AIDS denial is immoral

MetaKron said:
They are deceived, James, and there aren't all that many scientists "seeing" it under the microscope.
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Yes, there are. You can see it under the electronmicroscope. I already showed you a picture of it in this thread that was in the very first HIV publication. You merely ignored it, like the rest of reality.

HIV.gif


I posted this picture after you claimed falsely that there were never scalebars in HIV pictures. After which I pulled the very first HIV publication, and...it had a scalebar. Like all pictures in scientific publications.

You claim things. We show you are wrong. That's how immoral you are. You have faith in your own believes in conspiracies in a matter that affects the lives of real people.
 
leopold99 said:
the above proves that antiretrovirus medicine IS NOT the cause of death in AIDS patients.
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Not until the ignored question is answered, so let's give it one more try.

What elimantes the alternative thesis?

I propose, seriously, that neither is half way as important as that which was already known since the beginning of time to be the prime factor with regard to good health, as is widely acknowledged by the medical profession: The mental outlook of the patient, his karma, his will to live and and the care attention to that general effect as the alternative to the "no hope if you've got it " despair, that is why they get better or sick of it, not because the will of the patient subserves to will of the chemical quacks.

When you go to a doctor do you feel empowered or is it more like a reversion to childhood?
 
his karma
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'Nuff said.

Well... maybe not...

When you go to a doctor do you feel empowered or is it more like a reversion to childhood?
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And here we have it, ladies and gentlemen.
The man doesn't like doctors and science because they make him feel like a child.
They fail to 'empower' him.

Metakron,

Maybe I'm wrong about Sauna.
Maybe he does believe in the crap that he's spewing.
He shares your victim's mentality.
 
invert_nexus said:
He shares your victim's mentality.
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That is perverse, and fails miserably to deal with the question.

The child victim blames others and turns to others for the remedy.

The mature adult minds his own and looks after himself.

I learn form experience. I discharged myself from hospital when they threatened imminent death by disease if I did, because I figured it was more important to get some sleep which was not the case in their hands. That was a decade ago and I am still here to prove them wrong, and proud of it.
 
Yes, Sauna, you've learned that there is no Delphic Oracle.
Your victim's mentality has twisted this into something inherently unuseful however.


I might as well share an anecdote of mine.
I had once thought about starting a thread on the topic, but never got around to it.

I have a friend who was dying from Hodgkin's disease.
He had lymphoma.
Cancer.
He did die. But was resuscitated.
He signed this little slip of paper allowing the doctor's to try experimental medicines on him.
They did.
He recovered from his lymphoma and has survived over 30 years since his illness.
No cancer.

There are stories on both sides of the fence when it comes to medicine and doctors.
But, on the whole, life expectancy has increased, Sauna.
Perhaps you'd like to go back to the days when bloodletting was the height of medical science.
Balancing the four humors is an extremely self-empowering task.
It's up to you to maintain your personal karma.
All that garbage.
But, the funny thing is that it's science that has worked.
Not your mystic mumbo jumbo.

Yes, there is certainly a personal will aspect to any recovery. The mood of the patient affects the immune system in diverse ways.

But you've gone off the track.

Because doctors make you feel small and helpless.

A hint: the operative word in self-respect is self.
 
Let us try again then.

What elimantes the alternative thesis?

If this is science, not a belief system, the need is to measure.

If there is not at least a double blind test, because the infliction of a double blind test is deemed to be immoral, it follows logically that pure science is immoral, not vise versa.
 
The alternative thesis that the morbidity rate depends overwhelmingly upon that which was already known since the beginning of time to be the prime factor with regard to good health, ... etc.

Morbid attitudes and expectations engender morbid results.

This is not news. Just about every religion yet adhered to by anybody proposed something of the sort.
 
Wait.
This is your alternative thesis?
"The mental outlook of the patient, his karma, his will to live and and the care attention to that general effect as the alternative to the "no hope if you've got it " despair, that is why they get better or sick of it, not because the will of the patient subserves to will of the chemical quacks."

Well. Karma can be dismissed out of hand as superstitious garbage (at the best it is untestable and thus outside the realm of science).

However, I've already admitted that the mood of the patient factors in to the equation.
But, if you expect anyone to think that someone can will themselves out of hiv infection/aids... then you're whack, Jack.

And, yes, there have been scientific studies along these lines. Not necessarily with hiv as it is a mortal condition, but with other types of conditions.
I'm sure you've heard of placebos?
The placebo effect?

Also, as I've mentioned, medicine cures people of illnesses that were once untreatable. Wishful thinking never did that.

So, if that's your 'alternative thesis' then it can be discounted easily.

This is not news. Just about every religion yet adhered to by anybody proposed something of the sort.
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Yeah.
And religion did a lot for the world...
Look at all the cures that religion has brought about.
The healing.
The knowledge and understanding of the world about us.
(That's sarcasm, in case you fail to grasp it.)
 
If this is science, not a belief system, the need is to measure.

If all youv'e got is opinionated rant then that we shall just have to judge the morality of it from that.
 
If this is science, not a belief system, the need is to measure.
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Pssst.
This isn't science.
This is discussion.
About science.
Two very different things.

As I said, there have been studies about faith healing and whatnot.
It's been shot down. Sorry to disappoint you.

Also, evidence that your mentality doesn't fly is supported by the fact that people are healthier and live longer lives, more disease free, than they did pre-science.

So, you really do want us to go back to the trees.
Funny.
Or is it just the caves?
Mud hut?
Regardless, you've more than demonstrated your lack of understanding of science, and now have shown your contempt for it as an institution altogether.

Do you have anything else to say?
 
invert_nexus said:
But you fail to acknowledge it.
Wishful thinking doesn't work.
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To the contrary, that is pretty much the point:

The magic bullet approach to medicine never works.

Which does the wishful thinking expect to find first, the magic cure for cancer, herpes, the common cold or AIDS, or does it just go on for ever with the promises, promises?

Karma is about the doing, now, the immediate, not the wish for tomorrow.
 
Which does the wishful thinking expect to find first, the magic cure for cancer, herpes, the common cold or AIDS, or does it just go on for ever with the promises, promises?
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Yeah.
Nasty old science never found a cure to nothing.
Bugger that old liar science.
It's never done no good to nobody.

Karma is about the doing, now, the immediate, not the wish for tomorrow.
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Then what part does it have to play in the wish to be healed of aids?
Oh. You want to be healed today, not tomorrow.

Ooooh.
Aaaah.
 
I'd expect that most would rather be healed today, not tomorrow.

That is the reason for the Buddhist Way, to provide an immediate practical alternative to pie in the sky.

Sorry to disappoint.
 
I'd expect that most would rather be healed today, not tomorrow.
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Sounds like an impatient child.
What was it you said about being made to feel like a child?

That is the reason for the Buddhist Way, to provide an immediate practical alternative to pie in the sky.
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To cure aids?
Through willpower?
Today? Not tomorrow?

Sorry to disappoint.
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Oh, you stopped disappointing me long ago.
I gave up on you in the distant past.
 
Hmm.
Anyway.
Now that I've thought about it some more.
I'm glad that you never asked me to educate you on the philosophy of science. What I had planned to teach you could be taken in such a way as to seemingly invalidate science.
You'd get a real kick out of it, I'm sure.
So much so, in fact, I'm sure you'd be repeating it everywhere you went.

Your loss.

And I withdraw my offer, so don't even ask.

(Note: it only seemingly invalidates science. That is, it can be interpreted that way. And I know you would. You'd refuse to see the more pragmatic side of the affair. Evidenced by your refusal to acknowledge that science has ever cured anything.)

Bye.
I'm done with this thread.
 
If it "only seems" to invalidate science, but looks a lot like it does, perhaps existentialist Popperism isn't for us, Invert. Anyway, you didn't expect me or Sauna to accept any more pettifoggery, did you, really? the "Emperor's New Clothes" game is already past its sell-by.
 
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