Against Agnosticism - or - God is Provable

Michael said:
I suppose it just seems that this God is an eternal hard drive in the sky - the Universe itself. It is not rational because it can not think, it can not think because it is all knowing.
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remember that god is all powerful, so he can also forget all his knowing, so that he can think again.

If it's the universe then why the need for the word God?
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because there are different definitions for god. for example, some say that god is not omnipresent. if god is life (like jesus/god says), he can be both omnipresent and not. he can be both impersonal and personal etc.

codanblad said:
As such, we're just as entitled to worship satan,
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worship this god: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanat_Kumara

he's pretty cool. he's the ancientofdays from the bible. an advanced spiritual being who came to earth from venus 18 million years ago.
 
JDawg said:
Prince James,



How is it truth without evidence? Without evidence, you must assume. That's the point I'm driving at. I'm not saying that there's no place for philosophy in the world, I'm just saying that you don't get the answers from it.
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the evidence is your perceptions
 
Yorda said:
remember that god is all powerful, so he can also forget all his knowing, so that he can think again.
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How can anything know everything and not know everything. It can not. It either is all knowing or it is not. The OP said it is - so it is.

And by everything I mean the state of every single electron, every single quark, etc... in every single atom through out the Universe for all of time. The only way such a thing could have such information (in my mind) is if it is either the Universe itself and therefor the information is contained in its being or it would have to be a large computer like machine which is running Universe Simulation 1.0 and therefor must have all of this information to run the simulation.

Either way, the notion of a God as being a thinking rational being goes out the window and we are left with a thing that can not think and is not rational. In essence - a machine. Why would anyone worship such a thing? Why would such a thing require worship? I can't see that it would. It would be an emotional caring unthinking irrational thing and I don't think this is what most people think of when they think about the word God.
 
codanblad said:
even if he does make it 5 dollars higher, he knew he was going to change it sometime in the future. all omniscience proves is that he is incapable of making mistakes, 'mistakes' is just the easy way to describe choices which sucked for us, or seem stupid.
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If he knew so, he would have to predict it, then I would change my request to change the future, then he would have predicted my change, and so on in an endless loop until there wasn't enough time before the event to make a prediction... so that doesn't work.
 
Michael said:
How can anything know everything and not know everything. It can not. It either is all knowing or it is not.
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god is omnipresent, so god is in you and me too. god has separated itself into many entities, that's how he can know anything between everything and nothing.

The only way such a thing could have such information (in my mind) is if it is either the Universe itself and therefor the information is contained in its being
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god is not a being. he is THE being. existence itself. or consciousness. so... "the being" knows everything about every atom and every electron because it is in every electron and atom, like he is in every human.

In essence - a machine. Why would anyone worship such a thing?
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everything in the universe is alive to some degree. machines also get their energy from the lifeforce (god). things can't move or do anything without a will.

Why would such a thing require worship?
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god does not require worship, but some people do, because they don't realize that they are the god that they are worshippping. if god needed worship to feel good or something, then he wouldn't be a very powerful god.
 
god is not a being. he is THE being. existence itself. or consciousness. so... "the being" knows everything about every atom and every electron because it is in every electron and atom, like he is in every human.
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You're attributing stuff to God that doesn't necessarily have to be true. Why would he be required to feel every atom and particle of his being? Actually, taking this point of view, you strip God of his deity status; if his entire being is the universe and everything within it, then he's not exactly capable of creating himself, is he?
 
Who's this "he"? You mean "God is a personality"? Like a person is?

But I'm a person, and I'm not "everything", that's ridiculous.
I am God though, like "everything" else is. God doesn't "know" anything, because knowing is what we do. God is knowing, not some "thing" or person.
 
Vkothii said:
Who's this "he"? You mean "God is a personality"? Like a person is?

But I'm a person, and I'm not "everything", that's ridiculous.
I am God though, like "everything" else is. God doesn't "know" anything, because knowing is what we do. God is knowing, not some "thing" or person.
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OK, I just wanted to find our base here. So this God, according to your belief, is not a being, but simply existence itself?

So then there is no deity, in your view?
 
JDawg said:
Why would he be required to feel every atom and particle of his being?
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how else could he know everything bout them?

then he's not exactly capable of creating himself, is he?
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nothing can create itself. only nothing can.

Vkothii said:
Who's this "he"? You mean "God is a personality"? Like a person is?
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put god in a person, and he becomes the person (jesus). put him in a teapot, and he becomes the teapot.

"Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend" -- Bruce Lee

god is impersonal (formless) because god has infinite personalities.
 
Yorda, you obviously believe in the God of Abraham, which means I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to Vkothii, who seems to believe that God is the universe, not some spiritual being.

nothing can create itself. only nothing can.
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But "nothing" did not create itself. Nothing created the universe. I mean, that's what you're trying to get at, isn't it? But if God is the universe, then God isn't exactly the "nothing" we're talking about. God, in this case, would be the result, not the cause.
 
Yorda said:
remember that god is all powerful, so he can also forget all his knowing, so that he can think again.
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*************
M*W: I tried to think of something to answer your statement, but I couldn't. It blows my mind.

worship this god: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanat_Kumara he's pretty cool. he's the ancientofdays from the bible. an advanced spiritual being who came to earth from venus 18 million years ago.
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*************
M*W: I can honestly say that I am dumbfounded.
 
JDawg said:
So then there is no deity, in your view?
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Because, instead of an external God with a personality (and a big beard, maybe a big book too), there's just "existence"?

How do you connect "just existence" with: "so there is no deity"? There is the external existence, outside of the internal one right?

So, it's all just "stuff"; there's the stuff that's "where you're at", and the stuff that isn't. But what is it? What is a deity, exactly?
Isn't that something along the lines of a personality - which is something that we have?

Could there be a connection there somewhere... let's think real hard now
 
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How do you connect "just existence" with: "so there is no deity"? There is the external existence, outside of the internal one right?
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I admit, you're losing me here. If you are actually asking me if there is anything beyond the universe, the answer is that I don't know. There are multiverse theories, theories that say our universe is part of a bigger picture...but ultimately nobody knows if there is anything beyond our universe.

So, it's all just "stuff"; there's the stuff that's "where you're at", and the stuff that isn't. But what is it? What is a deity, exactly?
Isn't that something along the lines of a personality - which is something that we have? Could there be a connection there somewhere...
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I was saying that if this "god" is the entirety of existence, then this "god" isn't the creator, but the created. If I follow you correctly, you are saying that there is no supreme being that created all of this, correct?
 
JDawg said:
I admit, you're losing me here. If you are actually asking me if there is anything beyond the universe, the answer is that I don't know.
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Well, of course, how can you know about something that's beyond experience.
What I mean with the internal/external thing is fairly straightforward: you have your existence which you perceive from inside yourself, and you perceive an external world. That's all that you can ever know there is.

If I follow you correctly, you are saying that there is no supreme being that created all of this, correct?
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Not exactly, now I'm not sure what you mean by: "supreme being". As in: "the ultimate personality", or something, you mean?
 
spidergoat said:
If he knew so, he would have to predict it, then I would change my request to change the future, then he would have predicted my change, and so on in an endless loop until there wasn't enough time before the event to make a prediction... so that doesn't work.
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are you claiming to know what he knows, or what? you're saying that no matter what the oil price is, you'll always desire it 5 dollars higher? who says that god thinks? he's all knowing, there's nothing for him to think about.

alternatively, what's to say he's not simply an incredibly powerful entity? he doesn't have to know everything to create everything. he's just playing sims on a grander scale.

i feel i should add religion requires blind faith. that and/or hallucinations and delusion. if you don't have that, you just gotta deal with things like a man.
 
Not exactly, now I'm not sure what you mean by: "supreme being". As in: "the ultimate personality", or something, you mean?
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C'mon, man, you know perfectly well what I mean. Stop bickering semantics, and look at the question in its context. If "god" is the entirety of existence, then you're saying there was no "creator", correct? The question doesn't get any easier than that.
 
codanblad said:
are you claiming to know what he knows, or what? you're saying that no matter what the oil price is, you'll always desire it 5 dollars higher? who says that god thinks? he's all knowing, there's nothing for him to think about.

alternatively, what's to say he's not simply an incredibly powerful entity? he doesn't have to know everything to create everything. he's just playing sims on a grander scale.

i feel i should add religion requires blind faith. that and/or hallucinations and delusion. if you don't have that, you just gotta deal with things like a man.
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The premise of the thought experiment is that you ask God what will happen, he is supposed to know, if he is omniscient. He tells you. Since humans are limited to linear time, you then ask him to make the future something different than what he told you. If he can do that, his prediction was false. If he cannot, then he isn't omnipotent. That's what I mean when I say these qualities are contradictory.
 
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