heresJohnny
Registered Senior Member
Thanks Jan.
Afterlife and Pre-life
- Thread starter heresJohnny
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Thanks Jan.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
There is no indication of a before either.
As well as induced methods. When we simulate conditions that the brain would go through during death, many people report bright lights, out of body experiences, and hallucinations, even though they are not actually dying. So either it's all in the head, or the soul tries to flee a brain that seems to be dying, even when it isn't. One is a bit more reasonable than the other.
As for the before, without any evidence whatsoever, you'd have to just accept the soul creation or migration as being true simply to support the soul belief itself. There's nothing to argue about as the few things we have to go with can be explained as symptoms, so you're left with just a belief in both before and afterlife, which comforts some, but those of us who need more than that to sustain the belief I guess will have to wait and see. Or not see.
IMO, you are after death as you are before birth - nothing, non-existent. Like I was, say, in the time of the dinosaurs.
I think the problem is just a somewhat inaccurate terminology.
When people have near-death experiences, these are sometimes actually out-of-body experiences.
And so when people who are new to these things call them "afterlife" experiences, what they may actually mean is 'out of body experience; the sense that there is something more or else to us than the body.'
Out of body experiments have shown that they are hallucinations. No one has been able to describe their experience beyond what they could imagine it to be like. That is, they couldn't give details that they would have known had they actually been floating around past the area they were in.
Can you post some links to those experiments?
I've heard one where above hospital beds, they placed screens with changing numbers, but outside of the person's view if they'd be lying in bed, so that they could see those numbers only if they would "leave the body."
It was a longitudinal study, because these events aren't that frequent.
That said, I am skeptical about such experiments, given that people generally seem to notice very little about their environment anyway.
I had an OBE while in a car accident, but I don't remember the licence number of the cars involved - I don't remember such things anyway.
I've heard one where above hospital beds, they placed screens with changing numbers, but outside of the person's view if they'd be lying in bed, so that they could see those numbers only if they would "leave the body."
It was a longitudinal study, because these events aren't that frequent.
That said, I am skeptical about such experiments, given that people generally seem to notice very little about their environment anyway.
I had an OBE while in a car accident, but I don't remember the licence number of the cars involved - I don't remember such things anyway.
By the same token there are a few cases of persons calling upon memories of when they were 2 years old - personally I have no memories of that time ... any many persons who are alleged to have been 2 years old at some time also give the same response.Thank you, its good to be here at least for awhile longer.
Since my heart stopped my brain DID NOT receive any blood to it therefore it wasn't active without any oxygen circulating through it. My brain activity was also non existent as well. So for you to disagree with the medical professionals isn't something I'd think is right for you to do without at least consulting with them. You're not knowledgeable enough to determine whether I was or wasn't dead, only the doctors there were. They said I was dead so I believe them and not you and your "opinion" about what happened to me.
I did not have anything happen other than nothing at all when I was dead and I'm not trying to get attention but no one ever has wanted to get my story to write about, why do you think that has happened? All you get to read about is what they want you to hear and be told about, not all the other stories that are out here awaiting for someone to write about us. I guess there's no profit to be made by telling the other side of the story is there?:shrug:
IOW the whole faculty of recall and sensory experience is subject to extensive conditioning which delivers certain results (an d even non-results)
IOW the argument that such experiences should deliver a uniform result isn't really a valid argument (since the conditions that frame such experiences are far from uniform)
Moreover, we need to consider that people have different levels of awareness of what goes in their immediate environment, in their body and in their mind.
Given that many people are victims of con men, all kinds of fraud and deceit, and that many can be hypnotized, this suggests that many people are not all that aware of what goes on in their own minds, what their own intentions are.
When choosing subjects for out-of-body experiments, only people who are trustworthy, who know their minds should be considered, and not the average person who can easily be tricked by a street con man.
That was primarily what I was referring to.
http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/Beyond-the-Mind-Body-Problem/The-Human-Consciousness-Project/the-AWARE-study.html
I would guess that they would try and pick things that would stand out to someone, rather than just numbers or letters. I agree that in that circumstance, you probably wouldn't pay attention to ordinary things. But more importantly, they're also trying to study how the body shuts down, to better get an understanding of the death process. It wasn't so long ago that someone not breathing was enough to call them dead, and certainly there were cases of people "coming back to life" afterwards. And I wouldn't doubt that people differ in their body's ability to resuscitate. Some might succumb easier than others.
heresJohnny
Registered Senior Member
Jan, can a spirit feel or see? Can it sense anything or take memories? I guess not. As much as we weren't aware when we first came to this world, it's only reasonable to assume pitch black is the only thing that is expecting for us up there.
My understanding is that the soul has full conscious awareness, but the body it inhabits has limited sensual aparatus. IOW, the consciousness of the soul believeing himself to be the body he inhabits (conditioned), limits himself to sensual aparatus of that particular body.
jan.
Your understanding? What a crock.
Dissolving back into a non-conscious organization of matter/energy is to be what the universe generally is to itself: Absence of all, without even a concept or cognition of that absence. From that secular extinctivism conclusion you can then waltz amidst the briar patch of pondering the oddity (from the standpoint of currently having experience and thought, anyway) of such cosmic existence. That it somehow "is" for billions of years without any presence or evidence of itself, until perceiving entities evolve and "map it" as an exhibited world filled with countless individual things and events.
Its the most likely, isn't it? We know perception, sensations, thoughts and emotions are all functions of the brain. Memory, feelings, consciousness are likely to be the same. Ergo, no brain, no person. Which would also show why a personality develops as the brain develops in a child. No brain before birth, its disintegeration after death, it both cases all of the above will be lost - hence my conclusion that it is the state of personal non-existence.
heresJohnny
Registered Senior Member
Finally, a theory that makes sense. So are you suggesting that all of those people who claim they have reached the supernatural by stepping up in the spiritual level are impostors? As I understand from you this can not be done, or maybe what you really mean is that this so called mechanism could be unlocked?
Are you kidding me?
heresJohnny
Registered Senior Member
Why? I was completely serious when I asked for a religious interpretation regarding Pre-life. I can say about a theory that it fits from a certain perspective but that does't necessarily mean I believe it.
If the mind exists independent of the body then it is very likely to have the same sort of liabilities as when associated with a body. Amnesia, repressed memory, disassociation, etc.. The death of a body one may assume the entirety of identity could easily be traumatic enough to warrant such responses. This would at least be plausible of past-life repressed memory.
As far as any "pre-life", it would be likely that the current life consensus reality would impart an increasing unreality on any immaterial existence, as there is nothing to trigger, reinforce, or compare any such memory.
Or very simply, most people don't recall earlier than 3-5 years of age. If that can occur within the current life, there is no reason to expect that would not be consistent among any multiple lives.
As far as any "pre-life", it would be likely that the current life consensus reality would impart an increasing unreality on any immaterial existence, as there is nothing to trigger, reinforce, or compare any such memory.
Or very simply, most people don't recall earlier than 3-5 years of age. If that can occur within the current life, there is no reason to expect that would not be consistent among any multiple lives.