Arab culture before monotheism

So basically you're saying it is wrong for Obama to criticise elements of his own society because social reform takes away wonderful cultural practices? If the Arabs were burying infants they were groping around in ignorance, just like those who took a bath because the shadow of a lower caste man fell on him. No doubt, it was a "splendid culture" [in quotes because no one cared enough to leave any record of it], but hey even modern day Americans run torture camps and American history will judge them no less harshly for it. :)
No, I'm saying that I don't believe Arabs routinely buried their children. Just as I don't believe Chinese and Indians routinely murder their female babies.

You should feel VERY VERY uncomfortable with the phrase "Animal-Like" SAM. It's GLARINGLY OBVIOUS what's going on here.


Come on SAM, please....
 
I'm surprised at you. You are as presentist as they are. To the extent of defending female infanticide by denying it could have happened. Hilarious :D
You've drank one too many gulps of the koolaid SAM, if you're going to buy into that.

No one here is defending female infanticide because it was NEVER socially acceptable! SAM, there was an Arab Roman Emperor, Arabs lived in Britain, etc... it's obvious they were not "Animal-Like".
 
Ah you don't believe. Thats your prerogative.
OK SAM, what do you think about this paragraph:

We may sum up the social situation in Arabia by saying that the Arabs of the pre-Islamic period were groping about in the dark and ignorance, entangled in a mesh of superstitions paralyzing their mind and driving them to lead an animal- like life. The woman was a marketable commodity and regarded as a piece of inanimate property.


M
 
You've drank one too many gulps of the koolaid SAM, if you're going to buy into that.

No one here is defending female infanticide because it was NEVER socially acceptable! SAM, there was an Arab Roman Emperor, Arabs lived in Britain, etc... it's obvious they were not "Animal-Like".

But retrospectively people tend to condemn those who lived in different times and had different social values. You should recognise that, as you do it all the time. But, everyone is free to think of the improvements that change in society brings, especially when its your own society. Its not like those animals are still around, though instances of stoning in Somalia would likely render a similar response from some people. Like you said, its unhygienic for the abos to be shitting and pissing on the front lawn, though they have been used to it for 70,000 years. Did they come to that conclusion on their own? But I bet they have well-wishers who let them know how depraved and backward they are. Why, some people even have issues about how a toilet is used!
 
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Its not like those animals are still around, though instances of blah blah blah blah
Look SAM, I don't believe that Arabs acted like Animals. I think what we have a case here is the victor rewriting history. As an Indian I would think you'd know better.

now take a read of DH post and if it doesn't hurt too much, take a look in the mirror.

Islam made the Arabs into the strongest, proudest, and most noble people the world had ever seen. From ignorant nomads into an educated and devoted community. Without Islam, the Arabs have nothing. Just as without Islam, the Persians, Turks, South Asians, an North Africans have nothing.
History would suggest otherwise DH.

I could tell you of the great achievements that the Persians made before Islam.
We could discuss the loss of the human figure in sculpture post-Islam.
Or discuss the finer points of history. We could discuss the wealthy Arab Citizens who helped build develop the Roman Empire. Are the Arab that WAS a Roman Emperor! All how the ME was FAMOUS for it's human marble works.

But, it's a waste of time because you're completely brainwashed mate. Any koolaid left in that cup of your over there? Walk away from the PC, go get your fairytale book and read about magical flying fairy horses and the magical Prophet and his talking invisible angel.

Meanwhile the few rational adults left in the forum will discuss grownup stuff,

Michael
 
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Just reading this sentence:

We may sum up the social situation in Arabia by saying that the Arabs of the pre-Islamic period were groping about in the dark and ignorance, entangled in a mesh of superstitions paralyzing their mind and driving them to lead an animal- like life. The woman was a marketable commodity and regarded as a piece of inanimate property.

and knowing that DH and SAM support this crap makes me :puke:
explains at lot as well.
 
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Honestly, can you imagine living around a bunch of people who think like this?
It'd be like living in Bizarro World, up is down, good is bad, right is wrong...
 
The idea! Arabs getting an education, rather than killing babies for superstition! Hoe dare you!!!!!!
Except that Arabs didn't go around routinely killing their babies. I'd suggest you to pull your head out but I can barely see your shoulders, you are wedged so deep up there. Talk about an impacted rectum! :D

From ignorant nomads into an educated and devoted community. Without Islam, the Arabs have nothing. Just as without Islam, the Persians, Turks, South Asians, an North Africans have nothing

blah blah blah....

DH, you are an excellent example for everyone to see how an otherwise normal individual could be severely mentally crippled due to a religous meme.

You serve as a warning and a good one at that!

Thanks DH!




It's easy to recognize that it was wrong for the British to invade India, but when Muslims do the same thing - in kicks the little religious meme and *poof* instant excuse.

* Muslims Crusades against the Zoroastrian Persians - hey it's OK they were under threat (even though they lived side by side for 5000+ years)
* Muslims Crusades against the Xian Spanish - oh, now it's to help people (and help themselves to the Monastery's treasures)
* Muslim Crusades against the Arab Polytheists - oh, now it's Mohammad was Arab and so it's OK again.

and on we go. Shia kills Sunni, hey it's OK they're infidels. Sunni kills Shia, hey it's OK they worship Ali. You know as they say: Ali Allah Ali Allah Ali Allah Ali Allah Ali Allah *BOOM*

And On and On they go - like a little wind up toys.

- The Americans demonize Muslims - it's wrong.
- The British demonzie all of the people they conquered - it's wrong.
- The Muslims deionized the Arabs they conquered - now it's "education".


Here we have SAM and DH almost salivating at the chops. One kook calls Arabs "Animals" and SAM's little meme program kicks in and it's all good.

You're a real educational experiment.

- Compare the superstition Islam with that of Xenu = This is patronizing.
- Suggest Hindues are simpletons who need to "see" "touch" and "feel" their Gods = Now it's fine, compassionate even.

On a psychological level this level of brainwash is intriguing. But, at some point it can become a little boring I must admit.

meh,
Michael
 
I think SAM(s), more than anyone, really shows how detrimental superstitions can become. Here are a couple of people who can, on an intellectual bases, recognize that it's wrong to demonize other humans as "Barbarian" or "Terrorists" etc.. the SAMs know this to be true. Yet here they are, happily suggesting that the ignorant backwards Arabs were in need of "education" (these are the same Arabs that produced an Emperor of Rome mind you, these are the same Arabs that produces fine arts, built civilizations, ...). Yet, according to SAMs they were in such dire need of "education", I mean, they were Soooo "barbaric" in SAMs's (and especially DH's opinion) that they were nothing, no better than animals, and this then justifies even their murder and the military destruction of their entire society.


It's really pathetic isn't it?


Seems that way, but I was thinking, maybe not.
Lets look at this from a medical point of view. Their superstitious meme is an infection of sorts. Here's an idea: Perhaps said meme, which in essence is just a set of very simple ideas, is causing the upregulation of specific proteins that are then changing the actual cytoarchitecture of the neural net, altering the physical structure of the brain itself. Thus causing an actual physical mental impairment. No different than a severe and highly localized trauma to the brain can affect the rational thinking processes. Rendering a person mentally retarded for specific thinking processes. No longer able to recognize faces, yet, able to perform all other functions apparently normally.

So? Pathetic? No.
A pity? Yes.
 
Let's just take a look at this one more time, you know, in case anyone missed the propaganda. And let's also remember, that's I'm the one here calling this bullshit, SAM and DH, instead of agreeing with me, are swimming in it. Oh, I'd also like to note the use of the word "superstitious". I mean, please....

We may sum up the social situation in Arabia by saying that the Arabs of the pre-Islamic period were groping about in the dark and ignorance, entangled in a mesh of superstitions paralyzing their mind and driving them to lead an animal- like life. The woman was a marketable commodity and regarded as a piece of inanimate property.
 
What about sati? You think the people who committed and enforced sati were living in enlightened times? Whats your opinion of people who drugged women and burned them alive on a funeral pyre, say, in the last decade?
 
SAM said:
What about sati? You think the people who committed and enforced sati were living in enlightened times? Whats your opinion of people who drugged women and burned them alive on a funeral pyre, say, in the last decade?
I think the Brits who stepped on that in the name of bettering their civilization were right to do so.

And the Brits made other improvements, introduced - what's Diamond's word - some "nobility" to the people they regarded as lesser beings.

But that doesn't make the Brits God's gift to India.

Do you suppose those animal-like peoples, those "kafir", bear any resemblance to the "nigger" of the Brits?

diamond said:
They were the forefathers of the modern scientific revolution, the cultivates of the Islamic renaissance throughout the world. Ibn Sina, Al Jabar, Biruni, Bukhari, Muslim, Ghazali, these are giants in the history of the world sciences.
So what happened? That wasn't exactly the "modern" scientific revolution. That was quite a while ago. And "throughout the world"? The world is much bigger than that. Around the Mediterranean, maybe.
 
DiamondHearts,

You're the one who said Arabs were ignorant nomads and Persians were nothing without Islam. Maybe you should crack open a history book and read it.

Is Calculus Christian Math? Was the European Enlightenment and Renaissance really The Christian Gold Age? Do you really think that? Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Did Muslim's make some progress? Sure - but, relatively little and did so very slowly. It's hard to make advancements with a 10-ton superstitious rock tied around your neck. I've asked many times for an example of human sculpture from the "Islamic"/Middle East "Golden" Age. I've asked for an example of a great peace of architecture in the Muslim ME? I've asked for all the wondrous cities that were founded during the so called "Islamic" not-so golden age.

What do I get:
- Islamic Human sculpture = almost non existence. Shows regression not progression.

- Islamic Architecture in the Middle East = almost nothing novel. There are no Great Pyramids - theres nothing all that great, even mosques are a copy of a Roman Church which itself is based on a Roman polytheistic Temple to a pagan God. Funny isn't it DH? All mosques were ultimately inspired by Polytheistic Pagan Romans. That's a fact of history - open a book.

- All of the wonderful cities that were founded? Let's see, there's all of One: Baghdad.. and then there's ... gee pretty much nothing. Nothing DH. And even Baghdad is just the Ancestral Persian Capitol shifted a few miles. The Zoroastrians had already built their capitol there DH. Thousands of years before Islam

- Islam spread information all over the world :bugeye:? Ahhh yeah, sure DH. And Mohammad rode a winged fairy creature up to a magical sky daddy.. keep smoking what you're smoking.



The point of this thread is simply that Arab polytheists were NOT animal-like ignorant nomads and that it's sick to suggest they were.

It's called Propaganda DH.

Just like the term "Islamic" Golden Age or here's a good oxymoron: "Islamic" Science. How stupid "Islamic" Science. Just like Xian Calculus... just ridiculous.


Here's the kicker: You think it was a GREAT thing that Islam (Xiantiy with a twist of lime) united the Arabs so they could make war on and conquer their neighbors lands?!? Gee DH, how nice of you. I bet you only wish you were there to help chop people's heads off. You must love the Mongolians! I mean, they were united and killed and conquered many more people than the Arabs. Wow, Mongolian Shamanism is sooo wonderful huh DH... Making any sense yet.

I didn't think so, kool aids a little thick today huh?




You revile in the fact that your religion led people to murder other people. Just great. You call Arabs ignorant nomads and then suggest they only STOP being ignorant nomads when they start killing people and stealing their land :bugeye:

Like I said: Bizarro World No wonder the ME is in the shape it's in.

M
 
So what happened? That wasn't exactly the "modern" scientific revolution. That was quite a while ago. And "throughout the world"? The world is much bigger than that. Around the Mediterranean, maybe.

Colonialism happened. When your entire system is dismantled and your society is enslaved by foreign powers, how do expect things to be as they were.

We live in the shadow of our glory because of the violent suppression and destruction wrought by the invaders from Europe.

The Muslim world is, and has been for two centuries, on the defensive against foreign invasions and it is a battle for survival for us. That is why, when the future of the people is so perilous, how do you expect us to progress?
 
I think the Brits who stepped on that in the name of bettering their civilization were right to do so.
Agreed
And the Brits made other improvements, introduced - what's Diamond's word - some "nobility" to the people they regarded as lesser beings.


But that doesn't make the Brits God's gift to India.

Also agreed
Do you suppose those animal-like peoples, those "kafir", bear any resemblance to the "nigger" of the Brits?

Nope, because those were people in the same community. ie Mohammed was preaching not to some foreign occupied people on the demerits of female infanticide, but to his own people, his uncle his cousins his collegues and his neighbors. Do you think, by calling The Dark Ages so, the modern Europeans are dehumanising their ancestors? When they express disgust, for example, at the heads on pikes or the severed limbs hung in every district as a warning? When they discuss "barbaric practices" is it equivalent to niggerdom?

So what happened?
The dark ages descended down from Europe.
 
SAM said:
Nope, because those were people in the same community
Not according to Diamond, who describes the Persian language (for example) "spreading" across large areas of formerly disparate peoples.
SAM said:
So what happened?

The dark ages descended down from Europe.
Again, like the weather these vague and unspecified bad things happen.

No accountability.
 
Colonialism happened. When your entire system is dismantled and your society is enslaved by foreign powers, how do expect things to be as they were.

We live in the shadow of our glory because of the violent suppression and destruction wrought by the invaders from Europe.

The Muslim world is, and has been for two centuries, on the defensive against foreign invasions and it is a battle for survival for us. That is why, when the future of the people is so perilous, how do you expect us to progress?
Colonialism WAS bad. Yes, it is wrong to conquer other people at least IMO. Too bad you could use this same sort of thinking when considering the colonization of Persia or Egypt or India or Constantinople or Spain, by Arabs. For some reason you (and SAM) seem to think it's OK when it's that way around.

How original.

Second: China was powerful and rich. China was weak and leaderless. China was carved up and colonized by Europeans. China was invaded by Japan. China had a revolution. China became Communist. China was poor as dirt. China struggled to become better.

Where do we stop and say which is the fault of the Europeans? Colonization? Japanese? and the Chinese themselves? If China becomes successful now, is this also the "fault" of Colonization? The Japanese? The Chinese?

I wonder why Singapore, an ex-British colony, is prosperous and Malaysia and Indonesia poor? When I ask Singaporeans they always say this: Muslims are lazy. I'm sure this is not true, as I know hard working Muslims. So why? Why are the non-Muslim Singaporeans wealthy and their adjacent neighbors poor?


Europeans used to be poor too, during a time when they were ruled by superstitious beleif. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
 
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Nope, because those were people in the same community. ie Mohammed was preaching not to some foreign occupied people on the demerits of female infanticide, but to his own people, his uncle his cousins his collegues and his neighbors.
Firstly, there were many non-relatives non-colleagues living in Arabia. There were lots of Xians and Jews not related to Mohammad that didn't share his beleifs. I wonder if they also cut off the heads of all their female children? Because they were killed and converted along with the polytheistic Arabs.

Again, you are making the assumption that Arab people did these grotesque things and then you post hoc assume that Mohammad's preaching (and murdering them) made them a better people. (lets not forget the Arab who ran the Roman Empire as the Emperor and all the millions of successful Arabs who lived from England to Egypt).


Firstly, there is no evidence that most people in Arabia routinely killed their female children - this is more than likely a lie made up by apologists like yourself after the fact.

Secondly, there's a difference in preaching a new way or thinking (which is fine) and murdering people for not thinking the way you do. You seem to suggest that because Mohammad was from a neighboring tribe that this then make murdering these people justifiable. What kind of bullshit is this? You're just making up anything to justify anything. I suppose it's fine for the Americans to murder Iraqis? I mean, they do things we consider immoral. Honor Killings comes to mind. They're human, we're human. Or, They're Arab, we have millions of American Arabs. So according to SAM's logic it's fine. Or I know, it's fine to murder your children - I mean, you're related to them after all (Bizarro logic in Bizzaro world)

Murdering other people is wrong, why justify it SAM? I suspect soon you'll tell us the British colonization of India was justifiable. The only leg you're standing on now is: Mo was Arab so he can murder other Arabs, destroy their homes, including the Jews and anyone else around the neighborhood, wreck their temples, smash their heritage, ...

Like I said long ago, with you and DH here's the rule: What ever a Muslim does is fine.
Muslims invade Persia - that's fine, they were threatened. Muslims invade Constantinople - oh, that's fine too, they were "threatened". Muslims invade Spain - oh, that's fine, they were "helping" some people. Mohammad ordered a singing slave girls head to be cut off - oh, that's OK the bitch deserved it -or- it never "really" happened (as if this matters, the story is Islamic). Mohammad refused to enter a city until his thugs pillaged the local temples - oh, that's OK, he's Arab and they had it coming. Mohammad murders Jews - oh, that's ok, they were going to turn on him. Muslims build a temple right atop the most sacred Jewish site - oh, that's ok, the Xians weren't taking care of it :bugeye: and on and on it goes.


Two predictions:
1) "Islamic" countrys continue to stand as shinning testaments for the entire world to see as examples of why theocracy suck.
2) The east become intolerant monotheists, more than likely Xian, and then you can look back on these threads and maybe "get it".



Lastly and back to the opening thread topic.

I'll change this a bit:

We may sum up the social situation in Islamic countries by saying that the Muslims are groping about in the dark and ignorance, entangled in a mesh of superstitions paralyzing their mind and driving them to lead an animal- like life. The women are a marketable commodity and regarded as a piece of inanimate property.

Therefor the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are justified. The elimination of Islam or it's fundamental change by war is warranted. etc.. etc.. etc...

Now how does it sound? Sounding like propaganda yet? I mean Xist, talk about looking in the mirror, I could have never guessed brainwashing by a meme could be so thorough.


Michael
 
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