Enmos
Valued Senior Member
If god exists he exists within the universe.
Any unbrainwashed theists out there?
- Thread starter jayleew
- Start date
If god exists he exists within the universe.
I'm not looking to argue with a theist. Maybe our definition of evidence is different. I was referring to evidence in the undeniable proof form. But if you're referring to the word of God as being evidence, then kudos to you. But many people call the Bible, our evidence, a great work of fiction. So it wasn't too convincing to them, right?
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Are you Christian, Lori?
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Are you Christian, Lori?
The "universe" being a word defined by man. Okay, I'll go with you. God exists within the universe. Anything outside of the big bang is part of the universe. So now how does all of the power that we're convinced He has become moot (irrelevant)? Since God is inside of the universe, is he contained by physics? Is the state of being outside of the big bang, constrained by the physics we've come to know? If you do not know, how then is God irrelevant if you know not whether he is constrained by the physics you've come to know?
You used moot. The OP used moot. Please explain.
Yes, but not because it says I should be in a book. I am because that book became my life in a very real way. And honestly, in a way that scares the shit out of a lot of so called christians.
On the contrary there are many different types of knowledge that call upon many different means to determine validity.
One doesn't necessarily have to start introducing esoteric ideas to illustrate this.
For instance I bet even Dawkins has an authoritative version of who is his mother and father without ever having to call upon measurement (or dis he insist on DNA testing them before he sent them a mothers or fathers day card?)
As things stand at the moment, lots of progress over the past 200 years has been made in the field of empiricism (particularly physics, which has practically redefined all the other sciences).
As the parent/DNA example illustrates, holding empiricism as the monopolizing force for all knowable claims poses philosophical quandaries.
So this is the "new" truth, I take it
The largest percentage of persons who take to religion do so to fulfill need (actually need driven action permeates quite a lot of the population ..... at the very least, there are good reasons why companies spend millions in advertising).
The next large are those in pursuit of some sort of power, wealth or opulence.
The next are those that are curious.
And finally there are those who are philosophically inclined
The earlier categories are not celebrated for being able to produce a consistently capable practitioner. After all, if a person takes to religion to fulfill an insignificant need, what comes of their religious practice when the need is fulfilled?
Now that I think about it. You'd better not refer to the Bible as some book. But God isn't square. He might understand.
"square", that's funny. I actually refer to it as a spiritual tool. And thank you for hearing me.
Yes, I am agnostic, but there must be truth. But, no one in my lifetime is able to perceive it. I am disgusted by "blind" faith because I've had it, and I've seen its ugliness in other people and myself. Coupled with pride and blind faith, a Christian is dangerous to humanity and there is proof in history. Thankfully, today's laws keep it at bay and isolated within the religious community.
Although not as dramatic as the Crusades, years ago the church I spent years in was a victim of blind faith from the pulpit. It's not anything new, it happens all the time. Churches are split because of it. The whole mentality that everyone believes they are correct because they accept it without question is detrimental to the fellowship called for in scripture. I despise blind faith because it is a logical fallacy, tends to sleep with pride, and is therefore dangerous.
On the other side of the coin, some atheists are the same and equally dangerous.
And there is nothing sudden about my position. It has taken nearly 6 years to be deprogrammed, and it is still going.
Belief is peace, and unbelief is peace. The war of the mind to insist that you must believe because scripture says is maddening. God is not certain because it is not proven. I'll give him all the time that I have to reveal itself.
Lies. IF there was a God, I would add those are lies from the devil.
Such a dismal outlook of the world that some believers have....that the only place of rescue, sanctuary, and everything else that is "good" comes from God. It is suffocating of life itself. Once I released myself of this, life became precious and to be treasured. Misinterpreted scripture would have you believe you are a piece of shit and only good with God in you.
Are you trying to tempt me into choosing God to replace the drug on the street?
I need no drug, nor God to be full of joy and love. This is why I said most believers can't live in the state of peace that is past understanding without the belief in God.
I already have peace, a glimpse of truth, and hope. Moreso than I ever had with God.
No, you are not the type of believer I am looking for. You are still brainwashed and unable to question. The best thing you can do is be honest with yourself. That truth will set your mind free.
Why do you require 100% proof to relinquish belief, but very little proof to have complete faith? How is that logical and fair judgement?
You are still buying into this crap from three Sunday's ago? This is overgeneralizing. I don't believe most people deny God because they are afraid. But, the thought is encouraging to believe in God, so they preach this all the time. Unscriptural. This is speculation.
I postulate that most people are not afraid to give up their faults and "sinful" ways. Most people want to improve themselves continually for the betterment of mankind. It is not the denial of God that is cowardice, it is the denial of self-doubt that is. It is very difficult, sometimes deep down difficult to leave the faith. It hurts, it doesn't feel right if you're indoctrinated. You get scared, and grab hold of religion. I've been there as a worship leader in my church. Just for peace and because you are conditioned, you throw doubt out of your mind and explain it away as an attack from evil like a good believer.
It is much braver for a person to say, "Wait, that can't be true" than for him to say "That must be true because other people/things say it is true"
I don't believe anything without evidence. Of course, I'm not much of an atheist.
BUT
You are making the polar opposite argument atheists say of theists.
The same can be said of you. You have no proof of God's existence.
This was my mission about 8 years ago. I wish you luck, and only hope you end up a better person for taking this path as I have.
I wish I could help you, but you have to figure this out yourself.
But, the secret is that you were lied to. Some religious folks and some atheists are dangerous. "Evil" is not an exclusive club.
Everyone has every reason to participate in moral constraint outside of law for the good of all.
There is much beauty in accomplishments and there is no evidence that success without God leads to madness, greed, and damage to society.
These are lies and unscriptural. You can continue judging if you like, that all people without God cannot achieve morality, peace, love, and goodness, but I was really hoping to find theists unlike your current set of beliefs. Those types may be able to talk some sense into me....or rather some goodness or something that leads me to an encounter with God, where I will have evidence.
What do you mean by higher power? There could be beings much more powerful than us yet that wouldn't mean they're gods. There could be beings who can do things people think are impossible & that our current knowledge cannot explain yet that wouldn't mean they're gods.
What do you mean by "to some degree"?
What else could you call it if you wanted to?
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No, there is plenty of evidence theists are deluded.
So terribly sorry to have to inject a bit of reality into your fantasies. We just can't help ourselves.
I mentioned to someone else that I climbed up Mount Olympus and did not see Zeus, his kingdom, or any other gods for that matter. But, I'm sure you're not arrogant or egotistic enough to produce evidence of your gods existence.
Yes well, we'll just ignore the centuries of bloodshed, horror and cruelty your cult has inflicted on the world.
Is it any wonder prisons are full of Christians? Perhaps they ignore the law in favor of their gods commands?
The debate of God's existence is pointless because there is no evidence for all to examine. Some people like Lori have their personal experience, and that is what maybe I will have someday. I'm open to that, but aside from that, there is no empirical evidence to make any conclusion about the matter. So, why debate?
Instead, I'd like to move forward with my undestanding of the truth and I don't care much where I need to learn it. From the pulpit to the streets, everything is evidence that I need to reach the 3rd epiphany I hope for in the future.
Above all, keep moving forward on your journey and don't be stuck in you beliefs because someone always knows more than you.
They all do.
It is also to believe despite the factual evidence. This is the common usage of delusion.
Seriously, back to topic....I am looking for theists to tell their side of the story. Some theists who have agnostic tendencies...appologetic theists even. Specifically, I would like to find post-modern Christians, if they truly exist. I'd like to know their take on God. Perhaps this is the wrong place, but it doesn't hurt to try.