Arguement from EVIL

M

MooseKnuckle

Registered Senior Member
The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists

2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

But if anyone thinks that they can give a good objection to this arguement I would be quite interested, as would many others
 
shit wesmorris, that was an extremely fast reply

whos this truthseeker character?? a preacher????? cause they tend to make my ears bleed
 
That argument never really caught on with me.

I have seen it fairly competently refuted by theists and atheists alike, in several differnt ways.

Me, personally?
I think evil is not an absolute.
It is an abstract idea.
It is a comparative term.
Like light and dark.

Darkness is only, in effect, a degree of light.

Without darkness we wouldn't know what light is and vice versa.

(is this making sense to anyone but me?)

Therefore, evil is basically just a degree of good.

(I don't usually edit posts after someone has already replied, but I forgot to add that last sentence)
 
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I think the general method of weaseling out of that argument is to play semantics with the definition of god. Every theist will have their own interpretation thereof and start up some weak argument to limit the scope of god's power due to some emotional insight they've had of god. ack.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
The problem of evil is one of the most troublesome problems that faces anyone that believes that there exists an all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful God who created the world we inhabit.

premise 1. An all good, all knowing, and all powerful God exists

2. There exists evil in the world

The existence of evil in the world does not logically exclude the existance of God, but such evil makes it extremely improbably that God exists. Statement (2) should be thought of as strong evidence against statement (1)

From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.

But if anyone thinks that they can give a good objection to this arguement I would be quite interested, as would many others
Click to expand...

This is a material world, a phenomenal world, this means everything has a beginning and an end or at least everything is constantly changing. Evil is one side of the coin as is darkness, in relation to good or light, this is nature, i don't have to agree with you, nor you me, we have certain amount of freedom to draw our conclusions.
The All-Powerfull God, although integral to the creation, maintainence and destruction of this cosmic manifestation, plays a personal part in it, only when called on by His real devoted servants, otherwise it is left to what could be described as His universal government, who themselves are material, to govern as they see fit. God, in no scripture is described as being material, in all scripture it states that God has a form, but this form is not subject to the onslaught or the illusion of material nature, it is described as being eternal and spiritual (pure consciousness), and full of knowledge.
So regardless of whether you believe this or not, that is the description given to some degree or other, in all scriptures, and therefore you point is invalid, unless you can show me where GOD is mentioned as having a material body.
If you say. There is no evidence to support this, then your point is still invalid. :)

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
After following Nebula's link and reading Tiassa's response, I contend that there's a good deal of evidence to back up my assertion above about the weaseling and the business.
 
Re: Re: Arguement from EVIL

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
This is a material world, a phenomenal world, this means everything has a beginning and an end or at least everything is constantly changing. Evil is one side of the coin as is darkness, in relation to good or light, this is nature, i don't have to agree with you, nor you me, we have certain amount of freedom to draw our conclusions.
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Okay, I can sort of buy that, at least I don't feel it neccesary to argue.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

The All-Powerfull God, although integral to the creation, maintainence and destruction of this cosmic manifestation, plays a personal part in it, only when called on by His real devoted servants, otherwise it is left to what could be described as His universal government, who themselves are material, to govern as they see fit.
Click to expand...

How convenient for his real devoted servants. Don't you think that sounds kind of uh.. well, retarded? I mean, what? I know there's no evidence to back up your claim so you just believe it? Okay "it seemed right" to you? Sure, whatever you have to tell yourself. How is it that you think your knowledge of "god" is superior to mine? Because of your "scripture"? Why not read a science book? I think my physics book is a much more important book than the bible, and would label it "scripture" if I felt like it at any given time... but your really boring old book is superior eh? Whatever.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

God, in no scripture is described as being material, in all scripture it states that God has a form, but this form is not subject to the onslaught or the illusion of material nature, it is described as being eternal and spiritual (pure consciousness), and full of knowledge.
Click to expand...

Uh-huh. Why is it that you think your "scripture" has any bearing on reality?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

So regardless of whether you believe this or not, that is the description given to some degree or other, in all scriptures, and therefore you point is invalid, unless you can show me where GOD is mentioned as having a material body.
Click to expand...

Why, if it said that somewhere.... would you believe it? Okay watch: "you are a pink fluffy bunny". Are you a pink fluffy bunny? I want in on some of this scripture writing action. Maybe I could get a bunch of chicks like that. It woudl be sweet. "You think wesley is good. Huge c**k. You like huge wesley c**k". You think I should try that? I doubt it would work. I must not have any scripture type skills.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

If you say. There is no evidence to support this, then your point is still invalid. :)
Click to expand...

Translation: "If you say I'm brainwashed I'll insist that I'm not." I'm sorry Jan, but that's simply ridiculous. You give your silly book and the words of those who continuously indoctrinate you into your cult (including yourself) too much credence. It's really quite silly you know.
 
I'll throw in my two cents.

God has an unimaginable wrath and he's not afraid to use it. He loves like a father. He has to punish sin. The old testement shares several instances where God lashed out on sin. But he has not revealed himself in anger in the past 2,000 years because his son has payed for sin. Our conviction and consequences are payment for our sin, but if this world was perfect and there was no evil then we probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with God. But God wants to be glorified and worshipped, he makes something for us to run from so that we have to humble ourselves in order to realize that he is our only hope.

Just my opinion.
 
Why does God want to be glorified? is he not complete without our worshipping him? Sounds like an evil tyrant to me.

I think its important not to give a supreme being human like qualities. ex- the thirst for power. Why would a perfect being NEED worshipping or create a world where worshipping him would be a necessary element?

Sounds like an insecure being to me, more like another ill attempt by humans to justify an illogical belief. Basically a supreme being would not need to feed off of our praise, or have us praise in the first place
 
Re: Re: Re: Arguement from EVIL

Wes,

How convenient for his real devoted servants. Don't you think that sounds kind of uh.. well, retarded? I mean, what? I know there's no evidence to back up your claim so you just believe it? Okay "it seemed right" to you? Sure, whatever you have to tell yourself. How is it that you think your knowledge of "god" is superior to mine? Because of your "scripture"? Why not read a science book? I think my physics book is a much more important book than the bible, and would label it "scripture" if I felt like it at any given time... but your really boring old book is superior eh? Whatever.
Click to expand...

Wes, you have not understood my point. When we talk of an All-Powerfull God, we are talking about God who is described in the scriptures, are we not? It doesn’t matter whether you believe in Him or not, and I am not arguing as to whether He exists or not, or which religion is better or worse. The point is, His character is described in all scriptures. So, the argument that MooseKnuckle put foreward, included a description of God which is consistent in all religions, namely All-Powerfull, but the conclusion he came to, *“From this arguement many(I included) believe that it is quite unreasonable and illogical to believe in God as we know him.* was invalid, because he didn’t take into consideration, Gods Absolutness, which sets Him apart from material nature, as explained in varying degrees, in every scripture, it seems he describes God in the way he sees Him as opposed to the way He is described.
If we were to have a discussion about a “Star Wars” movie, wouldn’t you find it strange if I only talked about the things I want, and disregard the thing I don’t?

Uh-huh. Why is it that you think your "scripture" has any bearing on reality?
Click to expand...

Read my post again, you will note that I said “all scripture”, and apart from that, your totally off the mark.

Why, if it said that somewhere.... would you believe it?
Click to expand...

Try and understand, as far as my reply goes, belief is not the issue. Whether you believe or not, the character and attributes of God, be He real or unreal, are consistent in every scripture, so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
Why does God want to be glorified? is he not complete without our worshipping him? Sounds like an evil tyrant to me.

I think its important not to give a supreme being human like qualities. ex- the thirst for power. Why would a perfect being NEED worshipping or create a world where worshipping him would be a necessary element?

Sounds like an insecure being to me, more like another ill attempt by humans to justify an illogical belief. Basically a supreme being would not need to feed off of our praise, or have us praise in the first place
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've already made your mind up. One question though; why did you start this thread?

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguement from EVIL

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Try and understand, as far as my reply goes, belief is not the issue. Whether you believe or not, the character and attributes of God, be He real or unreal, are consistent in every scripture, so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts.
Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

Don't you think you're changing the rules. He defined his "god". You redefined it did you not? Shouldn't you work with what he gave rather than what you think he should have given? His claim is consistent in and of itself, though it may not have any bearing on the scripture or religious interpretation of choice.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguement from EVIL

Originally posted by wesmorris
Don't you think you're changing the rules. He defined his "god". You redefined it did you not? Shouldn't you work with what he gave rather than what you think he should have given? His claim is consistent in and of itself, though it may not have any bearing on the scripture or religious interpretation of choice.
Click to expand...

Then what's the point of a discussion, and what is his source for his explanation of God, is it just inside his head??? :rolleyes:

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arguement from EVIL

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Then what's the point of a discussion, and what is his source for his explanation of God, is it just inside his head??? :rolleyes:

Love

Jan Ardena.
Click to expand...

He gave a hypothetical scenario.

Oh, and where else does "god" exist.. rather than inside people's heads eh? You cannot demostrate otherwise, so why do you argue?
 
Well my personal feelings on the whole good/bad issue is this:

If i act in an evil manner i end up burning in hell for eternity. Personally i think that's boring. If you need to endure something long enough it soon becomes pointless.

If i act all good and loving i get to spend an eternity playing the harp. After a very short perood of time that will become boring and pointless also.

Instead of living forever or burning forever i just prefer being a mortal and enjoying my life while i have it. Once i'm all done i can just sit in the ground as a skeleton, without thoughts, knowledge or anything else. I do not need to worship a 'possible' god, because frankly i dont want eternal life. Instead i just spend time appreciating all that i have and all that i can accomplish.
 
"Sounds like you've already made your mind up. One question though; why did you start this thread?"

Was I not responding to responses???? I was following up on someone else's suggestions, i dont see what the problem is here

"When we talk of an All-Powerfull God, we are talking about God who is described in the scriptures, are we not? It doesn’t matter whether you believe in Him or not, and I am not arguing as to whether He exists or not, or which religion is better or worse. The point is, His character is described in all scriptures"

Ok so here you say that I gave the description of a god who is described in the scriptures, (all-powerfull, etc) ok note taken..............

"so if we are to discuss the character of God, then we can only find such information in the scriptures, as the threadstarter didn’t do that, his conclusions are doomed before he even starts."

Now you blatantly contradict yourself
 
Good response Snake. I would like an eternal afterlife though, but I know that there is none, so I will join you in the decompositon process

hahahah, playing harp
 
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