Agnostic no more

Sorry to lose you, Coffee. I hope your decision makes you happy, but I can't support you in it.

Im going to "borrow" something from a atheist and slightly change it. I believe God excists, but if you prove me wrong, I will become a atheist. I wish I could expect the same in return although I doubt it.

If you can't prove yourself to me, I do not understand how you could hold these beliefs.

*cracks knuckles*

I'm sure you're familiar with the name William of Occam, the man who codified the logical (READ: common sense) principal of Occam's Razor. This sadly misunderstood piece of reasoning is quite simple and goes a little something like this:

Keep it simple, stupid!

To elaborate, it's an arguement against redundancy. When confronted with two (or more) competing ideas, the idea that involves the least amount of redundancy is superior.

To illustrate:
I have a theory that explains the nature of my shoe-laces. It's 20 pages of equations that eventually tell me just how long my laces are. It's a bit tedious, but it works and is quite accurate.
But wait! My best friend suddenly appears with another theory about my shoe-laces, which explains their length in a single line. We furiously compare results and we find that they are identical.

Which theory is superior? Mine, with 20 pages of redundant crap, or my friend's, which pares it down to a single line?

If you have any common sense you'd choose the theory that explains my laces in a single line. If you're musclewhatsupyall, you probably are drooling out the side of your mouth while being fed pablum with a spork.

Now let's take this common sense, eminantly logical principal to the question of Life, the Universe, and EVERYTHING. We have two competing theories, and I'll lay them out for all to see.

1. Life, the Universe and Everything. It's here, it functions, it came about in the Big Bang, and 15 000 000 000 years later a small planet in the western spiral arm of the Milky Way galaxy orbiting an insignificant yellow star spawns a quasi-intelligent race of apes who suffer from delusions of grandeur and (in all respect to Douglas Adams) think digital watches are a nifty idea. All its mechanisms are observable, and we're starting to understand just how the very fabric of it all functions (quantum physics). There are still many unanswered questions, like just why DID the Big Bang happen, but in the words of Yoda "Patience!".

2. All of the above, only with the ADDITIONAL stipulation that God was responsible.

Which theory has the redundant component?

As an interesting aside, it's worth noting that William of Occam followed this exact same reasoning and came to this same conclusion; namely, that the existence of God cannot be logically reasoned and if one is to believe in him it must be by faith alone. Was he an atheist? No. Was he an agnostic? No. He was a theologian (ie a religious philosopher) by trade, and educated by the Franciscans.

There's your life-raft, Coffee ;). You seem like someone who can appreciate reasoning, rather than someone who simply invents explanations for preconceived notions and passes it off as logic.
 
Hi everyone. I'm new here. I was browsing the internet and stumbled across this forum site. Pretty nifty. I am enjoying this thread and thought I would just say hello. Maybe I'll add my own two cents at some point. Until then, keep up the great dialogue!
 
Originally posted by ThatJerk
Sorry to lose you, Coffee. I hope your decision makes you happy, but I can't support you in it.



*cracks knuckles*

I'm sure you're familiar with the name William of Occam, the man who codified the logical (READ: common sense) principal of Occam's Razor. This sadly misunderstood piece of reasoning is quite simple and goes a little something like this:

Keep it simple, stupid!

To elaborate, it's an arguement against redundancy. When confronted with two (or more) competing ideas, the idea that involves the least amount of redundancy is superior.

To illustrate:
I have a theory that explains the nature of my shoe-laces. It's 20 pages of equations that eventually tell me just how long my laces are. It's a bit tedious, but it works and is quite accurate.
But wait! My best friend suddenly appears with another theory about my shoe-laces, which explains their length in a single line. We furiously compare results and we find that they are identical.

Which theory is superior? Mine, with 20 pages of redundant crap, or my friend's, which pares it down to a single line?

If you have any common sense you'd choose the theory that explains my laces in a single line. If you're musclewhatsupyall, you probably are drooling out the side of your mouth while being fed pablum with a spork.

YOUR RIGHT! Thats why Im a christian, and not an atheist, because the fact remains, God is evident, and "SUPER DUPER LUCK". Isnt. Is there a "chance" that earthquake, lightning, and wind can create a FUNCTIONING JET POWERED AIRPLANE in 2 seconds? No, there isnt to me...If you claim there is a possiblity, THEN YOU NEED TO PRESENT PROOF OF ITS POSSIBILITY. But because this has not been demonstrated, therefore IT IS ILLOGIC TO BELIEVE THIS. Then others stressed that there is a chance such thing can happen, the atheist...THATS WHY IM A CHRISTIAN...........




Originally posted by ThatJerk

Now let's take this common sense, eminantly logical principal to the question of Life, the Universe, and EVERYTHING. We have two competing theories, and I'll lay them out for all to see.

1. Life, the Universe and Everything. It's here, it functions, it came about in the Big Bang, and 15 000 000 000 years later a small planet in the western spiral arm of the Milky Way galaxy orbiting an insignificant yellow star spawns a quasi-intelligent race of apes who suffer from delusions of grandeur and (in all respect to Douglas Adams) think digital watches are a nifty idea. All its mechanisms are observable, and we're starting to understand just how the very fabric of it all functions (quantum physics). There are still many unanswered questions, like just why DID the Big Bang happen, but in the words of Yoda "Patience!".

2. All of the above, only with the ADDITIONAL stipulation that God was responsible.

Which theory has the redundant component?

As an interesting aside, it's worth noting that William of Occam followed this exact same reasoning and came to this same conclusion; namely, that the existence of God cannot be logically reasoned and if one is to believe in him it must be by faith alone. Was he an atheist? No. Was he an agnostic? No. He was a theologian (ie a religious philosopher) by trade, and educated by the Franciscans.

There's your life-raft, Coffee ;). You seem like someone who can appreciate reasoning, rather than someone who simply invents explanations for preconceived notions and passes it off as logic.

FACT...1.) THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE BIG BANG THEORY, BUT IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATION, A GOOD ONE IF U MAY SAY IT...THEREFORE THIS REQUIRES FAITH...

FACT....2.) THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF QUANTUM PHYSICS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFE FORMS, BUT IS JUST A SPECULATI0N, A GOOD DECEPTION IF U MAY SAY IT...THEREFORE THIS REQUIRES FAITH...

FACT....3.) NOT ONE SCIENTIST CAN CREATE ANY LIFE FORMS, THE MOST THEY CAN DO IS GATHER AMONIA, METHANE, AND HYDROGEN THEN USE LIGHTNING TO FORM AMINO ACIDS, THOUGH LIFE FORMS MY CONTAIN AMINO ACIDS, IT DOESNT MEAN AMINO ACIDS IS GOING TO MAGICLY BECOME HEART, LIVER, BRAIN, ETC. AND "ACCIDENTALLY" BECOME A FULL LIVING CREATURE...THE ODD OF THIS HAPPENING IS VERY UNLIKELY....IT IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR A FUNCTIONING JET POWERED AIRPLANE TO FORM BY EARTHQUAKE LIGHTNING, AND WIND IN 2 SECONDS, THAN FOR A LIVING CREATURE BY AMINO ACIDS...THATS A FACT...THE HUMAN BODY AND EVEN A SINGLE CELL IS FAR FAR MORE COMNPLEX THAN A JET POWERED AIRPLANE....

FACT...4.) ATHEISM IS PURE DELUSION....THE END....
 
Revised facts...

Fact 5) Whatsupyall is delusional. The most delusional person on this forum. He is so blinded with his "faith" that he is living a lie.
 
Fact...Thor and atheists falsely accuse me of being wrong, YET CANNOT SHOW ME ONE THING THAT I SAID WHICH IS WRONG...a fact...So whos delusional? They are, and thats a FACT...
 
whatsupyall

For example, a close family friend approached you and asked if she can borrow your car for 2 days and promised to return it back, however, she gave you her credit card incase if the car gets totally wrecked you can take all the money out of her bank and keep it to replace your car. But because you have “faith” in her, you just told her “its ok, you don’t need to give me a blank check, you’re my best friend and a good driver for many years now and I know you’ll return the car on time safely, I trust you”. That’s faith

You're right, that's faith.

However, the faith you desribe religion as having is not the same type of faith. In your example, you have faith on the friend because she is your best friend, she has proven herself to be a good driver and you know [think] she'll return your car safely. That is, you have valid reasons to believe what you believe, based on past experience and observation.

Religious faith is nothing like that; there is nothing to base religious faith on but pure speculation.

BTW, I'm not bashing/supporting religion, I'm just saying that your analogy is way off. :)
 
Originally posted by Thor
Revised facts...

Fact 5) Whatsupyall is delusional. The most delusional person on this forum. He is so blinded with his "faith" that he is living a lie.

Why do say he is delusional, and living a lie?
What has he said, that makes you so sure?

Just curious!!!!!;)

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
whatsupyall:

I don't know why I even bother, but I suppose it's my duty to point out your folly for those who may otherwise be sucked in. Here goes...

YOUR RIGHT! Thats why Im a christian, and not an atheist, because the fact remains, God is evident, and "SUPER DUPER LUCK". Isnt.

How is God evident? So far the only 'evidence' I see is unfounded claims and lots of hot air. Also, I'd appreciate an explanation as to the nature of this "SUPER DUPER LUCK" that you seem so fond of attributing to myself and other atheists. None of us speak of any such thing, and any attempt to attribute such a statement to any of us is, at best, a strawman attack born out of astounding ignorance.

Is there a "chance" that earthquake, lightning, and wind can create a FUNCTIONING JET POWERED AIRPLANE in 2 seconds? No, there isnt to me...If you claim there is a possiblity, THEN YOU NEED TO PRESENT PROOF OF ITS POSSIBILITY.

No, there isn't a chance in hell that that could happen, and Hoyle was an idiot for suggesting that as an analogy for abiogenesis. It's provided fodder for countless numbers of creationist probability arguements, and a never-ending headache for intelligent people everywhere who are forced to discredit it again and again and again. I'm not in the mood to lecture you on the difference between combined probability and deterministic probability, so go here for some education in high-school math.

But because this has not been demonstrated, therefore IT IS ILLOGIC TO BELIEVE THIS. Then others stressed that there is a chance such thing can happen, the atheist...THATS WHY IM A CHRISTIAN...........

You're right, it WOULD be illogical to believe something as retarded as the jet airplane analogy. Which is why I nor any other educated atheist use it as an example.

FACT...1.) THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THE BIG BANG THEORY, BUT IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATION, A GOOD ONE IF U MAY SAY IT...THEREFORE THIS REQUIRES FAITH...

The Big Bang theory is based on observation of stellar movement on a galactic scale. Essentially, astronomers observe everything in the universe hurtling away from a central point, like fragments from a big fucking cosmic hand grenade. Using the Hubble Telescope, we can observe events that occured very shortly after the universe was created.
It's as solid as any other established theory; it's prediction of the presence of universal background radiation was confirmed long after the fact.
Granted, it probably never can be confirmed the way gravity or evolution can, but it fits the observable facts so perfectly that it's very unlikely to be disproven any time soon.
Only faith involved here is the faith I place in the observational powers and unbiased reasoning of history's greatest minds.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

Go here for further education, if you're interested.

FACT....2.) THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF QUANTUM PHYSICS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIFE FORMS, BUT IS JUST A SPECULATI0N, A GOOD DECEPTION IF U MAY SAY IT...THEREFORE THIS REQUIRES FAITH...

Did I say quantum physics is responsible for life forms? Would you be so kind as to point out where I said such a thing?
In case you're doubting the reality of quantum physics in and of itself, go here. It's been observed for quite some time, and we're beginning to make significant discoveries about it's nature that seem to only create more questions than are answered. Which isn't to say that we don't understand a fair chunk of it already; rather, doors that we never imagined existed are being discovered and opened by answering a few of the simpler questions that have been around since the 40s.

FACT....3.) NOT ONE SCIENTIST CAN CREATE ANY LIFE FORMS, THE MOST THEY CAN DO IS GATHER AMONIA, METHANE, AND HYDROGEN THEN USE LIGHTNING TO FORM AMINO ACIDS, THOUGH LIFE FORMS MY CONTAIN AMINO ACIDS, IT DOESNT MEAN AMINO ACIDS IS GOING TO MAGICLY BECOME HEART, LIVER, BRAIN, ETC. AND "ACCIDENTALLY" BECOME A FULL LIVING CREATURE...THE ODD OF THIS HAPPENING IS VERY UNLIKELY....IT IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR A FUNCTIONING JET POWERED AIRPLANE TO FORM BY EARTHQUAKE LIGHTNING, AND WIND IN 2 SECONDS, THAN FOR A LIVING CREATURE BY AMINO ACIDS...THATS A FACT...THE HUMAN BODY AND EVEN A SINGLE CELL IS FAR FAR MORE COMNPLEX THAN A JET POWERED AIRPLANE....

I'm not going to bother with this one. Go here, though I'm starting to get the sneaking suspicion that little things like mere evidence and trifling confirmed observations are of little concern to you.

FACT...4.) ATHEISM IS PURE DELUSION....THE END....

Spoken like a true Christian. I salute your abilities to maintain such selective ignorance in this day and age.
 
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