Arguments for the soul's existence...

Cyperium said:
I mean, this does not explain why I am my body and not anyone elses. The specific time in question is the time that I started to exist as myself and not anyone else.
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As seen, yes. In other words, there must be something else than the physical that is me. Cause I could be me even if my body were different from the start.
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Since we are talking about how it came about that I was in my body and not anyone elses.
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What is it in the matter that is different? Every electron is exactly, EXACTLY alike, every proton, photon, neutron, is EXACTLY the same, weren't it for the fact that it is in a different position in spacetime. What possibly can be different is the way they are ordered.
Click to expand...
If you define X as "this specific lump of coal" (not merely the physical dimensions and properties but the specific atoms that go to make it up) - and then you produce another lump of coal that is identical in every way and put it next to X... is it X?
No.
It's as simple as that. You have defined the first lump as X.

Likewise each working brain gives rise to a unique consciousness, a unique self-awareness. Two identical brains will produce two separate people, even if those people look and act completely alike.
This consciousness and self-awareness is an emergent property of the complex physical brain.

Even the visual experiance is non-physical. Where is the final construct that we see? Where is the color of red? Where is the form of a shape? Unto what is it painted?
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Okay - I think we possibly have a fundamental disagreement here.
Observation IS physical.
Everything we see is produced through physical interactions - of photons and our eyes, of the nerves, the synapses, the rest of the brain etc.
Even things you consider abstract are physical... produced as a result of purely physical interactions.
Unless you have proof to the contrary?

For example, enter a room with no photons flying around. What will you "see"? Nothing. Or blackness, which is the lack of colour, of light etc.
Your brain will still be firing, producing images, memories etc - again all through physical interactions.
 
Sarkus said:
If you define X as "this specific lump of coal" (not merely the physical dimensions and properties but the specific atoms that go to make it up) - and then you produce another lump of coal that is identical in every way and put it next to X... is it X?
No.
It's as simple as that. You have defined the first lump as X.
Click to expand...
But if there is two exactly alike me, what defined me to be either of them?

If the two lumps of coal were aware, what defined the left one to be X and the right one to be Y? Why not the other way around? There is a difference, I know that - but why is there?

You would say (probably):
"because they aren't the same, they are separate, two different lumps of coal".

If your argument is valid then there is a consciousness "field" in which anything with enough complexity becomes aware. The same awareness we all share. I am you. Only at a different place and perspective.

But it is still not physical, and it could still be regarded as a soul. The only thing we got rid is the selection process.


Likewise each working brain gives rise to a unique consciousness, a unique self-awareness. Two identical brains will produce two separate people, even if those people look and act completely alike.
This consciousness and self-awareness is an emergent property of the complex physical brain.
Click to expand...
They think it is an emergent property of the complex brain because they don't know what else to think (it's too complex for them).

Okay - I think we possibly have a fundamental disagreement here.
Observation IS physical.
Everything we see is produced through physical interactions - of photons and our eyes, of the nerves, the synapses, the rest of the brain etc.
Even things you consider abstract are physical... produced as a result of purely physical interactions.
Unless you have proof to the contrary?
Click to expand...
Yes, of course, I see a tree, but there is no physical tree. I see a color but the color is nowhere to be found.

Everything in the brain is just a representation of what I see. What I see is not to be found anywhere. Although I see green, there is no green in the brain, just a representation of it, so where is the green that I see?

For example, enter a room with no photons flying around. What will you "see"? Nothing. Or blackness, which is the lack of colour, of light etc.
Your brain will still be firing, producing images, memories etc - again all through physical interactions.
Click to expand...
Even nothing has a color. Where is the black painted that is not painted at all, and why do we see it?

Describes sight to the blind, sound to the deaf, existence to the non-existent.
 
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swarm said:
You said the original would need to be killed, but you are the original and remain the original. So you are demanding your own death. The copy could easily be thought of as an exact twin.
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Exactly, that's why I wouldn't use such a device - no one could ever prove that it wasn't me that came out from the other side.

In quantum teleportation (through entanglement) the original is automatically destroyed.

In "a hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" they use a probability device to travel to any place and time in the universe. Which isn't so bad a thought after all, since there is always a small (very small) probability that all the particles suddenly made a quantum leap to anywhere :) if we just could mess with the probability we could achieve anything :)

In any case, we do a leap all the time when we move, since everything is made up of quanta. That's like having pixels moving, they don't move smoothly but in small leaps. If time is quantisized this way too then that brings about a interesting perspective that the world is somehow regenerated all the time (or perhaps it just doesn't have time to "fade away")
 
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If we consider the Christian teachings of Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Mind, Body, and Soul) we can see that Soul and Body are really opposites that meet within the mind (not the brain!). So then while the body is visible (to the eye/body!) and constrained by forces such as gravity, a pure soul must not be. Should the soul be realeased from it's body I'm guessing that things such as flooating, walking on water and eternal life are possible.
 
Spectrum said:
If we consider the Christian teachings of Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Mind, Body, and Soul) we can see that Soul and Body are really opposites that meet within the mind (not the brain!). So then while the body is visible (to the eye/body!) and constrained by forces such as gravity, a pure soul must not be. Should the soul be realeased from it's body I'm guessing that things such as flooating, walking on water and eternal life are possible.
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Though Jesus said that He was no ghost and let Thomas the doubter put his hand in the side to show Him that He was indeed of flesh and blood still. Some are born again without dying. Rather to be born again is to live a spiritual life. If we die though it is said that we get new bodies that are whole and can't die (and if they do, it would be the second death - which would be the eternal fire).
 
Souls

For the first time, yesterday at age 54, I left my body and my wife did also. We didn't instigate this, it just happened and we were somewhere not of this earth. We had no earthly shackles, such as our physical bodies and embraced each other as souls. It was an amazing experience and when we came back, we both said 'What was that' as neither of us had experienced anything like this before. We had had a couple of drinks, but not too much and certainly no drugs.
I am still blown away by this experience (and my wife is) and I think it does show that our true selves (our souls) can transcend anything. If you are lucky enough for it to happen to you, you will know that it is 'the real thing' and experiencing things just as your soul, is well, wow!
I now can't wait for this to happen again, perhaps without a drink this time.
Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing along with a partner at the same time?
 
Illusion or delusion?

I guess you're describing an orgasm during sex. All of us have experienced that
 
Hi All,
New to forum.
Backbone of the topic seems to be a "previous" post by Boris?.
Quite scientifical and needs detailed investigagion and answer.
I do not possess the qualification to send a detailed answer considering all aspects.
Though I do speculate on the matter quite a lot nowadays.

First let me site the islamic claims as I understand them:
Quran 32/5 :
Sahih International
He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
Muhsin Khan
He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).

In my interpretation the God should be in a position which is 1000 light years away from the Earth.

Quran 70/4 : Sahih International
The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.

To deduce (is) : The speed of the spirit (soul?) is 1/50 of the speed of light.

So the soul is not light and not matter but something in between. We can semi scientifically assume our EM thory is linear which should in fact be non linear and the soul is a soliton.

We can further assume that the soul interacts with barins EM activity and it mainly increases brains sensitivity to EM radiation (coded, meaningful) from outer space.

Taht may be the reason why masonic initiation works.

with regards,
ismail
 
hey. I know this thread is old and i havn't read through all 20 pages lol but I just wanted to post my thoughs on this.

Ok so imo we are spiritual beings and in this universe we have two different systems that influence our behaviours and emotions which are the biological system and the psychological system. Something like nature vs nurture. These two systems are intertwined with each other to create everything we have today i.e society, different cultures, languages, and so on. The biological system is pretty much nature and nature has an agenda of its own which is mainly to reproduce and keep us alive long enough to look after the kids we have depending on what species we are. Sex is designed by nature to feel good and release dopamine into our blood stream to make us have a feeling of euphoria, attachment and love (well what we preceive to be romantic love) This is just a trick though literally the biological system is fooling you into thinking your in love because nature is smart, it understands that when a couple look after a child together the child has a better chance of survival and is overall more healthy than a child being raised by one parent. So hormones influence your behaviour and emotions that you feel. Freud said that civilization represses basic instincts in humans. So we have western society, ill use American society as an example. So in america the basic way of life is your born, go to school, high school, university, get a good job, earn lots of money, buy a big house and fast car, meet a girl, get married, have kids, have a mid life crisis, buy a bigger house and faster car, retire, and lastly die. This is the typical way of life in western society. Now society itself is a mental concept ( a psychological system) all it is is a belief system same with everything in society i.e money, social status, the job you have, etc. So as you grow older your personality and who you are in this universe is influenced by your surroundings i.e schools, peers and the media. These two systems literally create who you are. So you have nature and genetics which might make you inherit certain personality traits and these are embedded in your brain. So genetics plays a part in wheter your an overall moody person or an overall happy person then comes the psychological conditioning which effects who you are even more than nature.

So we have these two systems that influence and build who you are as you grow older. But now imagine if your aware of these systems and are literally able to overcome these systems and be free so you create who you are instead of being moulded by the biological and psychological systems. Anything that happens to you in this lifetime doesn't impact who you are in the future i.e your dad abuses your mother when you were a little kid and usually this would have an effect on you in later life. But imagine if you could let go of the past and just create who you are from scratch and not let any outside factors influence you. This is incredibly difficult obviously, I mean you would probably have to live in isolation to achomplish this.

But once your free then I think its your soul/ consciousness thats in control of your body and mind. So alot of people in this world have a brain that is in control of their body but they arn't aware of their brain i.e they dont question the thoughts they have. Why am i attracted to this person? etc they just go with the flow.

So the way I see it is that your soul is inside you and you can set it free by simply being aware and questioning literally everything in life and attempting to answer it yourself. So instead of your hormones being in control of you your soul is in control. Instead of easily being influenced by your surroundings your soul is in control of shaping your personality. Its not abou repressing basic insticts or ignoring the sociological factors that play a part in influencing you rather its overcoming it and being in complete control. So instead of just your brain being in control your consciousness/soul is in control.

The reason were here is mabye because as purely just souls we cannot express our emotions or we cannot experience individuality and thats why our souls together created this matrix or game (however you want to look at it) to experience individuality or express their emotions through art, music and so on.

When it comes to love I think true love does exist in the sense of people being best friends with each other and can literally be completly themselves around each other and not needing to manipulate each other. If you look at the dating system we have I mean its so fake and superficial I dont understand how people can find true love like that. Idk if sex has a part to play in true love as a way to express your love for someone or its just a tool used for reproduction. Imo true love is best friends with benefits not this bullshit love you see in the movies where people are more comfortalble talking to their friends about stuff rather then their partner. So i think true love can exist regardless of gender age or w.e its just two people who are close together and it feels like your one person when your together. Not sure about soul mates and romantic love though.

The way im looking at it is as if life is just a system created, a game. So for me personally I cant take life seriously I mean everyone around me worries about money problems etc but I really dont give a fuck lol. Idk if this is because im scared of living in "reality" or what but to me none of this is real because theres just too much suffering and bullshit going on i mean how can it be real.

You're a prisoner of your own mind and only you hold the key to your own freedom.
 
I think the soul is your emotional state of being . Probably controlled by your brain , genetic disposition, and life experiences . The things that make you cry , the things that make you laugh define your soul . Having one may be a choice instead of a guarantee. I think Modern Life tends to strip us of a soul by homogenization of the world. Get up go to the same job , brake for lunch , go back to work , come home , Play on the computer , watch T,V, go to sleep , wake up go to work .

If you love your Job count your self lucky
If you got a job you love and the financial rewards are enough to support you and your family count your self extremely lucky

O.K. if you want a soul get one . They are one of the things in life that are free . I got but loads of souls . I collect them . You can have one of mine if you can't find one on your own
 
Azurisa...umm...could you do shorter paragraphs and edit things tightly...for me???:shy:

My brain is periodically one with the cooked oatmeal...
 
Is it just me, or has sciforums become land of the living dead threads lately?
 
@ chimpkin

Sorry man I aint exactly a writer lol. I just have all these thoughts and I wrote it the best way I could. If you tell me which parts you didn't understand ill try to explain it better.
 
Knowledge91 said:
Mind + Emotion = Soul
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Emotions are purely biological. All it is is chemical reactions in the brain causing different emotions. So think of it like this. Humans have created a robot and they can sit inside this robot and control every aspect of this robot. They have also installed this robot with a synthetic brain which can run on auto pilot and think for itself causing chemical reactions in this synthetic brain etc. Now the humans sitting inside this robot can at any time choose to take the robot off auto pilot, hijack the brain and be in full control however even when their in control there will still be chemical reactions going on in the synthetic brain and it wont be able to tell the difference. So its like sitting in a plane and letting the plane fly in auto pilot and taking it off auto pilot and being in control of the plane. Regardless of the plane being in auto pilot or being controlled manually the engine is till running and there is still chemical reactions going on in the engine. Now alot of humans are running on auto pilot i.e being controlled by hormones and by social conditoning but what if you could take yourself off auto pilot and be in full control.
 
do we have a soul

LESSONS FROM GOD ; What happens to a Baby's Soul after Abortion or Miscarriage
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(Please think about this then read the following)
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One fine morning at home, I was chanting mantras when Sai Babaji appeared and said " come with me", we reappeared in a Gurudwara (temple) with my wife also sitting next to me in the temple Hall.
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Babaji looked at us and said '' I have brought someone to meet you''
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I said, "Baba 'who have you brought''
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Baba said ''Come, meet your other daughter''
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I was totally confused ''Baba you are mistaken we have a daughter we do not have another, ''
'' AHA,! said Baba '' She is your other daughter, do you not, remember the trauma your wife suffered during miscarriage 15 years ago?"
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I replied, "Baba, why have you brought her to see us''
I saw this girl standing next to us tall and very serene as if she had been touched by the hand of GOD!.
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Baba spoke ''
When the mother has a miscarriage or Abortion it is not automatic that the child's soul ascends, If the parents are constantly immersed in prayers then God intervenes and send Angels to take the Baby soul to Heaven/appropriate place, if not in prayers -- then the Baby soul can be trapped in Limbo, becoming a BHOOT/Spirit , and normally attaches itself to it's mother where it is home!
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From the mothers body the Baby soul may cause untold Trauma to its Mother/father and all around. Many times the Soul has no idea that its body/temple has died! The soul watches everything the parents do and interferes with their emotions. Amarjit, this is why its important to immerse in God prayers always.
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God has acknowledged your prayers & Devotion & intervened to take your baby soul Home!".
Baba took hold of our daughters hand and the gates of Heaven opened and he disappeared with the Angels.
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Its only when the Hand of God touches us we realise there is more to life then what we perceive.
We should open our senses and allow our Inner Godhead to awaken.
Baba says "I am God, You too are God but you fail to recognise this!
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OM SAI RAM
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Click here: Abortion
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With Miscarriage and Abortions invariably the baby soul stays within the mothers Womb where it was conceived as it is home to it.
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The mother has no idea why she has gone into depression after miscarriage or abortion. She has no idea it could be the Traumatic Soul stuck to her.
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From the womb the Baby Soul then may choose to cause a lot of suffering to her host/ ie Mom and people around. If the baby Soul becomes possessive of the Mother then it will invariably become very jealous and act accordingly with the people attached to MOM!

With an Abortion / Miscarriage while it may be argued that the foetus has no soul in it in the early stages, it was shown to me by Baba that the foetus can be classified as a Phantom Living organism of the Mother similar to ' The Phantom Limb'.
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So Aborting the foetus is similar to that of having a trauma when you loose part of your body, say the Limb , Kidney etc. The very fact of removing this living organism causes Untold trauma especially in the Mother.
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Our body is the temple of God 'Do not defile your Temple'.
Being born as a woman conceiving Wow, Men find it hard to understand why their women behave strangely.
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Meditate on this - for approx 9 months the Mother has 2 soul within her body hers and the baby's.
The baby's mind can also influence the mother during this period!
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Case Study :
My first teaching from Baba happened at a friend's house.
We were praying and suddenly I saw inside his mothers womb a baby soul due to an old miscarriage some 40 years previously.
I asked his Mother to ask God to release this soul to Heaven.
She became nasty and I was asked to leave immediately!
Nowadays I have to be very careful how I word myself.
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Case Study
I was praying with a woman who had gone into depression and ill health when suddenly Sai Baba showed me in her womb was a dark energy. I spoke to this energy and it manifested to 2 Aborted souls which the mother had inside her for over 9 years!.
The souls were jealous of each other and fighting each other inside her womb giving her health and emotional problems within her family. Baba took the souls away after we prayed for their release their Karma to be forgiven . The lady since has changed for the better.
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Case Study
Another lady suffering from Weakness/Emotional problems had darkness attached to her breast.
When I spoke to this darkness it turned out to be an aborted baby soul which was sucking her mothers breast for milk , energetically and draining Mom of all her energies.
A SPIRIT HAS LIMITLESS Energy
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Baba then took away this soul as well. She has changed for the better since with Gods Grace.
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If the women dies with the soul still stuck with her then this becomes a Karmic issue. If say the women is reborn as a man or a woman in the next life this trauma still follows the person reincarnated.
We have seen sometimes the energy becomes absorbed into a Karma Issue or in some cases the Soul waits for the rebirth of the soul it was attached to and as soon as it reincarnates it attaches itself to this Soul , the new body may not be a women it could be a man.
This Karma can be released thru mantras, prayer deep devotion to God or Sadhanas like Vortex , or the Grace of your Guru.
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Amarjit
Click here: Spiritual Reality - Transcribed | dotSUB
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Click here: Phantom limb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Click here: The Hickman Academy, for Spirit Release and Healing Remote Spirit Release, Worldwide
 
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