!! an atheist knows what's gonna happen to him after death!!

[Cris]

scifes,

anything sophisticated in our world is created by someone.

Really? Name something that was created, say by man, that didn't involve an evolutionary process as an essential component. How about the modern day computer, probably the most sophisticated and complex item that the planet has seen, well perhaps outside of the human brain. So who "created" the modern computer and on what day did it occur?

 

[Norsefire]

scifes,

Really? Name something that was created, say by man, that didn't involve an evolutionary process as an essential component. How about the modern day computer, probably the most sophisticated and complex item that the planet has seen, well perhaps outside of the human brain. So who "created" the modern computer and on what day did it occur?

Right, you're very much correct; even intelligence arises from simpler processes and mechanisms through a process of evolution.

However, what is your point? This "god", then, could be an intelligence that evolved like Humans evolved.

 

[Lori_7]

Empirical, derived from and proven by experience.

Do you know what the atheist cop out is?

Religion.

Such an easy target for a bunch of masterminds.

Its a shame.

 

[Cris]

Norefire,

However, what is your point? This "god", then, could be an intelligence that evolved like Humans evolved.

Creationists posit an intelligent creator over evolution. The case rests on the observation that the complexity we have developed came from our inteligence, but there is no case where intelligence outside of an evolutionary process exists. I.e. there is no jusfication to claim that intelligence is the primary cause of complexity.

Scifes quotes nature as being very complex and hence needed an intelligence to create it. But the only intelligence we know is ours and we can't create anything except through long periods of trial and error and adaptation. I.e. an evolutionary process.

If a god has evolved to where it can truly create something new and complex instantly and that explains us and nature then that begs the question of why suggest there is a god. IOW if intelligence arises from evolution then something that can create isn't necessary to explain anything. I.e. a god is a redundant concept.

 

[Norsefire]

Norefire,

Creationists posit an intelligent creator over evolution. The case rests on the observation that the complexity we have developed came from our inteligence, but there is no case where intelligence outside of an evolutionary process exists. I.e. there is no jusfication to claim that intelligence is the primary cause of complexity.

I agree.

Scifes quotes nature as being very complex and hence needed an intelligence to create it. But the only intelligence we know is ours and we can't create anything except through long periods of trial and error and adaptation. I.e. an evolutionary process.

Right. I agree also, but here's my point:

You say the only intelligence we know of is ours: correct. However, the fact that our intelligence exists is proof that intelligence can exist. Furthermore, given the scope of the observable universe, we can speculate on the potential existence of other intelligent entities.

This is, of course, only speculation, but it is not unfounded.

The universe is complex and functions in certain ways; we know intelligence can exist, and we know intelligence can give rise to complexity. Therefore is it really an absurd idea that some form of intelligence deliberately caused/influenced our own universe? If there are multiple universes, then an intelligence that evolved could have then created our own universe.

Left to this idea alone, I find that it is a very real possibility, and of course it's just speculation. All I propose is this core idea; it's impossible to know what this intelligence looks like, behaves like, is able to do, etc, etc

If a god has evolved to where it can truly create something new and complex instantly and that explains us and nature then that begs the question of why suggest there is a god. IOW if intelligence arises from evolution then something that can create isn't necessary to explain anything. I.e. a god is a redundant concept.

I never said that this "god" could create something complex instantly or that it could create itself! If this god(s) is anything like us, as they evolved there was trial and error until they had enough control and understanding over their physics to be able to create a universe, for whatever reason.

Is creating a universe possible?

 

[Cris]

scifes,

empirically, there is no difference between the sane and insane.

They behave differently under certain conditions. That's an empirical observation. Your point is disproven on that alone.

I challenge you to state some entity that is not material. Note that this is a very old question put to many such as you and none have presented a cogent answer. You need to be aware that there are many abstract concepts which we say exist, like justice, or love, but these do not clasify as entities. You will need to demonstrate something that exists outside of human abstract concepts and point to something independent that is not of a material nature.

Good luck.

 

[Cris]

norsefire,

In several posts I made here years ago I suggested that perhaps humans eventually evolved with incredible intelligence, met other alien intelligent species, and eventually they all merged together into one huge single intelligence that further grew to where it understood absolutely everything and was even able to see all of time. At which point it became so bored that it said let's destroy everything and start again. At which point they/it ceased to exist and there was an enormous explosion and the universe started again.

 

[Norsefire]

What do you mean by that?

Look at the path humans are taking; steps toward immortality; steps toward a better ability to harness energy. And most importantly, steps toward achieving a state of posthumanity.

In the future, we will learn more, and most importantly, we will be able to harness more energy and we will have a better understanding of physics; at this point, we might learn how to create another universe. For instance, if our own universe was dying.

This is the scenario a god outside of our universe would fall into. It's nothing more than speculation, but considering we have no clue what caused the universe, I consider it a very real possibility - that intelligence [outside of our universe] influenced or caused our universe

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

-=-

And some intelligence caused their universe. And some intelligence caused their universe. And some intelligence caused their universe ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...