Are Theists Psychics by Default?

[scifes]

No, they are kidding everyone, including the god they profess to believe in.

I played the same game you did when I was a Christian, except a step further into teaching the Bible and leading worship. At times I thought I truly felt God, but it was only the music and the euphoric joy of altruism. No one talks enough about the value of altrusim that exists coupled with religion.

Take away the music, the lights, and the wine and 3/4s of churches would be empty, you can take that to the bank.

it's people like you who i think make the majority of atheists, and represent their biggest "reason" for choosing atheism, this may be received in a hard way by our fellow Christians, but i think most atheists, like you, leave Christianity mostly for evidence related reasons, and with that oppose the idea of a god to begin with..

am i right?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

So if someone is pretending to have an experience they are not having, we know that others are pretending also when they claim to have this experience.

I don't think that is logical.

*************
M*W: I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree. Let me spell it out, so I won't miss anything. I was pretending to be a christian. Those around me were also pretending (I know that now). Maybe they thought they were "in Christ," but I suspect it was just a facade for them, too. Otherwise, why would their wonderful god reject me? I was very insecure as a christian, always striving to do better, to be better, to be accepted by this god who had accepted everyone else but not me (I thought). IOW, those around me who claimed to be christians with supernatural experiences may have been experiencing something that I knew in my logical mind wasn't possible. Maybe they were kidding themselves. There is no god, so how could there be experiences of god? Well, that's another topic in the category of delusion.

 

[jayleew]

and with that oppose the idea of a god to begin with..

am i right?

I never have and still do not oppose the idea of a god. At one point I would be arguing for my religion. It happend over the past several years that I fell away fromt the faith. Look up my first few posts ages ago and see how I was not opposed to the idea of a god. What I do oppose is brainwashing and doctrine. When I saw I shouldn't be a Christian because of what you find in church, and that everyone from the countless churches I've been a part of were the same zombies, I was fed up with keeping up the act of faith, when there is a lack of evidence. If God exists, I blame God for allowing me to become who I am and forcing me to be what I am not in order for salvation. It is unjust. But, if God were to make itself known to me, things would be different, and I'd have to reevaluate if I choose to still not follow it. But, at least then I would have an honest chance to choose God or not. But, today I've read I have to choose now.

God might be a criminal who is asking me to side with it, but is not telling me what it intends, only asking if I am with it or against it. Actions speak louder than words, even words from holy scriptures. Let God speak through God's mouth and do work with God's hands...but he appears too weak to do so and has to have believers be his mouth and feet. There is a much simpler explanation for this, than the fanciful story found in scriptures as an escape from responsibility to fellow man. Let brother help brother, and there be peace on Earth and not wait around for some magic man to fix our problems. That goes against what the scriptures teach, and yet the church is filled with lazy people worried about their own problems when it isn't 9:00am on Sunday.

 

[Doreen]

*************
M*W: I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree.

It doesnt sound like you agree.

Let me spell it out, so I won't miss anything. I was pretending to be a christian. Those around me were also pretending (I know that now).

So you can read their minds?

Maybe they thought they were "in Christ," but I suspect it was just a facade for them, too.

Ah, suspect. OK

Otherwise, why would their wonderful god reject me? I was very insecure as a christian, always striving to do better, to be better, to be accepted by this god who had accepted everyone else but not me (I thought). IOW, those around me who claimed to be christians with supernatural experiences may have been experiencing something that I knew in my logical mind wasn't possible. Maybe they were kidding themselves.

May have been. Perhaps.

There is no god, so how could there be experiences of god?

It is amazing how one assumption can support another assumption..

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

It is amazing how one assumption can support another assumption..

Atheist and theist have one thing in common.... An absence of evidence for God. Seeing how that is the way it is, then atheists are in the stronger position. I would think that God is nothing more than an unsupported assumption whereas the thought of there being no god is supported by, of all things, a lack of evidence.

This lack of evidence suits the atheist position. Atheists are not interested in looking for a god. It's not our problem so we like to let the theists do that. The theists seem to be at a point in history where they need to produce God somehow. Greater knowledge of the universe has forced theists to find God in places no one has looked before. But it doesn't matter where they find Him since science eventually comes along and casts doubt on the findings.

Belief in God will continue to exist in the minds of humans as long as He can't be found. That's the insanity of it all. God is now undeniably more mysterious then at any time in history. If you think He is in your dreams, speaking to you in a crowded subway station, or morphing something on your coffee table, then it will be the proof you're looking for. I said your own proof, the most difficult of any to convince others of. So don't stand aghast that we don't believe your claims because it is perfectly obvious that even theists know this type of proof is strictly personal and not universal.

 

[Doreen]

Atheist and theist have one thing in common.... An absence of evidence for God. Seeing how that is the way it is, then atheists are in the stronger position. I would think that God is nothing more than an unsupported assumption whereas the thought of there being no god is supported by, of all things, a lack of evidence.

This lack of evidence suits the atheist position. Atheists are not interested in looking for a god. It's not our problem so we like to let the theists do that. The theists seem to be at a point in history where they need to produce God somehow. Greater knowledge of the universe has forced theists to find God in places no one has looked before. But it doesn't matter where they find Him since science eventually comes along and casts doubt on the findings.

Belief in God will continue to exist in the minds of humans as long as He can't be found. That's the insanity of it all. God is now undeniably more mysterious then at any time in history. If you think He is in your dreams, speaking to you in a crowded subway station, or morphing something on your coffee table, then it will be the proof you're looking for. I said your own proof, the most difficult of any to convince others of. So don't stand aghast that we don't believe your claims because it is perfectly obvious that even theists know this type of proof is strictly personal and not universal.

The only thing I stand aghast about is that you cannot see how irrelevent your post is. If I point out the lack of logic or faulty assumptions in a post by you or another atheist, repeatedly I notice how the issue shifts to problems you see in the theist position. You really need to understand that other people being illogical does not suddenly magically transform your or MWs arguments or mind reading into logic or a lack of hypocrisy. Please, let me know when you understand this point.

 

[Adstar]

I never have and still do not oppose the idea of a god. At one point I would be arguing for my religion. It happend over the past several years that I fell away fromt the faith. Look up my first few posts ages ago and see how I was not opposed to the idea of a god. What I do oppose is brainwashing and doctrine. When I saw I shouldn't be a Christian because of what you find in church, and that everyone from the countless churches I've been a part of were the same zombies, I was fed up with keeping up the act of faith,

You could never "fall away from the faith" if it was all just an act you where keeping up.

Christianity is not built on churches. It is built upon the Word of God, I have not been a member of a church for over 20 years and in that time i have only been inside a church for a wedding and a funeral. Faith is real it is not an act if faith was an act for you then it was never faith. What where you a part of? A glorified repertory society?

when there is a lack of evidence. If God exists, I blame God for allowing me to become who I am and forcing me to be what I am not in order for salvation. It is unjust.

God has given His Message through the Prophets and through the Messaih Jesus. There is enough spiritual evidance in the message itself. God has not forced you to be anything from the start. Each person is free to respond to His Word. If you respond like Pheroah responded to the will of God then you can be forced as you suggest but only after one rejects the will of God is one ever forced.

But, if God were to make itself known to me, things would be different, and I'd have to reevaluate if I choose to still not follow it. But, at least then I would have an honest chance to choose God or not. But, today I've read I have to choose now.

Read the Word of God again and ask for understanding. If you’re genuine then you will be freed from your misconceptions and lead to salvation. But if you have already rejected the first stepping-stone, the basic love of the truth then you haven't got a chance in hell.

God might be a criminal who is asking me to side with it, but is not telling me what it intends, only asking if I am with it or against it. Actions speak louder than words, even words from holy scriptures. Let God speak through God's mouth and do work with God's hands...but he appears too weak to do so and has to have believers be his mouth and feet.

His Word is far better then any believer. You think God has done nothing? He has given a message that’s sharper than any two edged sword and it is by that Word that He has chosen to separate the wheat from the chaff.

There is a much simpler explanation for this, than the fanciful story found in scriptures as an escape from responsibility to fellow man.

Ahh the rejection of Gods Grace in a sentence.

You want all men to take responsibility don't you. Well then you shall get what you want in the final judgement. People like you will not escape from the responsibility of you sin. As you have judged others so shall you be judged? Only fair hey.

Don't you dare cry for mercy on that day when you have made it clear you see mercy as an escape from responsibility.

Let brother help brother, and there be peace on Earth and not wait around for some magic man to fix our problems.

There shall be no peace on earth. Until God changes people. The ones whom have sort for and embraced His Mercy. There have been people like you for thousands of years, proud in believing that they can create a perfect society and you know why they have all failed to see their idealistic dreams fulfilled?

Because man is one faulty machine that can never fix its own internal fault. Only the delusional, prideful, pompous and arrogant think they can.

That goes against what the scriptures teach, and yet the church is filled with lazy people worried about their own problems when it isn't 9:00am on Sunday.

Forget about the Churches and other people. Their relationship with God is a thing between them and God. In regards to eternity it is all about each individuals response to God.

It is no about them and God. It is about You and God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jayleew]

Christianity is not built on churches. It is built upon the Word of God, I have not been a member of a church for over 20 years and in that time i have only been inside a church for a wedding and a funeral. Faith is real it is not an act if faith was an act for you then it was never faith. What where you a part of? A glorified repertory society?

Churches today may not be the churches they were 20 years ago. Christian churches are full of those who destroy the mystery of God and place it in a box so that they can get high. They don't know the difference between spirit and Holy Spirit. Even a non religious person can experience "holy fire".

God has given His Message through the Prophets and through the Messaih Jesus. There is enough spiritual evidance in the message itself. God has not forced you to be anything from the start. Each person is free to respond to His Word. If you respond like Pheroah responded to the will of God then you can be forced as you suggest but only after one rejects the will of God is one ever forced.

Forced isn't the right word. Unfair is better. Scriptures say that only if you believe in God, you will live on or in Heaven. (depending on interpretation) If you don't, you will die or be cast into Hell. (depending on interpretation)

Read the Word of God again and ask for understanding. If you’re genuine then you will be freed from your misconceptions and lead to salvation. But if you have already rejected the first stepping-stone, the basic love of the truth then you haven't got a chance in hell.

I did this for many years, I do understand the words. It makes sense save a few scriptures here and there. I know what is asked of me, and I know that God loves me. But, this is all under the presumption that God exists. That is why the Word is worthless without the believer or more importantly, God.

His Word is far better then any believer. You think God has done nothing? He has given a message that’s sharper than any two edged sword and it is by that Word that He has chosen to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Are you kidding me? A book cannot prove itself. The authors of the scriptures were flesh and blood, something else needs to sanctify the words and give credence to it for it to be the word of said deity.

If it were true that a book could prove itself, why don't we also believe in Jack and the Beanstalk.

The only thing that you can say is that your experience through fullfillment of the word has validated the words as sanctified.

Therein is the issue I have with God. It is far simpler to believe there is no God, and most often the simplest answer is the truth.

You want all men to take responsibility don't you. Well then you shall get what you want in the final judgement. People like you will not escape from the responsibility of you sin. As you have judged others so shall you be judged? Only fair hey.

Yes, man should take responsibility for their actions. It is also many times prescribed in the scriptures as well. I don't know about you, but I atone for my sins with whom I sinned against (as is prescribed in the Christian Bible before talking to God), and if God were real I would also atone with God. I do not judge, but I am judged. Also, religion is not the keeper of altruism and morality. The problem I have is that I am judged by Christians, even as a Christian brother. Pride is a dangerous thing that none are immune to. Not even Paul, as he wrote about it. That is one reason why Jesus said, "...even the elect will be deceived."

Don't you dare cry for mercy on that day when you have made it clear you see mercy as an escape from responsibility.

That's not what I'm saying.

There shall be no peace on earth. Until God changes people. The ones whom have sort for and embraced His Mercy. There have been people like you for thousands of years, proud in believing that they can create a perfect society and you know why they have all failed to see their idealistic dreams fulfilled?

Yes, people would have to change in a very drastic way. It seems impossible, but with the attitude that there shall be no peace on Earth until God changes people, that breeds negativity and anger. Also pride in those that hunger for vengence on the judged wicked sinners.

Because man is one faulty machine that can never fix its own internal fault. Only the delusional, prideful, pompous and arrogant think they can.

This is what i'm talking about. It is one-sided, rigid, and ugly outlook. I shared this outlook long ago. With this attitude you do not serve God because it does not serve God's purpose to bring love and foster the spirit. This statement is without hope.

Just because something is lost, does that mean we should give up hope to change things in the name of God? Does God want you truly to throw in the towel and stop trying to spread the love that the world needs to heal, just because you think it can't be done without God?

Besides, if man is a faulty machine how can you trust yourself to know what is God and what isn't? The faulty machine is what finished off my faith. I don't hold it against them, I blamed God for not interceding when I asked simply to be there.

It could have been my perception? Sure, it could have been, but that is precisely why Christians should not judge as I was judged as a Christian and as I am judged now.

The simple fact is, is if God exists, then what business does man have in proclaiming they know all about God, enough to judge what is and what isn't. You do not realize that every word you have said (except All Praise the Ancient of Days) thus far reeks of the concept that you have enough understanding to say the sky is up and the Earth is down. When it comes to God, that can't be true. That would make God less and serves only to build and puff you up, not God.

Time and time again, Jesus taught this when the teachers and scholars tested him. When his own disciples thought that precious oil should be sold to feed hungry children, and Jesus corrected them and said Mary's gift was appropriate because the act was pure.

This is ignorance or pride and it does a lot of damage by Christians to the world. I am a direct result of this damage. Other people like witches have been executed because of pride or ignorance. Whose right is it to judge what is what? Clearly, Jesus says it is not man's right. And that is why Christianity today is broken. You may not see it because you don't attend church. I still try to at least go to Sunday school to try and learn about your God, to see if anyone has faith that is clearly more than fluff. I know I don't want the faith of the Christians I am in contact with today. They do too much damage unknowingly with the best intentions. They forget the teachings of Paul of how to be a Chrisitian among babes. When the babes grow up, they think they eat meat, but are still just drinking milk. And it really is not their fault. And they are Christians? They can have it all. I'd rather be "free" than live a lie.

Christianity today is tainted by selfishness of "I want to be saved, or I want to serve God, or I don't want to go to hell, or I want to not have addicition, or I want..."

I am looking for one who does not serve out of selfishness, but instead says, "Here I am. Can you use me?"

In the broken machine, I don't know if I'll find what I'm looking for.

The evidence that would prove to me God exists is elusive at best.

I don't reject the notion of God, I reject religion. But, if there is a God, I would follow the Hebrew God. I just don't believe in God yet. I seek to believe and I seek to not believe. Right now, that's the best I can do to be myself, which is what I want to offer if there is a God. I could not offer a god a fake follower like some do. If there is any doubt, then you might be fake.

 

[Adstar]

Churches today may not be the churches they were 20 years ago. Christian churches are full of those who destroy the mystery of God and place it in a box so that they can get high. They don't know the difference between spirit and Holy Spirit. Even a non religious person can experience "holy fire".

So? Once again why this focus on the churchys ??? it is irrelevant when it comes to your relationship with God.

I did this for many years, I do understand the words.

You may indeed understand the simple concepts and you seem to have rejected them. But you do not understand the deeper things of the Word because God will block one who rejects the love of His truth from the deeper knowledge of salvation.

It makes sense save a few scriptures here and there. I know what is asked of me, and I know that God loves me. But, this is all under the presumption that God exists. That is why the Word is worthless without the believer or more importantly, God.


Are you kidding me? A book cannot prove itself.

Yes it can. The Wisdom of the Book can indeed prove itself to those who are open to the message.

The authors of the scriptures were flesh and blood, something else needs to sanctify the words and give credence to it for it to be the word of said deity.

If it were true that a book could prove itself

It does prove itself. Just because one disagrees with the conclusion to the story does not a false story make.

, why don't we also believe in Jack and the Beanstalk.

Who is caliming Jack and the Beanstalk is proven??? Why bring forth this silly comparison anyway?

The only thing that you can say is that your experience through fullfillment of the word has validated the words as sanctified.

No i believed the Baby food milk message that is the foundation of Salvation. The Holy Spirit built up my knowledge from that foundation. People who reject the foundation will never have anything built on it. The Holy Spirit will not work on a faulty foundation.

Yes, man should take responsibility for their actions. It is also many times prescribed in the scriptures as well. I don't know about you, but I atone for my sins with whom I sinned against (as is prescribed in the Christian Bible before talking to God), and if God were real I would also atone with God.

There ya go Pride....

I do not judge, but I am judged. Also, religion is not the keeper of altruism and morality. The problem I have is that I am judged by Christians, even as a Christian brother. Pride is a dangerous thing that none are immune to. Not even Paul, as he wrote about it. That is one reason why Jesus said, "...even the elect will be deceived."

No He didn't:

You put those Quote signs around that ...even the elect will be deceived as if you're quoting it from the Bible but no such quote exists, i am not surprised you cannot read the bible for what it actually says it is a miracle demonstrated right here before me. That a person who has rejected the love of the truth cannot read plain clear scriptures.

Here is what Jesus said Lets see if you can read it now and actually read what He said:

Matthew 24
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

and again in Mark
Mark 13
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Jesus said if possible And we who believe know through the guarding of the Holy Spirit it will not be possible to deceive the elect. Because the elect are elected by God to eternity with Him.

Yes, people would have to change in a very drastic way. It seems impossible, but with the attitude that there shall be no peace on Earth until God changes people, that breeds negativity and anger. Also pride in those that hunger for vengence on the judged wicked sinners.

It does not seem impossible. It is impossible. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. And the understanding that there shall be no peace on earth until God changes people does not breed negativity and anger in those who look forward with Hope and joy for that Day when God will restore us. I can see why it would cause negativity and anger in an athiest who has no hope for a future perfected existence. And the last sentence is just garbage. If we had pride and hunger for vengeance on sinners then we would have hunger for vengeance on ourselves. Because we are sinners just like the rest.

This is what i'm talking about. It is one-sided, rigid, and ugly outlook. I shared this outlook long ago. With this attitude you do not serve God because it does not serve God's purpose to bring love and foster the spirit. This statement is without hope.

What? I have Hope in God and joyful hope in eternity with Him.

Just because something is lost, does that mean we should give up hope to change things in the name of God? Does God want you truly to throw in the towel and stop trying to spread the love that the world needs to heal, just because you think it can't be done without God?

LOL The communist had the same delusion. The Nazi youth would have been starry eyed like you as they marched along ready to create a perfect Arian race. I bet a lot of Pol Pots Kim her rogue would have had the same attitude before the created the killing fields of cambodia. Million of Chinese died of starvation because of the great leap forward stuff up. Delusional humans who believe they can create a perfect society are the most destructive and dangerous people that exist. Just look at the economic disaster that the far right idealist globalist capitalists have wrought.

And one thing I do not throw in the towel when i comes to loving others and seeking to do good for others because i believe in that. But i know that none of my efforts will change human nature, i can only make efforts to reduce the damage i do to others and elevate the suffering caused on others. Just because i cannot create a perfect would does not mean i give up defeated. I am not doing it to create a perfect world. I am doing it because i love the Love of God and i wish to be loving.

Besides, if man is a faulty machine how can you trust yourself to know what is God and what isn't? The faulty machine is what finished off my faith. I don't hold it against them, I blamed God for not interceding when I asked simply to be there.

I don't trust myself. I trust in God. I trust that He can give me the wisdom and guidance i need to be where He wants me to be. Your faith was based on trusting yourself trusting in your thinking/logic to understand God to deduce what God would want of you and mankind in general. One thing is sure if there ever was a true relationship between you and God ( and i doubt there was) it would have been 100% your fault for it breaking down.

I would consider that it is a blessing to you in disguise that your former religious based belief in God has crumbled and collapsed. If you think about it if the Way you where going was the broad way that leads to death and not the narrow Way that leads to Eternal life then having your false religion destroyed in your mind gives you a chance to renew your search for the right Way.

It could have been my perception? Sure, it could have been, but that is precisely why Christians should not judge as I was judged as a Christian and as I am judged now.

It is up to Christians to give to others what they believe and sound a warning to others. If people feel judged because of that then that shows a lack of confidence in their disbelief. It may also show a conscience in turmoil. A confident person at peace with themselves will not be shaken by conviction.

The simple fact is, is if God exists, then what business does man have in proclaiming they know all about God, enough to judge what is and what isn't. You do not realize that every word you have said (except All Praise the Ancient of Days) thus far reeks of the concept that you have enough understanding to say the sky is up and the Earth is down. When it comes to God, that can't be true. That would make God less and serves only to build and puff you up, not God.

Man has a business in proclaiming a message from God when God calls upon them to do so. Jesus who is "God With Us" gave His followers direction to proclaim The Gospel to the ends of the World until His return and that’s what His followers have been doing since that day. It is not I who am puffed up, It is i whom has been Lifted up by God through the Holy Spirit. Yeah i know i am faulty and a contemptible human being. But God does not choose the goody goodies to be His messengers remember Jonah? remember Mosses? remember King David? All very faulty human beings. Not the goody goody types at all.

Also i do not claim to know God in totality. No one but God knows God in totality. I know what i have been given to know. What ever that is, that is.

This is ignorance or pride and it does a lot of damage by Christians to the world. I am a direct result of this damage.

Once again Judging God by His supposed followers. Not by His Word.

Other people like witches have been executed because of pride or ignorance.

Once again Judging God by His Supposed followers. Not by His Word.

Whose right is it to judge what is what?

I will give what i feel lead to give. You decide how you want to react to what i give. that’s your prerogative. And the Word of God gives a message to you and you can likewise respond to it as you deem fit. You response to His Word is what will Judge you.

Clearly, Jesus says it is not man's right. And that is why Christianity today is broken. You may not see it because you don't attend church.

Christianity is Not Church. Christianity is His Message and those who believe and trust in Him and His message Are the Body of Christ.

I still try to at least go to Sunday school to try and learn about your God,

Open the Bible and pray ask God for understanding. Don't go to Sunday school and get some second hand stuff from people who may indeed be as deluded as the most deceived person on earth.

to see if anyone has faith that is clearly more than fluff. I know I don't want the faith of the Christians I am in contact with today. They do too much damage unknowingly with the best intentions. They forget the teachings of Paul of how to be a Chrisitian among babes. When the babes grow up, they think they eat meat, but are still just drinking milk. And it really is not their fault. And they are Christians? They can have it all. I'd rather be "free" than live a lie.

Nothing about the churches and their congregations and what they have done or failed to do justifies anyone in there rejection of the Word of God. It is the Word of God that saves not churches.

Christianity today is tainted by selfishness of "I want to be saved, or I want to serve God, or I don't want to go to hell, or I want to not have addicition, or I want..."

Again it does not matter a rats ass what is happening in the churches. I am getting fed up responding to something that is irrelevant.

I don't reject the notion of God, I reject religion. But, if there is a God, I would follow the Hebrew God. I just don't believe in God yet. I seek to believe and I seek to not believe. Right now, that's the best I can do to be myself, which is what I want to offer if there is a God. I could not offer a god a fake follower like some do. If there is any doubt, then you might be fake.

Do you want to make me your Messiah??
Like you made the churches your Messiah and became disillusioned?
Who is the Redeemer?
In Whom can you trust?
What are you looking for?
Some person who will just tell you where to go and what to do each day of your life?

As for me you can make up your own mind about me if i am genuine, fake, true or false. My salvation is between God and me i do not trust in any church, i do not trust in any preacher, any government, my mother, my dad or my brothers or sisters and i will never trust in you. I trust God and in the Salvation that He has provided for me.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[scifes]

Atheist and theist have one thing in common.... An absence of evidence for God.
..................

theists are psychics, atheists are all knowing...

so if a theist is psychic enough, he becomes an atheist.

when the word irony just fails at doing its job........

 

[Medicine*Woman]

It doesnt sound like you agree.

So you can read their minds?

Ah, suspect. OK
May have been. Perhaps.

It is amazing how one assumption can support another assumption..

*************
M*W: What's amazing is that you want to argue words and phrases instead of the point. That's why I rarely ever read your posts. Therefore, I don't know where you're coming from (nor do I want to). If you don't understand something, you should ask, and it will be explained to you. But, there's no point in you trying to derail the thread, because you don't/won't/can't understand.

 

[jayleew]

So? Once again why this focus on the churchys ??? it is irrelevant when it comes to your relationship with God.

Yes, it is irrelevant. I was just pointing out that I am talking about Christianity today as defined as what is in churches, which you know little about since you yourself do not go to church.

I don't know why you assumed I was talking about those who follow their own perceived path. The non-members of a Christian-affliated church. I think you might have one thing right in not going to church and getting wrapped up in politics of the church.

You may indeed understand the simple concepts and you seem to have rejected them. But you do not understand the deeper things of the Word because God will block one who rejects the love of His truth from the deeper knowledge of salvation.

Yes, that's it, I just understand the simple stuff, unlike you.

I live by every concept in the Word. It is altruistic enough to use as a guide of morality and outlook. But you are right there must be something there that you have...like maybe God? That's my point you are missing.

Yes it can. The Wisdom of the Book can indeed prove itself to those who are open to the message.

The same is true with any book. Name any work, and it can be based on a subject that is true, but the characters are not. The Bible is like any book.

Hypothetically, if God did not exist, you certainly wouldn't believe the Bible true would you?

No i believed the Baby food milk message that is the foundation of Salvation. The Holy Spirit built up my knowledge from that foundation. People who reject the foundation will never have anything built on it. The Holy Spirit will not work on a faulty foundation.

Some theologians would disagree, and some might agree. You see my point yet?

You put those Quote signs around that ...even the elect will be deceived as if you're quoting it from the Bible but no such quote exists, i am not surprised you cannot read the bible for what it actually says it is a miracle demonstrated right here before me. That a person who has rejected the love of the truth cannot read plain clear scriptures.

Here is what Jesus said Lets see if you can read it now and actually read what He said:

Matthew 24
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The concept is the same, forgive me the word structure sheesh. You are deflecting from the point of the passage that false teachings will decieve even the elect. If it is possible to deceive even the elect, then how can you be so sure about everything?

It does not seem impossible. It is impossible. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. And the understanding that there shall be no peace on earth until God changes people does not breed negativity and anger in those who look forward with Hope and joy for that Day when God will restore us. I can see why it would cause negativity and anger in an athiest who has no hope for a future perfected existence. And the last sentence is just garbage. If we had pride and hunger for vengeance on sinners then we would have hunger for vengeance on ourselves. Because we are sinners just like the rest.

Nothing is impossible, if you believe we were made in the image of God. It was God who tore the tower of Babel. I may not agree with the people in why it was built, but it definitely shows that nothing is impossible when people work together.

Are you saying that it is a piece of cake not to harbor negativity with the thought that there shall be no peace on Earth?

About how many will not be able to eat the cake and grasp the hope?

Pessimism breeds negativity, and negativity dispair, anger, and depression.

LOL The communist had the same delusion. The Nazi youth would have been starry eyed like you as they marched along ready to create a perfect Arian race. I bet a lot of Pol Pots Kim her rogue would have had the same attitude before the created the killing fields of cambodia. Million of Chinese died of starvation because of the great leap forward stuff up. Delusional humans who believe they can create a perfect society are the most destructive and dangerous people that exist. Just look at the economic disaster that the far right idealist globalist capitalists have wrought.

Theres a big difference between delusion and optimism. You have to ask yourself, what is possible for me to do about the problem, not be deluded that there is even a solution.

And one thing I do not throw in the towel when i comes to loving others and seeking to do good for others because i believe in that. But i know that none of my efforts will change human nature, i can only make efforts to reduce the damage i do to others and elevate the suffering caused on others. Just because i cannot create a perfect would does not mean i give up defeated. I am not doing it to create a perfect world. I am doing it because i love the Love of God and i wish to be loving.

I don't doubt this. This is the second part of the golden rule.

I don't trust myself. I trust in God. I trust that He can give me the wisdom and guidance i need to be where He wants me to be. Your faith was based on trusting yourself trusting in your thinking/logic to understand God to deduce what God would want of you and mankind in general. One thing is sure if there ever was a true relationship between you and God ( and i doubt there was) it would have been 100% your fault for it breaking down.

Thanks for proving my point. And you will ask, what point? Well, it has to do with the disciples and Mary Magdeline.

Now, as a response:
No sir, your faith is based on trusting yourself that you are trusting God. I don't trust myself, that is one reason I had to stop and question my life experience in regards to the notion of God. I didn't want to question what I already had believed to be the workings of God. I was very happy living the lie. I had to stop because of who I am, and that I had little control over. It was God who chose when and where I would come into existence, if there is a God. It is certainly its fault for the man I am today. For better or for worse, I cannot help the way I think. It is by design. Either by a creator or natural selection. You doubt there was a relationship? Well, I don't doubt yours. I just don't understand it.

I would consider that it is a blessing to you in disguise that your former religious based belief in God has crumbled and collapsed. If you think about it if the Way you where going was the broad way that leads to death and not the narrow Way that leads to Eternal life then having your false religion destroyed in your mind gives you a chance to renew your search for the right Way.

Maybe Adstar, I wonder, but we shall see if God shows up.

It is up to Christians to give to others what they believe and sound a warning to others. If people feel judged because of that then that shows a lack of confidence in their disbelief. It may also show a conscience in turmoil. A confident person at peace with themselves will not be shaken by conviction.

This is true, and not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Christians passing judgement based on their perceived knowledge another person has. Using their power of influence or their number of years as a Christian as ammunition to be right.

Man has a business in proclaiming a message from God when God calls upon them to do so. Jesus who is "God With Us" gave His followers direction to proclaim The Gospel to the ends of the World until His return and that’s what His followers have been doing since that day. It is not I who am puffed up, It is i whom has been Lifted up by God through the Holy Spirit. Yeah i know i am faulty and a contemptible human being. But God does not choose the goody goodies to be His messengers remember Jonah? remember Mosses? remember King David? All very faulty human beings. Not the goody goody types at all.

Also i do not claim to know God in totality. No one but God knows God in totality. I know what i have been given to know. What ever that is, that is.

But, you do claim to be lifted up. It's a bold statement. This shouldn't be something that one who is lifted up should say. Instead, he who is lifted up should do and let God do the talking. If you are confident, then there should be no need to say it. You don't read about all the messengers you named saying any of that.

Open the Bible and pray ask God for understanding. Don't go to Sunday school and get some second hand stuff from people who may indeed be as deluded as the most deceived person on earth.

Indeed, people may be deluded as the most deceived person on earth. Those people exist outside of the Church and on SciForums too. But, I refuse to pass judgement and assume. I will look for God everywhere. The problem is, I might be wasting my time.

Nothing about the churches and their congregations and what they have done or failed to do justifies anyone in there rejection of the Word of God. It is the Word of God that saves not churches.

No, Jesus saves, not the Word of God. There was a time that there was no written word, so surely I will find God without the Word...if it exists.

Again it does not matter a rats ass what is happening in the churches. I am getting fed up responding to something that is irrelevant.

Then don't. It maybe irrelevant to a relationship with a deity, but it is relevant to my statement about Christianity which is defined by believers in churches and not in churches. If there were no churches, Christianity would die.

Do you want to make me your Messiah??
Like you made the churches your Messiah and became disillusioned?

Sure. So, would you like to go have a beer later since you know me so well?
Is this how you receive the Word?

What are you looking for?

God or evidence that God is an impossibility.

As for me you can make up your own mind about me if i am genuine, fake, true or false. My salvation is between God and me i do not trust in any church, i do not trust in any preacher, any government, my mother, my dad or my brothers or sisters and i will never trust in you. I trust God and in the Salvation that He has provided for me.

Fair enough. Why did you feel the need to say this?

 

[jayleew]

No, they aren't psychics. What are psychics?

 

[lightgigantic]

I think its more of a case of "Do atheists miss it by default?"

something like this

 

[Doreen]

*************
M*W: What's amazing is that you want to argue words and phrases instead of the point. That's why I rarely ever read your posts. Therefore, I don't know where you're coming from (nor do I want to). If you don't understand something, you should ask, and it will be explained to you. But, there's no point in you trying to derail the thread, because you don't/won't/can't understand.

Words and phrases are what we have of each other here. We are discussing ideas and conclusions that we think are true. I have nowhere else to look but at your words.

And notice how your post changed because of my questions are responses!

You went from saying that everyone was pretending, period, to qualified statements with 'maybe' and 'suspect'. This is a science forum and if you start making claims to know what a whole group of people is 'really' doing, of course it is correct for me to question this. And frankly for your own integrity it would seem to be important, also to only say things you know, rather than accusing a large group people of something you really don't know is true.

If you look at my earlier posts in the thread it is clear I understand the thread, in fact I supported the OP in my first post.

 

[Adstar]

Yes, it is irrelevant. I was just pointing out that I am talking about Christianity today as defined as what is in churches, which you know little about since you yourself do not go to church.

I don't know why you assumed I was talking about those who follow their own perceived path. The non-members of a Christian-affliated church. I think you might have one thing right in not going to church and getting wrapped up in politics of the church.


Yes, that's it, I just understand the simple stuff, unlike you.

I live by every concept in the Word. It is altruistic enough to use as a guide of morality and outlook. But you are right there must be something there that you have...like maybe God? That's my point you are missing.


The same is true with any book. Name any work, and it can be based on a subject that is true, but the characters are not. The Bible is like any book.

Hypothetically, if God did not exist, you certainly wouldn't believe the Bible true would you?


Some theologians would disagree, and some might agree. You see my point yet?




The concept is the same, forgive me the word structure sheesh. You are deflecting from the point of the passage that false teachings will decieve even the elect. If it is possible to deceive even the elect, then how can you be so sure about everything?


Nothing is impossible, if you believe we were made in the image of God. It was God who tore the tower of Babel. I may not agree with the people in why it was built, but it definitely shows that nothing is impossible when people work together.

Are you saying that it is a piece of cake not to harbor negativity with the thought that there shall be no peace on Earth?

About how many will not be able to eat the cake and grasp the hope?

Pessimism breeds negativity, and negativity dispair, anger, and depression.


Theres a big difference between delusion and optimism. You have to ask yourself, what is possible for me to do about the problem, not be deluded that there is even a solution.


I don't doubt this. This is the second part of the golden rule.




Thanks for proving my point. And you will ask, what point? Well, it has to do with the disciples and Mary Magdeline.

Now, as a response:
No sir, your faith is based on trusting yourself that you are trusting God. I don't trust myself, that is one reason I had to stop and question my life experience in regards to the notion of God. I didn't want to question what I already had believed to be the workings of God. I was very happy living the lie. I had to stop because of who I am, and that I had little control over. It was God who chose when and where I would come into existence, if there is a God. It is certainly its fault for the man I am today. For better or for worse, I cannot help the way I think. It is by design. Either by a creator or natural selection. You doubt there was a relationship? Well, I don't doubt yours. I just don't understand it.


Maybe Adstar, I wonder, but we shall see if God shows up.



This is true, and not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Christians passing judgement based on their perceived knowledge another person has. Using their power of influence or their number of years as a Christian as ammunition to be right.


But, you do claim to be lifted up. It's a bold statement. This shouldn't be something that one who is lifted up should say. Instead, he who is lifted up should do and let God do the talking. If you are confident, then there should be no need to say it. You don't read about all the messengers you named saying any of that.


Indeed, people may be deluded as the most deceived person on earth. Those people exist outside of the Church and on SciForums too. But, I refuse to pass judgement and assume. I will look for God everywhere. The problem is, I might be wasting my time.


No, Jesus saves, not the Word of God. There was a time that there was no written word, so surely I will find God without the Word...if it exists.



Then don't. It maybe irrelevant to a relationship with a deity, but it is relevant to my statement about Christianity which is defined by believers in churches and not in churches. If there were no churches, Christianity would die.



Sure. So, would you like to go have a beer later since you know me so well?
Is this how you receive the Word?



God or evidence that God is an impossibility.



Fair enough. Why did you feel the need to say this?

Well i made an effort to reach you. Most of my posts in this forum these days are not in reply to the original poster, because most of the posters on this forum are doomed in my opinion. I reply in hope for the third person reader who may never post on this forum. But these posts have been to you jayleew.

As i thought with your desire to see men take responsibility for there actions you have rejected the Milk knowledge of salvation and have been incapable of understanding most of my reply even when i spell it out with bolded quotes to add emphasis to the revealing Words. After i did the last reply i went for a big walk and was about to ask God to help you see the truth. But as i began to think the thoughts i realised that if you had already rejected the Love of the Truth then there was no way that any request from me was going move God into letting someone who has rejected His gift of salvation come to that salvation.

So anyway my direct posting to you has come to an end.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[jayleew]

Well i made an effort to reach you. Most of my posts in this forum these days are not in reply to the original poster, because most of the posters on this forum are doomed in my opinion. I reply in hope for the third person reader who may never post on this forum. But these posts have been to you jayleew.

As i thought with your desire to see men take responsibility for there actions you have rejected the Milk knowledge of salvation and have been incapable of understanding most of my reply even when i spell it out with bolded quotes to add emphasis to the revealing Words. After i did the last reply i went for a big walk and was about to ask God to help you see the truth. But as i began to think the thoughts i realised that if you had already rejected the Love of the Truth then there was no way that any request from me was going move God into letting someone who has rejected His gift of salvation come to that salvation.

So anyway my direct posting to you has come to an end.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

Your efforts were a waste, I am not interested in your one-sided arguments. Everything you say is filtered through your god's siff. As it should be when you are talking to your fellow believers. If you can't acknowledge and empathize with my concerns with believing in God, then you can't possibly move my thoughts forward. You've never had concerns since you accepted Christ it seems, but I don't know for sure. Simply put, it would be better for you to ignore everything I say, I am a danger to your faith, as strong as it appears to be.

 

[Adstar]

Your efforts were a waste, I am not interested in your one-sided arguments. Everything you say is filtered through your god's siff. As it should be when you are talking to your fellow believers. If you can't acknowledge and empathize with my concerns with believing in God, then you can't possibly move my thoughts forward. You've never had concerns since you accepted Christ it seems, but I don't know for sure. Simply put, it would be better for you to ignore everything I say, I am a danger to your faith, as strong as it appears to be.

Danger to my faith?? I have never for a moment even considered you a danger to my faith.

I have been a member in this forum for years and have read probably every argument that exists against God there is to read. My belief has only been strengthened during this time. Be assured you are not a danger to my Faith. No amount of slander, mockery, psychological warfare or any other forms of abuse will cause me danger while The Holy Spirit dwells within me.

Oh and the length of my posts and the effort i put into them is testament enough of my acknowledgement of your concerns. It is you who have been unable to acknowledge my answers clearly written.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Danger to my faith?? I have never for a moment even considered you a danger to my faith.

The only person who is a danger to your faith Adstar is yourself. Not trying to be funny or sarcastic but you're right, none of us are the least bit dangerous, and that's a fact. You've never wavered and you deserve credit for that at least.

But are you psychic by default? I might as well come right out and ask the only true honest theist in the forum. Not trying to set you up, so trust me on this one. Am I correct in feeling confident that you feel God within you and all around you, His omnipresence? Do you feel His love and all His good, His power and His might, His anger and His fury, etc.? Would you consider your sensing of God as supernatural or beyond your ability to physically sense Him? If so, do you think that makes you psychic?

 

[Adstar]

The only person who is a danger to your faith Adstar is yourself. Not trying to be funny or sarcastic but you're right, none of us are the least bit dangerous, and that's a fact. You've never wavered and you deserve credit for that at least.

But are you psychic by default?

As i have posted in this thread already. i see psychic's as people who claim to have been given a power that they now have. Like it is their's it eminates from them. It is now there power. Like they have their own generator and light bulb and they cause the light to shine.

A Christian however is like a little switch on the wall that people click to turn the light on. The power produces the light does not have its source from that little switch, it comes from the megga watt power station through that switch. So while to the uneducated eye it might seem that the switch caused the light to come on, the truth of the matter is the switch only plays a very minor role in the Light.

So with that i do not see myself as psychic or any Christian as psychic. you do not need any psyhic powers when the source can just pick you to shine through.

I might as well come right out and ask the only true honest theist in the forum. Not trying to set you up, so trust me on this one. Am I correct in feeling confident that you feel God within you and all around you,

I have problems with this "feel" descriptor. It kind of leads people to believe that there is some kind of physical sensation or a sensation that is observable by the human senses that Christians "feel". A lot of people actually give up on seeking God because they are not experiencing some kind of "feeling" sensation and when they don't feel it they assume God is not interested in having a relationship with them. tragic indeed.

What i can say is that i have experienced strong emotional states due to being convicted by God about some person or issue. I have also seen the future in my dreams crystal clear, like a video tape replayed. And i experience an incredible feeling of inner peace when i pray. So much so that i need to stop praying or else i will fall asleep sitting in front of the computer. It is as if God is saying I already know what your prayer is before you say it, it has already been heard. So have this peace and move on or go to sleep. Often i start praying in bed then i wake up and it is the next day.

Oh i never feel God around me. Like some people report a feeling of someone being in the room like a person who believes in ghosts or some other paranormal entity.

God inside. Well i know He is with me. But actually feeling something inside of me, No i cannot say i do.

His omnipresence?

How could i experience His omnipresence? Not sure anyone has ever "experienced" that.

Do you feel His love and all His good,

I feel loved by Him yeah for sure.

But how can i feel His good? Not sure how that can be experienced within me.

His power and His might, His anger and His fury, etc.?

Well i have experienced the effects of His Power. But the greatest effect Has been His wisdom. I cannot say i have experience of His fury. Or Anger.

Would you consider your sensing of God as supernatural or beyond your ability to physically sense Him?

If God makes His presence known then it is He who is doing it. I don't believe anyone has the ability to physically detect/Sense God by their own power. That’s why science has never and will never be a tool that can be used to either confirm or refute the existence of God. Because the scientific method only deals with what can be observed and measured within the Physical universe. God is not a product of the universe He exists independent of the universe, in fact He is the Creator of the universe. Science cannot measure what lies beyond the physical universe. Therefore it cannot be used as a tool of measure where God is concerned.

If so, do you think that makes you psychic?

Nope i do not think i am psychic.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days