Affairs With Pupils - Why Not?

[James R]

Of course I think theres something wrong with it. I just don't think its enough a reason to make it illegal.

It isn't illegal. But it can and should (IMO) result in the loss of the teacher's job.

A boss not allowing a person to get a promotion, or a teacher not allowing a student in a university because of personal relationship issues are just signs of an incompetent boss and teacher.

Yes. And therefore they shouldn't be in that job.

I go to college, teachers like students more than others and grade them easier all the time.

Those teachers shouldn't be in the job either, if that is true.

 

[chris4355]

That's just naive. These are not rational choices, but emotional ones. You just are too green to understand the distinction.

Ok wise guy. you are the one whos naiive for thinking a law is going to prevent every possible problem.

to what extent are you going to let people fuck with you, just so that you can feel comfortable?

I am talking about 2 consenting adults, their responsibility.

Yes I am against a 16 year old dating an adult teacher.

No, just human. Why do you think these laws exist? I cited safety belt laws as an example, but that seems to have gone over your head.

A seat belt saves a life without being much a burden. Making a relationship illegal is a violation of our rights. Its like my boss telling me I can't eat meat, or saying I can't hold a specific view.

Its complete bullshit.

And by the way, I don't believe not wearing a seat belt should be illegal. People should do as they want and be responsible for their consequences... when it comes to situations that can only harm them.

Adults? Sorry, you may be allowed to have sex at 16, but you aren't legally an adult, until 18. See the grey area? No? Maybe you will when you have more life experience.

I am talking about adults. If you read the thread you'll understand my view.

Hey btw, are you done with your constant "I am more mature than you" argument in every single one of your posts? Its getting a little old, like you.

 

[chris4355]

It isn't illegal. But it can and should (IMO) result in the loss of the teacher's job.

Listen I am not disagreeing with you that its weird, and wrong. I personally would recommend they start dating after the class ends.

But I just don't like the idea of people having the authority to control that part of your life. We don't need it.

There comes some degree of responsibilities with the things we do regardless of where we are. This situation is no different.

Two consenting adults should be fully aware that getting in a student-teacher relationship can cause some problems. But whatever, people fall in love, maybe that relationship will develop into something great, maybe it wont. Whatever the outcome, its not right to govern who you can date.

 

[James R]

chris4355,

You don't seem to get it. Rules on teachers not dating students are not aimed at restricting the personal freedoms of students, even if that is a side effect. Rather, the aim is to protect students from abuses of power by teachers. In other words, these rules exist for the good of the students, not to oppress them.

You sound like you may be young yourself:

But I just don't like the idea of people having the authority to control that part of your life. We don't need it.

You want the freedom to do what you want. Fine. But just maybe, you're not aware of what can (and often does) happen in relationships where there is a major power imbalance.

It is possible that in a few cases a teacher-student sexual relationship may be harmless in practice, but on balance it is just not worth taking the risk, because too many people have been harmed in such circumstances.

Also, perhaps you think this is restricted to schools. I can tell you that even universities have policies that prevent relationships between teachers and their students, even if the teacher is a 40 year old lecturer and the student is a 37 year old mature-age student in the teacher's class. Or, in rare cases where such relationships are not absolutely forbidden they must be disclosed, and the teacher concerned must then have no role in the assessment of that student's work. Again, this is to prevent abuse of power by the teacher, either to advantage or disadvantage the student.

 

[chris4355]

I think we can agree to disagree. I understand your point. I just don't like the idea of people controlling that part of your life.

Like I said, a student should be fully aware of the potential harm dating a teacher may cause, let him take the risk, let him be free to do as he wishes.

If a teacher makes an advance on a student, the student denies the teacher and thus the student gets a bad grade...

He/she should have evidence to complain about it, by showing his work, comparing it to others etc... I go to university, people contest their grades all the time, for plenty of reasons.

I mean, I can't even begin to look at this issue without laughing at the hypocrisy. So many universities are so expensive only the rich can get in, because of their outrageous donations. Or because they come from prestigious families.
So many students pass classes that they should NOT pass, simply because failing and dropping out students hurts the university financially.
There are probably hundreds of worst ways students get fucked over and don't get the education they deserve, nor the grade they deserve... yet we sit here and make rules about student-teacher relationships... come on.

 

[James R]

Like I said, a student should be fully aware of the potential harm dating a teacher may cause, let him take the risk, let him be free to do as he wishes.

But that's just it. Students aren't always aware of the risks. Also, positive discrimination can be as bad (for other students) as negative discrimination.

If a teacher makes an advance on a student, the student denies the teacher and thus the student gets a bad grade...

He/she should have evidence to complain about it, by showing his work, comparing it to others etc...

There's usually some discretion involved in marking. Lower marks can usually be explained away. Even if they look suspicious, there's seldom any definite proof that something dodgy has gone on.

So many students pass classes that they should NOT pass, simply because failing and dropping out students hurts the university financially.

Passing students who don't deserve to pass ultimately hurts the university financially. It's sub-standard graduates go out into the workforce, where they are found to be no good. The reputation of the university suffers, and people no longer want to go there or send their kids there or get employees from there. Less students means less income for the university.

Therefore, universities have an incentive to pass or fail students fairly. It may be true that some don't do that. But not the good ones.

There are probably hundreds of worst ways students get fucked over and don't get the education they deserve, nor the grade they deserve... yet we sit here and make rules about student-teacher relationships... come on.

There are other rules to prevent students being "fucked over" in other ways.

 

[chris4355]

But that's just it. Students aren't always aware of the risks. Also, positive discrimination can be as bad (for other students) as negative discrimination.

I agree with everything you said except the part I quoted. I still don't think its good enough a reason to take away someones right to start a relationship.

Any student who gets with a teacher should be aware of such consequences.

I understand why you are calling me naive, I see it myself if I held your point of view.

What you are not understanding is that I don't believe in taking away peoples most basic rights. People have to be responsible with themselves.

I believe this should be something thats looked down upon, making it illegal is too extreme.

 

[Pandaemoni]

There is a difference between "illegality" and "impropriety," and then there is a difference between "actual impropriety" and the "the appearance of impropriety."

I do not think it should be illegal for a lecturer to have a consensual relationship with a person of otherwise legal age. Whether or not such a relationship would be improper depends on the circumstances, but it would almost always appear to be improper.

To any other student in the class it would seem to potnentially skew the grades, if nothing else. Add to that the power differential that exists between the two and the likelihood of either (i) the older teacher manipulating the naive student for personal gratification or (ii) the student manipulating the unwitting lecturer for a better grade (whether the student gets that grade or not).

As such, it should not be illegal, but the teacher should be disciplined by the school involved for entertaining it.

 

[scorpius]

A Position of Trust​

The question is, should it be legal for teachers or lecturers to engage in sexual relations with students over 16? After all, if they had met each other anywhere else, they would have been perfectly at liberty to enter into such a relationship.

If you can pick out the relevant bits in the legal jargon found here and here, you'll find that, as it stands, teacher/pupil relations are punishable by law.

This was brought to my attention after a teacher at my local college was suspended without pay for having an affair with a 17 year-old nursing student (studying at the same college).

Any thoughts?

yeah,
people are hipocrats,
many if not all ,arguing against this would no doubt like to get it on with someone young too if they knew they wont get caught.

 

[swarm]

A Position of Trust​

The question is, should it be legal for teachers or lecturers to engage in sexual relations with students over 16? ...
This was brought to my attention after a teacher at my local college was suspended without pay for having an affair with a 17 year-old nursing student (studying at the same college).

Any thoughts?

Sure. Wait a freaking year or two til she's 18!

Make sure there is no conflict of intrest.

Nail away to your heart's content.

 

[swarm]

Absolutely it should be allowed. If it is voluntary and consensual, I see no reason why not.

Most places 16 year olds can't give full consent.

18 is the age of consent.

Certain relationships are seen as inherantly unbalenced interms of power. Depending on where and who there may be social, corperate, reglatory, civil and/or criminal censure.

Parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee, caregiver/patient, jailor/detainee, etc.

Teacher/minor student generally gets you fired and can result in statutory rape charges in the US. Soon as they are 18 and not a student you are good to go. I've known teacher/adult student relationships which were looked askance at, but allowed if the student was not part of the teacher's dept and the teacher recused themselves from ever teaching that student.

Boss/employee is about garranteed to be a sexual harrassment suit as soon as it goes south and unless you are the owner you'll be looking for a new job.

 

[scott3x]

Most places 16 year olds can't give full consent.18 is the age of consent.

Most places in the U.S. perhaps; the world standard is closer to 16. The age of consent for non anal sex in Canada is 16 nationally. It was 14 until a few years ago when they raised it. One of the most liberal western countries concerning the age of consent is Spain, which has it at 13 (raised from 12 not so long ago). For more info on the age of consent laws in varying countries, I recommend this site:
http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

Certain relationships are seen as inherantly unbalanced in terms of power.

Power differentials occur between people at or above the age of consent as well. The focus should always be whether abuse is occuring, not power differentials.

Depending on where and who there may be social, corporate, regulatory, civil and/or criminal censure.

Parent/child, teacher/student, boss/employee, caregiver/patient, jailor/detainee, etc.

Teacher/minor student generally gets you fired and can result in statutory rape charges in the US. Soon as they are 18 and not a student you are good to go. I've known teacher/adult student relationships which were looked askance at, but allowed if the student was not part of the teacher's dept and the teacher recused themselves from ever teaching that student.

Boss/employee is about guaranteed to be a sexual harrassment suit as soon as it goes south and unless you are the owner you'll be looking for a new job.

You're right on all of the above I believe. This doesn't mean that the current system is best when dealing with all of the above situations, however. Sexual harassment suits should only come up if someone actually felt harassed, not simply because a boss and one of his or her employees engaged in a sexual relationship. On the teacher thing, though, I admit that it seems that the whole thing would be a hell of a lot safer for everyone involved if the teacher wasn't teaching the student at the time of the sexual relationship atleast.

 

[swarm]

Most places in the U.S. perhaps

If you read the case law he presented it is obvious that 18 is the relelvant age. Also don't confuse age of consent to marry and age of consent to have sex. You can get married as young as 12 in some US states as well, but that doesn't mean you can consent to have sex outside of marriage at that age.

Power differentials occur between people at or above the age of consent as well. The focus should always be whether abuse is occuring, not power differentials.

Sorry, by definition those are relationships in which consent either can't be given or it is inherantly suspect. If you want to have sex with a patient, you have to stop being their care giver and there generally is a cooling off period or you will have you license yanked and may face regulatory, civil or criminal charges/penelties. Actual abuse and apparent consent are irrelevant. Getting married is irrelevant. Scott thinking it isn't fair is irrelevnt. With a minimum of effort you can find people who've gone to prison and had their careeers ruined because they didn't play it by the book.

Sexual harassment suits should only come up if someone actually felt harassed, not simply because a boss and one of his or her employees engaged in a sexual relationship.

They come up when the secretary figures out he ain't dumping mrs moneybags for her like he said.

 

[scott3x]

Most places in the U.S. perhaps

If you read the case law he presented it is obvious that 18 is the relelvant age.

You said in 'most places', I simply wanted to clarify that in most places in the world, the age of consent is closer to 16.

Also don't confuse age of consent to marry and age of consent to have sex.

I'm not.

You can get married as young as 12 in some US states as well, but that doesn't mean you can consent to have sex outside of marriage at that age.

So if you're married in some U.S. states you can have sex at 12? That's news to me. Do you have a source for that information?

Power differentials occur between people at or above the age of consent as well. The focus should always be whether abuse is occuring, not power differentials.

Sorry, by definition those are relationships in which consent either can't be given or it is inherantly suspect.

Can't be legally given, sure. As to inherently suspect, this may be the prevailing attitude, but I'd look at the particulars of the case myself.

If you want to have sex with a patient, you have to stop being their care giver and there generally is a cooling off period or you will have you license yanked and may face regulatory, civil or criminal charges/penalties.

Yeah, I'd heard of the 'can't date your patient' rule, hadn't heard of the cooling off period. If there were no laws on the subject, I'd look at the particulars of the case to decide whether it should be considered ok or not.

Actual abuse and apparent consent are irrelevant.

I disagree.

Getting married is irrelevant.

How so?

Scott thinking it isn't fair is irrelevant.

I disagree.

With a minimum of effort you can find people who've gone to prison and had their careeers ruined because they didn't play it by the book.

Did I say otherwise?

Sexual harassment suits should only come up if someone actually felt harassed, not simply because a boss and one of his or her employees engaged in a sexual relationship.

They come up when the secretary figures out he ain't dumping mrs moneybags for her like he said.

Certainly. Which is why the boss was a fool for promising it to his secretary in the first place.

 

[hypewaders]

Teaching in colleges, it's seemed more tacky than sexy. Too much of both, really. Now I must leave to fly an old German glider. Too sexy, but not tacky is best.

 

[Nasor]

If a professor made overtures to you and you rejected them, then got a poor grade in the next test, what would you think?

I would examine my test to see if it had been graded correctly. If it was graded correctly, I would know that I should have studied harder. If it was graded incorrectly, I would complain. I fail to see how this is an issue.

Edit: This is a pretty common issue with graduate students who teach undergrads at my university. You have a lot of 22-26 grad students teaching 18-22 undergrads...obviously things are going to happen.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Every educational institution worth its salt has a strict policy regarding teacher/student relationships. The problem may not be age (take for example a 22 year old student teacher and a 17 year old final-year school student). The problem is the position of authority the teacher has over the student, and the power imbalance involved.

The teacher marks the student's work. The teacher can to some extent tell the student what to do. Even if the influence exercised is not overt, the student may regard the teacher as an authority figure. If a relationship starts up, the power imbalance can mean that the student is not truly entering into it as a free agent. While the relationship continues, the teacher may treat the student more favourably than other students. And if the relationship ends, the teacher might unfairly punish the student by exercising power over them in various ways.

These are just some of the issues.

This was basically what I was gonna say, but James worded it better than me.

In a nutshell: sexual relationships and unequal power dynamics don't mix.

 

[scott3x]

“
Originally Posted by S.A.M.
If a professor made overtures to you and you rejected them, then got a poor grade in the next test, what would you think?
”
I would examine my test to see if it had been graded correctly. If it was graded correctly, I would know that I should have studied harder. If it was graded incorrectly, I would complain. I fail to see how this is an issue.

The issue comes to explaining motive.

From the student perspective: You reject an overture from your teacher, then the teacher grades you in a way that you deem to be unfair. You may then protest that you feel that the teacher graded you unfairly because you rejected his or her overtures. Not exactly the type of thing that any school would want to have to deal with. And frankly I wouldn't want to have to deal with it as a student either.

From the teacher perspective: A student rejects your overtures; later, you decide that their work isn't up to par and give them low marks or even a fail. The student protests as I mention above.

Now this isn't to say that some teacher/student relationships can't work out; Liebling actually mentioned that she had a nice relationship of this sort. But there are large risks that simply wouldn't be there if it wasn't a teacher/student relationship. In theory, there is also the potential for benefits, but I think that society as a whole has decided that the risks outweigh the benefits here, which is why this type of thing is generally frowned upon.

 

[scott3x]

Every educational institution worth its salt has a strict policy regarding teacher/student relationships. The problem may not be age (take for example a 22 year old student teacher and a 17 year old final-year school student). The problem is the position of authority the teacher has over the student, and the power imbalance involved.

The teacher marks the student's work. The teacher can to some extent tell the student what to do. Even if the influence exercised is not overt, the student may regard the teacher as an authority figure. If a relationship starts up, the power imbalance can mean that the student is not truly entering into it as a free agent. While the relationship continues, the teacher may treat the student more favourably than other students. And if the relationship ends, the teacher might unfairly punish the student by exercising power over them in various ways.

These are just some of the issues.

This was basically what I was gonna say, but James worded it better than me.

In a nutshell: sexual relationships and unequal power dynamics don't mix.

I believe that at times it can work, but I view the teacher/student relationship as exceptionally risky in this regard, for many reasons, including the ones James mentions.

 

[Nasor]

The issue comes to explaining motive.

From the student perspective: You reject an overture from your teacher, then the teacher grades you in a way that you deem to be unfair. You may then protest that you feel that the teacher graded you unfairly because you rejected his or her overtures. Not exactly the type of thing that any school would want to have to deal with. And frankly I wouldn't want to have to deal with it as a student either.

From the teacher perspective: A student rejects your overtures; later, you decide that their work isn't up to par and give them low marks or even a fail. The student protests as I mention above.

Unless you have some sort of bullshit grading system that allows teachers to assign arbitrary grades with no objective basis, it should be relatively straightforward to determine if the work was graded correctly or not. If the work is graded fairly, there is no issue. If it was graded unfairly, then proceed to punishing the teacher as necessary.

Edit: And as a teacher, if you decide to hit on a student and they shoot you down, well, you had better be extra careful when grading their work to make sure they don't have any basis for a complaint in the future.