Another poll on attitudes to rape

[James R]

A quick poll to gauge the reactions of sciforumers to the list that was posted in the thread

[thread=82693]So you think you aren't a rapist?[/thread]

Please mark all the statements with which you disagree.

 

[Asguard]

james as i have said 100 times over, the law says that all these except POSSABLY the second one are rape (though it doesnt discriminate between forceful sex and simply conentual sex when both are drunk which would mean either BOTH are charged or nither are)

The problem with that list is its gender specific, the law isnt. Every single one of those is a crime if a man is the victom just as much as if the women is

 

[Asguard]

this is quite unfortunate that i cant find any statistics from a site i wouldnt feel like an ass for putting my name to but so far i have found this

Dad's in distress

21 November 2007
Men's Health Australia
Media Release

Do we ignore violence against men?

This Sunday is White Ribbon Day (WRD) and the start of the 16 Days of Activism to Stop Violence Against Women. However the 2005 Personal Safety Australia survey found that in the past 12 months almost twice as many men as women (808,300) were victims of all types of violence; twice as many men as women (485,400) were victims of physical assault; nearly a third of sexual assault victims were men; 864,300 men were harassed and 110,700 men were stalked. The same study found that men were almost as likely as women to experience physical violence within the home (half from females, half from males) and were just as likely as women to experience physical violence from perpetrators who were known to them. Yet the WRD campaign focuses solely on the prevention of violence against women by men.

.
.
.

Viewed 06/07/08 at 18:20

Very little in known about the actual number of men who are in a domestic relationship in which they are abused or treated violently by women. In 100 domestic violence situations approximately 40 cases involve violence by women against men. An estimated 400,000 women per year are abused or treated violently in the United States by their spouse or intimate partner. This means that roughly 300,000 to 400,000 men are treated violently by their wife or girl friend.

.
.
.
Why Does Domestic Abuse Against Men Go Unrecognized?

Domestic violence against men goes unrecognized for the following reasons:

• The incidence of domestic violence against men appears to be so low that it is hard to get reliable estimates.
  
• It has taken years of advocacy and support to encourage women to report domestic violence. Virtually nothing has been done to encourage men to report abuse.
  
• The idea that men could be victims of domestic abuse and violence is so unthinkable to most people that many men will not even attempt to report the situation.
  
• The counseling and psychological community have responded to domestic abuse and violence against women. Not enough has been done to stop abuse against women. There has been very little investment in resources to address the issues of domestic abuse and violence against men.
  
• In most cases, the actual physical damage inflicted by men is so much greater than the actual physical harm inflected by women. The impact of domestic violence is less apparent and less likely to come to the attention of others.
  
• Even when men do report domestic abuse and violence, most people are so astonished, men usually end up feeling like nobody would believe them. It is widely assumed than a man with a bruise or black eye was in a fight with another man or was injured on the job or while playing contact sports. Women generally don't do those things.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Are The Characteristics Of Women Who Are Abusive And Violent?

The characteristics of men or women who are abusive fall into three categories.

Alcohol Abuse. Alcohol abuse is a major cause and trigger in domestic violence. People who are intoxicated have less impulse control, are easily frustrated, have greater misunderstandings and are generally prone to resort to violence as a solution to problems. Women who abuse men are frequently alcoholics.

Psychological Disorders. There are certain psychological problems, primarily personality disorders, in which women are characteristically abusive and violent toward men. Borderline personality disorder is a diagnosis that is found almost exclusively with women. Approximately 1 to 2 percent of all women have a Borderline Personality disorder. At least 50% of all domestic abuse and violence against men is associated with woman who have a Borderline Personality disorder. The disorder is also associated with suicidal behavior, severe mood swings, lying, sexual problems and alcohol abuse.

Unrealistic expectations, assumptions and conclusions. Women who are abusive toward men usually have unrealistic expectations and make unrealistic demands of men. These women will typically experience repeated episodes of depression, anxiety, frustration and irritability which they attribute to a man's behavior. In fact, their mental and emotional state is the result of their own insecurities, emotional problems, trauma during childhood or even withdrawal from alcohol. They blame men rather than admit their problems, take responsibility for how they live their lives or do something about how they make themselves miserable. They refuse to enter treatment and may even insist the man needs treatment. Instead of helping themselves, they blame a man for how they feel and believe that a man should do something to make them feel better. They will often medicate their emotions with alcohol. When men can't make them feel better, these women become frustrated and assume that men are doing this on purpose.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Viewed 06/07/08 at 18:24

virtual medical center.com

Who gets Domestic Violence?

In 2000, the National Violence Against Women Survey (US) reported, in a study of 8000 women and 8000 men, that nearly 25% of women and 7.9% of men indicated that a current or former spouse, cohabitating partner, or date victimized them at some time in their life. Rape was reported by 7.7% of women and 0.3% of men. Physical assault affected 22.1% of women and 7.4% of men. Within the previous 12 months, 0.2% of women reported having been raped, which would equate nationally to 201,394 women. Physical assault was reported by 1.3% of women and 0.9% of men, resulting in national estimates of 1,309,061 women and 834,732 men so victimized. Victimization often occurs repeatedly.

Data from the survey revealed that women averaged 6.9 physical assaults by the same partner, with men averaging 4.4 assaults. Given the data on multiple attacks per victim, it is estimated that every year approximately 4.8 million intimate partner rapes and physical assaults are perpetrated against women, and approximately 2.9 million are committed against men. Almost 5% of women and 0.6% of men in the survey indicated that an intimate had stalked them, with an annual rate of 0.5% of surveyed women and 0.2% of surveyed men. Extrapolation from these data indicates that 503,485 women and 185,496 men were stalked by an intimate partner within the previous 12 months. High-profile news may affect willingness to report domestic violence. Following the Simpson and Goldman murders, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department noted a significant increase in domestic violence dispatches. Estimates indicate that at least 2 million women are assaulted by their partners each year. The true incidence may be twice that. Exact figures for males are hard to come by.

Viewed 06/07/08 at 18:32

I dont know what the exact break down is and i doubt anyone does but it DOES happen and what makes it worse is the victimisation is even worse when the victom is a male because of atitudes like those displayed currently by every goverment. The reason i havent been able to use goverment sources for this is because not one of the states, teritories OR the federal goverment are even bothering to releace them

 

[angrybellsprout]

james as i have said 100 times over, the law says that all these except POSSABLY the second one are rape (though it doesnt discriminate between forceful sex and simply conentual sex when both are drunk which would mean either BOTH are charged or nither are)

The problem with that list is its gender specific, the law isnt. Every single one of those is a crime if a man is the victom just as much as if the women is

So you believe that when someone gives implicit and explicit consent to sex, it is rape if they had just happened to have a few drinks beforehand?

 

[Asguard]

YES it is rape.

 

[redarmy11]

You are a rapist if you get a girl drunk and have sex with her.

wtf? There appears to be some information missing from that one. Like, for instance, this:

If she is incapacitated in any way and unable to say 'Yes' then you're a rapist.

The first fails to specify exactly how drunk. So no, I couldn't possibly agree with that.

If you say, "If you loved me you’d do X" then you're a rapist.

Bit vague? The proposition doesn't even mention sex.

If you threaten her, or act in a way that SHE thinks you're threatening her then you're a rapist.

No, you've made threats. We're being left to assume an awful lot here.

If you choose to remain friends with a man who raped a woman you are encouraging rape.

Not necessarily. You could try to make him see - sorry this sounds so pathetic - the error of his ways. If he's still unrepentant then, yes, I agree. Otherwise, no.

Stopped beating your wife yet, Asguard?

 

[angrybellsprout]

It doesn't matter because if she gives consent it is rape and if she doesn't give consent it is rape. Thus we are back to the feminist claims that all heterosexual sex is rape, and that all men are rapists.

 

[redarmy11]

Er... no.

 

[angrybellsprout]

We aren't?

I asked about when someone gives both implicit and explicit consent, but had a couple drinks. The answer was that it is rape when both forms of consent are given.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1919587&postcount=5

 

[Asguard]

ABS are you getting so little that you need to pick up drunk women because no one else would go near you?

I dont blame them

 

[angrybellsprout]

Considering the fact that I've stated quite a few times in the past that I'm not going to have sex before I'm married, that's a pretty silly question.

I just think that it is pretty silly of you to pretend that anytime someone has a few drinks and then says that they would like to have sex and actively participates in the sex acts that it is rape. Though I'm sure that you are now going to tell us that you have never had a few drinks and gotten a little frisky before.

 

[Asguard]

only with PB who i know doesnt care if i fuck her because i do it on a regular basis

 

[angrybellsprout]

And that suddenly doesn't make it rape?

 

[Asguard]

as i already stated, in order to prove a rape under the influance with a regular partner you would have to prove that something was different in that sexual contact than normal. For instance if you didnt use a condom when you know she expects you to. Other wise you would be pritty saft with a yes from your regular partner

 

[Bells]

Considering the fact that I've stated quite a few times in the past that I'm not going to have sex before I'm married, that's a pretty silly question.

I just think that it is pretty silly of you to pretend that anytime someone has a few drinks and then says that they would like to have sex and actively participates in the sex acts that it is rape. Though I'm sure that you are now going to tell us that you have never had a few drinks and gotten a little frisky before.

There is one thing you just don't seem to understand. If a person is so incapacitated (ie. so drunk that they can't walk, talk, understand, etc), then they are in no position to understand or comprehend or able to consent to sex. This isn't about someone having a few drinks and getting frisky. It's about someone who is blind drunk and unable to consent to anything whatsoever, be it sex or selling their house or car (for example).

Sex does not equal rape. You seem to have this obsession that sex = rape. That is not the case. If someone is unable to consent to sex and you have sex with them, then it equals rape. If you have sex with a 5 year old child or a person in a coma, it is rape. Why? Because they are unable to consent. The same applies with someone who is flat out drunk and in no state to consent to anything.

For example, say you go out on a date with a girl or a boy. You ply them with alcohol and/or drugs (or spike their drink) so that they become so incapacitated that they can't even remember their own name (again, pure example) and end up in a near comatose state. You then take that individual home, take their clothes off as they lay there half conscious or passed out cold and you have sex with them. That is rape. It doesn't matter if the victim is a male or female or if the rapist is male or female. It is still rape. Do you know why? Because the individual was so incapacitated, that she/he was in no state to consent.

Do you get it now?

 

[angrybellsprout]

Are you illiterate, or do you just enjoy tossing around tons of strawmen?

I specifically talk about individuals who give verbal consent and remain active and participatory during the acts, and you respond to talking about someone who is unconcious.

Why can't you simply respond to the scenario described intstead of constantly using the strawman of a comatose person?

 

[angrybellsprout]

So you believe that when someone gives implicit and explicit consent to sex, it is rape if they had just happened to have a few drinks beforehand?

It doesn't matter because if she gives consent it is rape and if she doesn't give consent it is rape. Thus we are back to the feminist claims that all heterosexual sex is rape, and that all men are rapists.

We aren't?

I asked about when someone gives both implicit and explicit consent, but had a couple drinks. The answer was that it is rape when both forms of consent are given.
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1919587&postcount=5

Considering the fact that I've stated quite a few times in the past that I'm not going to have sex before I'm married, that's a pretty silly question.

I just think that it is pretty silly of you to pretend that anytime someone has a few drinks and then says that they would like to have sex and actively participates in the sex acts that it is rape. Though I'm sure that you are now going to tell us that you have never had a few drinks and gotten a little frisky before.

Funny that I mention 4 times in the thread a specific scenario, yet you illiterate fucks only talk about people who are unconcious.

Why?

 

[Bells]

Are you illiterate, or do you just enjoy tossing around tons of strawmen?

I specifically talk about individuals who give verbal consent and remain active and participatory during the acts, and you respond to talking about someone who is unconcious.

Why can't you simply respond to the scenario described intstead of constantly using the strawman of a comatose person?

Because the individual would have to be so drunk that they are unable to consent. For some, it could take a few drinks. For others, it can take 3 bottles of tequila.

So if the individual is blind drunk, says "yeah sure", gets turned on during the act and participates, has an orgasm, but during that time is so drunk they can't even remember their own name or where they are.. yeah.. it's rape. Do you know why? Because they are so drunk that they can't understand what's going on. They don't have to be unconscious. But they are so drunk that they have the mental capacity of a 5 year old.

For example, say you tell a 5 year old you'll give them a lolly if they let you have sex with them. 5 year old says "yeah ok". Now imagine if someone is so drunk that they don't know who or where they are but they say "yeah ok", gets turned on... I'll give you a hint. Both = to rape. Why? Because both are in no position consent. The victim may say yes and appear to give consent. They may participate in the act. But if they are so drunk that they don't understand where they are, let alone consent to anything, regardless of that "yeah ok" or participation, it can still be classified as being rape. Because the individual was in no position to give consent.

Is it really that hard for you to understand?

 

[cosmictraveler]

why is it that you are so interested in what other think about rape? Do you have a "hidden" side that really is your "dark side" ?

 

[Randwolf]

So if the individual is blind drunk, says "yeah sure", gets turned on during the act and participates, has an orgasm, but during that time is so drunk they can't even remember their own name or where they are.. yeah.. it's rape.

...

Is it really that hard for you to understand?

What's hard for me to understand, is who judges these things? Who decides if someone is too inebriated to be of sound judgement? The examples of someone who is comatose are obvious. However, on a related thread it was pointed out that the actual law of the land has changed, and it is no longer necessary to prove force as an element of rape. In fact, quite the contrary. I think this is what ABS is going on about. Can a person, male or female, decide retroactively, as in the next morning, "Oh, I was drunk last night, so even though I said please fuck me, I was actually incapacitated, so, therefore, you will be spending the next 20 years in prison." Is this right? It may be a hypothetical question right now. but you can bet it will be tested in reality soon. We already had cases of people inaccurately labeled guillty of rape, this would seem to only open the door further for this sort of false accusation.