Any atheists here who were once believers?

[Jan Ardena]

Seattle,

We just have to disagree I guess. Adding "due to insufficient evidence" doesn't imply a belief system in any way. "Due to insufficient evidence" is implied even if not stated. Why else would you think something was true?

Maybe not in and of itself, it could be just something you thought up. But the fact is, there is a culture which thinks exactly the same thing, coupled with the fact that you are making a definate claim about something you cannot know.

Faith means there isn't evidence otherwise you wouldn't have to take it on faith. Having a belief in religion (or God) requires faith to derive "truth".

Faith just doesn't mean ''there isn't evidence'', it mean there can be no evidence, and as such some things have to be taken on faith. Also, one doesn't need faith to believe in God, one needs faith to depend upon God, having made a commitment of surrender.

Not believing doesn't require faith. It isn't deriving "truth" either. It's subjective. I don't "know" that there isn't a God. That would require evidence as well. Subjectively I don't think there is a God.

And that subjective thought is dependant on what you think you know about God, so what you have is faith, because there exists no way to know, as a scientific fact whether God exists or not.

Regarding whether I came to these conclusion "in a flash" or not or how....it wasn't by joining some group or reading some "manifesto" as you put it. As a kid my family was religious and so I had to go to church and learn whatever there was to learn.

My belief in God did not come about by joining some group or reading some scripture, and my family isn't religious. I didn't have to go to church as a kid, to learn about God.

What evidence would be sufficient? The same evidence I would require of anything else that I consider to be real. I don't have any evidence that any supernatural concepts are real including God, ghosts, mind reading, etc.

Maybe not, but other people do. How do you know what they experience isn't real?

If God appeared in body form from up in the clouds and said "how's it going?" and made it rain frogs I might start to think "he" was real. It wouldn't take "faith" just as it doesn't take faith to "believe in" the sun. It's just a fact. One doesn't have to strain credulity searching for evidence.

That's your criteria, fine. Other people have a different criteria. Why is yours right and theirs wrong?

Prayer could be answered in a statistically significant way (but it's not). Evidence could be available but it doesn't seem to be.

Same as above.

The "catch" is that people generally say that God is "transcendent" or supernatural and any evidence of course will not be of the natural world (the world of science). Therefore all of the evidence is not evidence in any meaningful sense of that word.

God is defined as transcendent, not that people generally say so (although they might say so). If God wasn't transcendent, He wouldn't be God. To be God, He must be greater than His effect. So to say God doesn't exist because there is no physical evidence (modern scientific method), is making a decision as to what and who God is.

Evidence in that case just becomes whatever you want it to be...some dream you have, some thought, God is in us, he is everywhere, I can see him as surely as I'm looking at you, etc.

This analasys is based on your understanding of God, not on the definition of God.
In essence you have made an inadvertant decision not to believe in God, by limiting the definition of God.

That isn't evidence for unicorns and it isn't evidence for God or anything else.

Now you're just attempting to label the concept of God as childish fantasy, making your position seem credible and justified.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sarkus,

Both. Being in a religious household I heard about Him from as far back as I can recall... then as I grew up and still believed it was despite what I learned, as I figured no smoke without fire.
You do like only taking the bits you want to hear, don't you.

I like getting to the heart of the matter.

So, you figured ''no smoke without fire''?
Can this be desribed as independantly believing God?
Or is it a curiousity. Kind of ''let's see where this goes'' kind of thing?

What I want to know is: Did you just believe in God regardless of religion?

I didn't think that God was not-real, just that some notions put forth by the religion I was indoctrinated in didn't make sense.

I can dig that. But would you agree that you never believed in God despite the indoctrination and the notions put forth by that particular religious group?

And that got the ball rolling in terms of thinking more critically about what I was being asked to belive in. I stripped back the notion of God to just being the original cause, and worked outward from there... and found nothing convincing, and still don't.

Did you see God as a separate idea that you needed to make sense of?

And within that (ongoing) exercise I also questioned whether there was value in even holding on to the belief of the existence of God... would my life be any different without?

But in all of this, I don't see a belief in God. I see someone looking to see if belief in God is beneficial to themself.

So it is possible that people can be religious, even a priest, bishop, or pope, and be in the same situation you were with regard to deciding if God exists, but never actually believing in Him. You decided to become agnostic/atheist, but others may not make that decision and settle with something that they are willing to accept. But it is not belief. There is no question about belief in God for one who believes in God. It's not really a choice, but a worldview.

jan.

 

[Seattle]

Seattle,



Maybe not in and of itself, it could be just something you thought up. But the fact is, there is a culture which thinks exactly the same thing, coupled with the fact that you are making a definate claim about something you cannot know.



Faith just doesn't mean ''there isn't evidence'', it mean there can be no evidence, and as such some things have to be taken on faith. Also, one doesn't need faith to believe in God, one needs faith to depend upon God, having made a commitment of surrender.



And that subjective thought is dependant on what you think you know about God, so what you have is faith, because there exists no way to know, as a scientific fact whether God exists or not.



My belief in God did not come about by joining some group or reading some scripture, and my family isn't religious. I didn't have to go to church as a kid, to learn about God.



Maybe not, but other people do. How do you know what they experience isn't real?



That's your criteria, fine. Other people have a different criteria. Why is yours right and theirs wrong?



Same as above.



God is defined as transcendent, not that people generally say so (although they might say so). If God wasn't transcendent, He wouldn't be God. To be God, He must be greater than His effect. So to say God doesn't exist because there is no physical evidence (modern scientific method), is making a decision as to what and who God is.



This analasys is based on your understanding of God, not on the definition of God.
In essence you have made an inadvertant decision not to believe in God, by limiting the definition of God.



Now you're just attempting to label the concept of God as childish fantasy, making your position seem credible and justified.

jan.

Tell me what you don't believe in and what your decision making process is for that. Why don't you believe in Zeus, Santa, or whatever supernatural "beings" that you don't believe in?

If you apply that same standard to God then God will fail that test.

Why are you so anxious to "surrender" to something that you agree there is and can be no evidence for?

If you believe in the power of prayer there could be an easy test for that. Just set up a double blind test where the test givers and test takers don't know who the control group is and who is actually being prayed for and by whom.

With a statistically large enough group after correcting for randomness you would clearly see whether terminally ill people who are prayed for anonymously are having their prayers answered by God or whether that is just not the case.

The standard of evidence for your point of view is nonexistent. Your "evidence" must be (as you have eliminated everything else) that God came to me and that's it.

If Salma Hayek comes to me in a vision (and she does) does that mean she's God?

 

[wegs]

Tell me what you don't believe in and what your decision making process is for that. Why don't you believe in Zeus, Santa, or whatever supernatural "beings" that you don't believe in?

If you apply that same standard to God then God will fail that test.

Why are you so anxious to "surrender" to something that you agree there is and can be no evidence for?

If you believe in the power of prayer there could be an easy test for that. Just set up a double blind test where the test givers and test takers don't know who the control group is and who is actually being prayed for and by whom.

With a statistically large enough group after correcting for randomness you would clearly see whether terminally ill people who are prayed for anonymously are having their prayers answered by God or whether that is just not the case.

The standard of evidence for your point of view is nonexistent. Your "evidence" must be (as you have eliminated everything else) that God came to me and that's it.

If Salma Hayek comes to me in a vision (and she does) does that mean she's God?

Ah....she would be a goddess.

 

[Bells]

Ah....she would be a goddess.

It's fair to say that the words 'Oh God!' would be uttered if Colin Firth from Pride and Prejudice came to me in a vision...

The man is Godly.

 

[Seattle]

Ah....she would be a goddess.

I never said I didn't believe in a Goddess. I have sufficient evidence for that

 

[Bells]

He? OK. Look, you can't deny that you are doing your best to shun me.

This surprises you?

She's asked you to let it go. Several times now.

And you are not letting it go.

Do I deserve it?

Is this a rhetorical question?

You're going to have Peace soon as I'm traveling.

How about you give her peace now and stop carrying on as if she has to fulfill her part of what you believe is a prophecy and how about you back off and stop getting angry that she is an atheist and didn't tell you. That would be a start.

I'd still like to know why an atheist asked for a prayer request?

So?

Why are you so offended that she is now an atheist? She isn't offended by her choices, why are you?

I'd still like to know why an atheist would post links to Christian songs and got upset when I didn't like them?

I'm an atheist and I like some Christmas carols, doesn't mean I believe them. I just like the tunes for themselves.:shrug:

 

[Magical Realist]

It's fair to say that the words 'Oh God!' would be uttered if Colin Firth from Pride and Prejudice came to me in a vision...

The man is Godly.

Per your request (horse not included)...

 

[Mazulu]

Do atheists celebrate Christmas?

 

[Bells]

Per your request (horse not included)...

But he has clothes on!

 

[Billy T]

... People who say that they know that God doesn't exist are indeed lying. People who know that God does exist are called, the faithful.

Since there is no evidence either way, how can one POV be known to held by liars but the other is not?

 

[Balerion]

Because Jan forgot to address my last post to him, here it is again.

In other words, you can't list any non-Christian sources. Which means your sole source for information--or at least the information you actually believe--is from cranks. Not legitimate scientists, not textbooks or published articles, but from debunking websites.

Poor showing, Jan.



The concept is quite easy to understand. The actual mechanics of it require some education. Would you disagree with the workings of an internal combustion engine without knowing how one works?



Oh, I see. So you're one of the cranks who believes there's a difference between "micro" and "macro," then?

On what basis do you reject "macro" evolution?



I have no idea what that means, Jan. Is this an attempt to excuse your ignorance of evolution?



In what way, specifically, does it contradict observation?



Atheist worldview? Good grief, Jan. Charles Darwin wasn't an atheist, Jan. His theory is based on observations--naked-eye observations, and logic.



How could a scientifically-invalid and philosophically-weak theory give character and strength to an ideology?



More cowardice. What a surprise!

 

[Mazulu]

Since there is no evidence either way, how can one POV be known to held by liars but the other is not?

It's totally logical. Believers don't need proof, that's why they're called believers; they have FAITH that God exists. But nobody, including Richard Dawkins, knows for sure either way.

 

[Billy T]

...my family isn't religious. I didn't have to go to church as a kid, to learn about God....

Interesting.
What did you learn about god?

Second question: Does any of it contradict what some other believe - say that there is no "heaven" or "hell" only endless cycles of life (Your status in next re-incarnation depends upon how good / proper / life you lived in the current life?

Third question: Does what you learned about god completely agree with any of the teaching of one religious group?

Fourth question: By what process did you lean about god?

 

[Magical Realist]

But he has clothes on!

Seek and ye shall find!

 

[Balerion]

But he has clothes on!

Yeah, but the man sure knows how to wear pantaloons, no?

 

[wegs]

It's fair to say that the words 'Oh God!' would be uttered if Colin Firth from Pride and Prejudice came to me in a vision...

The man is Godly.

Oh!

I never said I didn't believe in a Goddess. I have sufficient evidence for that

See? Like I said. We all have faith in....something.

Per your request (horse not included)...

Oh my! (not the horse)

<<< wonders if there are tats under there

Do atheists celebrate Christmas?

My bf said that his family celebrates so they do a gift exchange.
Of my friends who are atheists, they also exchange gifts ...it's just not a religious or spiritual experience.
The origin of Christmas was that it was a pagan holiday and Christians attached Jesus' birthday to it for a few reasons..,if you google it, it's interesting.
I will admit. This year will be the first holiday season that I'm leaving behind old Christian traditions. It's going to be a little different.

But he has clothes on!

Lol Bells, you are a very cool chick. Just sayin.

Because Jan forgot to address my last post to him, here it is again.

Lol...well, in my observations, Jan typically replies respectfully so maybe he just missed your post.

 

[wegs]

Earlier, I asked Jan how does he know God is real and he answered "common sense."
So, how do you know God is real, Mazulu? Like what causes you to believe in the truth of God? (or a god)

I'm genuinely interested to know how people come to believe what they believe.

 

[Balerion]

Do atheists celebrate Christmas?

Many do, yes. Christmas is no longer just a religious holiday, but a secular one. In fact, at least in the west, it's primarily a secular holiday.

 

[Mazulu]

Earlier, I asked Jan how does he know God is real and he answered "common sense."
So, how do you know God is real, Mazulu? Like what causes you to believe in the truth of God? (or a god)

I'm genuinely interested to know how people come to believe what they believe.

wegs,
I have had many spiritual and metaphysical experiences with God. But believing in God, believing in a Higher Power is still an act of faith. If being an atheist makes your life better and happier, than you have a right to live that way.

But when some of these wicked rotten people go overboard with their atheism, people like Richard Dawkins, and try to trick other people into thinking that God does not or cannot exist, I will be waiting for them.