An all loving God?

[heart]

Originally posted by spoilsport
I would definitely agree. However, when I read the Bible I don't see contradictions so much as I see misinterpretations etc. People seem to have a knack for taking things out of context.

Okay, I can understand how that can happen. However, there are many many obvious contradictions in the bible. I'll give you 3 simple examples.

What were the last words Jesus spoke according to Matthew, Luke, and John?

Matt: 27:46
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John 19:30
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

---------------------------------
What did Jesus do after being baptized?

Mark 1:12,13
"And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan."

John 1:35, 43; 2:1
"Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples. The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee."

So either he was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days by Satan or he and his disciples attended a wedding :bugeye:

---------------------------------
Is all scripture inspired by God?

2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

1 Cor.7:12.:
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord."
1 Cor.7:25
"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment...."

My point is there are contradictions- whether the Bible was inspired totally by God or not- it was handwritten by men- and according to 1 Cor 7:25 -they did give their opinion. With that in mind ..The Bible was written in greek and hebrew, a language that is not ours...it couldn't have been translated 100% correctly...on top of that...those that did translate it for our reading had the ability to interject their own beliefs.

 

[heart]

okinrus,

If you believe the bible contains contradictions, then I'm to assume you don't believe the Bible is completely accurate? What is it that makes you believe some scriptures and not others?

 

[okinrus]

Well all of the twelve apostles except for John were not present at Jesus' death, so some variance in the words Jesus said may be expected. Really the main witnesses to his death would be Mary magdaline, the Virgin Mary, John, and there the one who pierced Jesus to see if he was dead supposively became a christian.

I don't think that Jesus remained silent up on the cross. He probably said much more to the crowd than was recorded in the bible. However some possible ordering of speech could be that Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" and then "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." and then with is last breath, "it is finished."

 

[okinrus]

If you believe the bible contains contradictions, then I'm to assume you don't believe the Bible is completely accurate? What is it that makes you believe some scriptures and not others?

If you read any historical book there will be errors and inaccuracies. Parts of the bible such as Kings, Chronicles etc. are clearly writings that chronicle the history of the Jewish nation. The work of many kings and prophets, however some of the numbers are clearly estimates. The writings in the bible were not so much to give a physical narrative of events but to be didactic. So for example, the passage in John may have juxtaposed the days to give a more personal narrative, with the theme of the three signs entwined through out the book.

 

[heart]

okinrus,

Maybe ..maybe not. So you think they chose what they thought was important and wrote that down (leaving out what could have been important to someone else-oh but what if they misunderstood what was said)- then of course adding their own opinion to it and...

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by heart
Jenyar,




To me this story doesn't illustrate mercy, love, or patience of a "heavenly" father. I'd like to quote Peter (the apostle in the story above) in Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons" If God isn't a respecter of persons, how come others did not receive the same penalty as Ananias and Sapphira? The mind blowing part to me is that Peter is the very same apostle which DENIED-aka lied, knowing Jesus 3 times. Yet, Peter didn't find the same fate as Ananias and Sapphira. Things that make me go hum.

I understand you are saying that there are spiritual laws and those who do not follow them will suffer the consequences. What my point is, according to the Bible, God is the designer of these spiritual laws.

What loving parent would say, Johnny you messed up son, you disobeyed me and because of this you will be tortured for eternity. That's right, tortured and you will wish for death, but you will not die. You will be sent to a place that was created for demons- but, hey, please don't hold it against me. I warned you Johnny, therefore you sent yourself to this place, I cannot be blamed. Just know it wasn't my desire for you to end up here, even though I did create it.

Why create a hell in the first place? I wonder how many have chosen a life of christianity all because they were scared half to death of hell. All I see is a ruler who uses fear to control others and that is sad.

One part about Acts you must understand is that a bunch of stuff that happens in it happens only that once and is not meant to be taken as if it happens all the time. For instance, I have not been given the gift of tongues it talks about, but I am still a CHRISTIAN (medicine woman knows why I capitalize that).
As for Peter not getting the same treatment. First off Peter hadn't fufilled God's purposes just yet. God knew ahead of time that Peter had great and mighty things ahead of him. Now this doesn't mean that Ananias and Sapphira are in Hell; it was just a symbol by God.
Also, if God didn't send people to Hell, then there would be no incentive to do what is right on Earth. Those who did do good would do it in vain. Thats not just.

 

[okinrus]

They got the main point of what Jesus did and the Spirit would reveal what was truely important and what wasn't. Did they write everything that Jesus ever told them? No of course not. John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." Since John was a disciple of Jesus and chosen by him, he would of course know what was important. We also have extra bibical writings from Ignatius and Polycarp, both disciples of John, that give clues as to what is emphasized.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by heart
There are so many stories in the Bible that seem disturbing to me. For example, The flood- where God only finds one man/family worthy of saving. Which means, outside of Noah and his family, every man, woman, child, and baby were destroyed. (I'm still wondering how the world was repopulated)

Another example that is disturbing to me is the story of Job. Why did God find it necessary to strike a deal with Satan, allowing Satan to basically torture Job in every fashion? There was one exception Satan could not kill Job. Oh, wait, I remember- the reason behind this was to see if Job would stay faithful and not curse God. But, why? Was this some sort of twisted ego trip for God?

Then, there is the whole, "if you don't believe in Jesus and accept him as your lord and savior, you will perish". Not to mention, those who continually sin and not ask for forgiveness, they too shall be doomed.

The sinners will be tortured for all eternity in hell. What is disturbing to me, is that God is suppose to be an all loving God. The Bible states that God is our "heavenly father". I'm sorry, but if any earthly father would torment his child/children just because they simply didn't follow orders - he would surely be locked in jail for child abuse. Yet, I hear the Christians justifying this by saying, "Well, he's god, he has a right" yadda yadda.

I just find it very odd that others buy this. Am I the only one feels this way? I would also like to hear the thoughts of Christians regarding this topic.

Noah had his wives and his sons had wives so they could repopulate the Earth. As for Job, there's a parable Jesus told. "The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against the house. But because its foundation was on the rock, the house did not fall." God puts people to test, even though he knows how they will fare. If they are steadfast and reamain loyal to God, then great will be their reward in heaven. Job didn't curse God, and not only did he get a mighty reward in heaven (for you nitpickers, I can't prove this, but I am sure of it)but he also got earthly treasures, for which gave glory to God

As I said before, God wouldn't be a fair and just God if he didn't ultimately reward the faithful(if we repent of our sins, then He is faithful and just and will forgive us of our sins) and ultimately punish the wicked. That is the right thing to do is it not?

You said that you wanted some Christian thought on this. I don't know everything, but I will give you the answers as best I can.

Also, this is a rather lengthy thread, so I'll try to deal with as many different questions as I can. Thus, expect many posts instead of one rather than a lengthy one.

 

[heart]

Originally posted by jcarl
Now this doesn't mean that Ananias and Sapphira are in Hell; it was just a symbol by God.

You mean God killed them to make example?

Also, if God didn't send people to Hell, then there would be no incentive to do what is right on Earth. Those who did do good would do it in vain. Thats not just.

Meaning God threatens hell so people will follow him? Leads me to wonder if their intentions are sincere. For example, if a bully at school threatened to beat up a classmate if he didn't do what he wanted- the scared classmate would only comply because he didn't want to be hurt..not because he truly wanted to act on bullies wishes.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by Zero
The concept of "eternal" damnation alone just completely destroys the credibility of any religion. Anything "eternal" no matter what the heck you do only represents a god stricken by teen angst and the typical "rage" teens feel at being powerless.

LOL the xan god is a prepubescent boy. His voice prolly cracks like one, too.

Ha ha youre hilarious. Eternal damnation is a symbol of what the punishment for rejecting God is. If you turn away from God and deny his power--as many on this site have done or do--you will forever be in torment. That might be harsh, but, if you think about it, the reward for accepting Jesus Christ is eternal life with God in pleasure; shouldn't the punishment be the exact opposite, eternal life without God in pain? Isn't that fair?
And how exactly does the concpt of damnation completely destroy the credibility of a faith

 

[heart]

Originally posted by okinrus
They got the main point of what Jesus did and the Spirit would reveal what was truely important and what wasn't. Did they write everything that Jesus ever told them? No of course not. John 21:25 "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written." Since John was a disciple of Jesus and chosen by him, he would of course know what was important. We also have extra bibical writings from Ignatius and Polycarp, both disciples of John, that give clues as to what is emphasized.

Wait where does it say that physical narrative events can contain error, yet the meat of the teaching will not?

 

[okinrus]

No, Jesus nor the Father does not know how they will fare all the time. God will allow a house made of straw to be blown down in order to be built by stone. Or in some cases, someone who is prideful will be made to fail in order to humble himself.

Deuteronomy 13:3 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer who promises you a sign or wonder, urging you to follow other gods, whom you have not known, and to serve them: even through the sign or wonder he has foretold you comes to pass, pay no attention to the words of that prophet or that dreamer; for the LORD, your God, is testing you to learn whether you really love him with all your heart and with all your soul." So how can a God who knows the result "learn"?

 

[jcarl]

You mean God killed them to make example?

Um... yeah. Keep in mind I don't believe that they were sent to Hell.

Meaning God threatens hell so people will follow him? Leads me to wonder if their intentions are sincere. For example, if a bully at school threatened to beat up a classmate if he didn't do what he wanted- the scared classmate would only comply because he didn't want to be hurt..not because he truly wanted to act on bullies wishes. [/QUOTE]

It's a double-eged sword actually. I do what is right on Earth because I want the splendor of heaven, but I also do it because I don't want to go to Hell. Selfish? To some it might be, but you can read some ulterior motive into any good work.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by heart
Wait where does it say that physical narrative events can contain error, yet the meat of the teaching will not?

It doesn't say the narrative events contain error because they are flawless. If you believe that there is an error please show me.

 

[okinrus]

Wait where does it say that physical narrative events can contain error, yet the meat of the teaching will not?

The book of Chronicles quotes from a Jewish book that has since been lost. Scribes and others have made small numerical mistakes. As to personal narriatives, one of the books of Maccabee's has note from the author that he has tried to accurately portray the events to the best of his abilities.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by okinrus
No, Jesus nor the Father does not know how they will fare all the time.

If Jesus and/or God don't know how they will fare all the time, then that means that they are not Omniscient, which is what I thought God was all about.

 

[heart]

Originally posted by jcarl
If you believe that there is an error please show me.

If you will scroll all the way up to the top I list some contradictions

 

[okinrus]

If Jesus and/or God don't know how they will fare all the time, then that means that they are not Omniscient, which is what I thought God was all about.

This is not such a big deal for me. I don't interpret all-knowing to mean knowing the future, but just knowing every action and choice that we do. I believe this was the original intent of the hebrew authors, but somehow knowing the future got mixed together by the Greeks. The book of Sirach uses the term all-seeing etc. while at the same time God has clearly given us freewill. God also might know the result of every choice, but he does know if we will choose to do evil or not. And God still has divine providence, is all-powerful and is outside of time.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by heart
Okay, I can understand how that can happen. However, there are many many obvious contradictions in the bible. I'll give you 3 simple examples.

What were the last words Jesus spoke according to Matthew, Luke, and John?

Matt: 27:46
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John 19:30
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

---------------------------------
What did Jesus do after being baptized?

Mark 1:12,13
"And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan."

John 1:35, 43; 2:1
"Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples. The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee."

So either he was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days by Satan or he and his disciples attended a wedding :bugeye:

What you have here on the surface appears to be some contradictions, but you must keep in mind that, the Gospel were written from different perspectives. Some may not have heard or not recorded what the exact same stuff that the other said. Think about it like this: at a lecture, two independent people don't write down all the same notes. One might think one thing is important while the other thinks something else takes precedence. That's my explanation for the crucifiction contradiction.

After the baptism, in Mark it says,"at once the spirit sent him out into the desert." There might have been an interval of time between the two occurences that Mark, for some reason, didn't record.

---------------------------------
Is all scripture inspired by God?

2 Timothy 3:16
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God...."

1 Cor.7:12.:
"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord."

In 1 Cor. Paul gives his opinion, but I can guarantee you that it was influenced just a tad by the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor.7:25
"Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment...."
He's saying that he's going to give you a recomendation inspired by the Lord since ,"I...as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy." God trusts him to give recomendations

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by okinrus
This is not such a big deal for me. I don't interpret all-knowing to mean knowing the future, but just knowing every action and choice that we do. I believe this was the original intent of the hebrew authors, but somehow knowing the future got mixed together by the Greeks. The book of Sirach uses the term all-seeing etc. while at the same time God has clearly given us freewill. God also might know the result of every choice, but he does know if we will choose to do evil or not. And God still has divine providence, is all-powerful and is outside of time.

I believe that he knows literally everything--past, present, and future--and has even chosen who is to be saved. Allow me to explain. It has already been determined that certain people are to be saved. What means is that they will be the ones who will hear the word and accept it as truth. This is known as the divine election. To put it in a nonreligious term, it is fate.
He has given us freewill but knows how we'll use it. Plus if he knows the result of our choices, then wouldn't that by the same token he know whether we choose good or evil?
But this is a trivial matter that determines not salvation.