the soul (though the romantic side of me would LIKE to believe, to be honest) I can’t find a reason for him to believe. I was hoping there was a believer that could help me out. Perhaps even a non-believer that has heard some compelling argument that at least made you take a step back and re-evaluate your position. I want to know what makes this character tick, and why he, who is essentially an Atheist, would believe in the soul.

Thanks for any help you might offer.

There is no convincing material evidence obviously.

What kind of evidence do you want for your book?

If there was any you would make a million.

Why not be more realistic and write a book about how little we know of the brain and how thoughts are generated?

Maybe research ancient texts, because modern science has no place for the soul, and theists explanations are brushed aside as nonsense because of science.

Catch 22.

 

[mis-t-highs]

Where did Jesus condone slavery? chapter and verse please.

Using his analogies as you call them, he does, which would have been the perfect opportunity for jesus to condemn the slavery and its abuse of slaves. Isn't it more telling that he never once does.

I don't think that's it at all. It's really on you to show what you are talking about. I'm not a mind reader.

Shouldn't you have a greater knowledge of the bible than I, if you knew your bible you would know what I was talking about.

Jesus called his mother a woman and then turned water into wine at her request. My step-dad used to call my mother "woman" a lot when he bossed her around.. I can't say that I particularly liked it when he did that.

Exactly it's very demeaning and disrespectful. Thus he breaks the commandment.
Thank you for having the good sense to see that. It's refreshing to find someone of a christian ilk, admit his mistake.

The colt thing. Jesus apparantly had this worked out before hand with the owners (verses 33 and 34). They agreed. And you told me that cherry picking the verses wasn't allowed. hmmmmm.....

lol, so lets see what was said shall we
KJV LUKE 18,29: And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, (note: it never once says that jesus had been to bethphage and bethany before)
30: Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. (Note:lets translate, untie him/take him/steal him.)
31: And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32: And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33: And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? (note:why are you taking my colt/stealing my colt)
34: And they said, The Lord hath need of him. (note:so it seem they stood there dumbfounded, or were beaten down, or anything else but most certainly not through jesus arranging it earlier, unless he sent a message by pony express.)
So we can gather that jesus as the instigator of the crime sent his disciples to steal a colt. it is as clear as day. If it was prearranged then why ask "why are you taking my colt" the owner would know, wouldn't he.

I can't find the verse that says Jesus used his cord whip on the money changers. Can you show it?

Irrelevant strawman. has no bearing on the subject in question, as I said before why was it that he only intervened when it suited the story line. would it have something to do with the authors. I wonder.

He saved others but not himself -- yeah I remember -- that's what the self-righteous pharasees said too.

Was that your attempt at an insult, lol.

I read the Bible from a biased view -- I'm just being honest.

That also would be a first, the religious are basically intellectually dishonest.
But having said they are victims of a mind virus, so it could be a little unfair to call them dishonest, as they haven't got the good sense to know what reality is.

Yet the Bible tells you to do all these terrible things to people that you keep talking about. I don't have that issue.

No the bible tells me nothing it's a book of fiction, I don't use it to guide my life, that would be foolish. and you saying you don't have that issue is a lie, as you do use it to guide your life.

Oh! the arrogance of the christian to think the sun revolves around you. Steven Weinberg stated Religion, we are discussing jesus and if you like christianity. I as every non religious person have no grievance with any religious person be they christian, muslim, hindu. but what I do think is abhorrent is religion per se.

I don't know a christian that thinks that. I don't know anybody that thinks that.

But you do else you would not have said, "So what did a Christian do to you personally that leaves you feeling this way? I'd just like to know how you justify your hatred of Christians. What did they do to you? Do you think that???"

When you die I don't think he'll be there.

Another insult.
Why would I want a fictional character to be there.

Yet atheists are incredibly outnumbered.

Yes this is due to the lack of education for the masses.

Why is atheism so unattractive?

It isn't it is just the fact that the majority of people are weak minded, easily lead, uneducated, when we correct this the rest shall follow.

Forgiveness brings peace. Try it.

Lack of guilt brings peace too.
Any non-religious person is always morally superior, to any religious person, due to his propensity to be moral regardless of any beliefs in gods/god or hope of reward.
No deities are required. Ever!

jesus can make His own bicycle.

then why didn't he make his own colt.

He also had a message for the disciples to share with anybody that asked about the colt he borrowed.

You mean the colt he stole and didn't return, I think when you borrow something, you usually return it.

I'm just reading my bible like you told me. I tried to include everything instead of just cherry picking. I apologize for being honest.

So your idea of being honest is stating that the taking of the colt was prearranged. Yeh! thats honesty, making things up because you don't like the way they read. Yeh your honest. lol.

 

[Woody]

Using his analogies as you call them, he does, which would have been the perfect opportunity for jesus to condemn the slavery and its abuse of slaves.

As pointed out before, the argument from science is no argument at all. Jesus gave one commandment -- that we love others. I think that pretty well covers it for slaves.

Isn't it more telling that he never once does.Shouldn't you have a greater knowledge of the bible than I, if you knew your bible you would know what I was talking about.Exactly it's very demeaning and disrespectful. Thus he breaks the commandment.

Jesus knew what some people would do with Mary, by making a god out of her. We can clearly see that she is just a woman, and not "the mother of God", as some claim can't we? :shrug:

Thank you for having the good sense to see that. It's refreshing to find someone of a christian ilk, admit his mistake.lol, so lets see what was said

Jesus always referred to Mary as "woman", as He did while on the cross, and he asked the disciple John to take care of her.

shall we
KJV LUKE 18,29: And it came to pass, when he was come nigh to Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount called the mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, (note: it never once says that jesus had been to bethphage and bethany before)
30: Saying, Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. (Note:lets translate, untie him/take him/steal him.)
31: And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.
32: And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them.
33: And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? (note:why are you taking my colt/stealing my colt)
34: And they said, The Lord hath need of him. (note:so it seem they stood there dumbfounded, or were beaten down, or anything else but most certainly not through jesus arranging it earlier, unless he sent a message by pony express.)

They could say "no". The disciples apparantly had the right password since Jesus wasn't there.

So we can gather that jesus as the instigator of the crime sent his disciples to steal a colt. it is as clear as day.

Stealing is rather clandestine isn't it? Like you don't go around making announcements.

If it was prearranged then why ask "why are you taking my colt" the owner would know, wouldn't he.

the password.

Irrelevant strawman. has no bearing on the subject in question, as I said before why was it that he only intervened when it suited the story line. would it have something to do with the authors. I wonder. Was that your attempt at an insult, lol. That also would be a first, the religious are basically intellectually dishonest.

Jesus's death was convenient for those that had him killed. I can agree with that.

But having said they are victims of a mind virus, so it could be a little unfair to call them dishonest, as they haven't got the good sense to know what reality is. No the bible tells me nothing it's a book of fiction, I don't use it to guide my life, that would be foolish.

So to you, a proverb means something kind of dumb.

and you saying you don't have that issue is a lie, as you do use it to guide your life.

But the bible doesn't make me think about killing people as it does you.

But you do else you would not have said, "So what did a Christian do to you personally that leaves you feeling this way? I'd just like to know how you justify your hatred of Christians. What did they do to you? Do you think that???" Another insult.

I am sorry that you are insulted. Maybe some christian beat you nearly to death while quoting bible verses and that would give you a very real reason to be seething with hatred toward them, as you are.

Why would I want a fictional character to be there.Yes this is due to the lack of education for the masses.

but they are many different religions, all trying to fill a need that atheists deny.

It isn't it is just the fact that the majority of people are weak minded, easily lead, uneducated, when we correct this the rest shall follow.

THe same information is available to everyone. Nobody is writing a new bible.

Lack of guilt brings peace too.

Forgiving others is bigger than personal perfection.

Any non-religious person is always morally superior, to any religious person, due to his propensity to be moral regardless of any beliefs in gods/god or hope of reward.

It's just that non-religious people are so "me-centerred"

No deities are required. Ever! then why didn't he make his own colt.You mean the colt he stole and didn't return, I think when you borrow something, you usually return it.So your idea of being honest is stating that the taking of the colt was prearranged. Yeh! thats honesty, making things up because you don't like the way they read. Yeh your honest. lol.

Being that the bible is fictional as you say, we can assume the right ending though authors did not spell it out. In the right ending the owners got their colt back. It's not like they didn't know where to look. and all those people cutting down plam branches and casting them before Jesus --- that was vandalism too wasn't it?