Adam and Eve

When do you think Adam and Eve lived?

I told you, I will not play your Platonic games.
Please explain how that question relates to this thread, and belongs in this forum at all, as opposed to the religion forum.
As I said, I am treating this as a secular exploration and interpretation of an allegory.
In that context, please explain the relevance of that question.
As I have said several times today, please elaborate.
 
See, I'm not so sure about that.
It wasn't the Tree of Knowledge, after all. It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (which is "Right and Wrong", not necessarily "pleasant and unpleasant").
They obviously had knowledge, because God spoke with them, Adam named the animals etc.
I don't think there is any reason to assume they did not understand what death was.
God DID tell them that death was a consequence, and I would have to assume that if they did not know what death was, he would have explained it to them.
then they would have had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the apple, so why the tree why the temptation, why the serpent. Good and bad are in every aspect of the humanity, we class death as bad/evil/not good, because of this knowledge of bad we can define whats good, without knowledge of either we are but amoeba's, therefore for adam and eve to understand what death is they must have had knowledge of bad and good, unpleasant and pleasant. else you must assume as the xians do, that adam and eve knew they where doing wrong.
but they could not have known.
 
What do you think?

I think it's a fair theory. Let me toss out a potentially overlapping idea but also potentially contradictory idea. (not a Christian so I am not defending traditional analyses).

God wanted them to base decisions on relationship and trust rather than rules. Once they ate of the fruit it symbolically (via the act) moved them from a relationbased dynamic and interpersonal system to a moral based one. It was a false limit, God lied (they were not killed, though some say there they became mortal). But he was hoping that relationship could be based on a kind of mutual trust rather than a set of rules. They messed up and shifted God into a more rule-making role for all behavior. Though he told them not to eat it, it was a protective not a moral 'must'.

(of course the stories that have become myths have tended to serve those in power in various societies, here serving older men rather well.)
 
Good and bad are in every aspect of the humanity, we class death as bad/evil/not good, because of this knowledge of bad we can define whats good, without knowledge of either we are but amoeba's, therefore for adam and eve to understand what death is they must have had knowledge of bad and good, unpleasant and pleasant.

I see two problems with this.
First, there is the mixing of terms.
Evil and unpleasant/bad are not necessarily synonyms.
Evil assumes malice.
Morality refers to malicious and benevolent - not pleasant and unpleasant.
Stubbing your toe is certainly unpleasant, however, unless someone purposely places a rock in your path, there is nothing evil about it.

Stemming directly from that, you then have the problem of death equating to evil.
Death is not evil.

I think it's a fair theory. Let me toss out a potentially overlapping idea but also potentially contradictory idea. (not a Christian so I am not defending traditional analyses).
Toss away.

God wanted them to base decisions on relationship and trust rather than rules.
That seems pretty congruent with the idea.
An interesting perspective.

Once they ate of the fruit it symbolically (via the act) moved them from a relationbased dynamic and interpersonal system to a moral based one.
Right...

It was a false limit, God lied (they were not killed, though some say there they became mortal).
Ahhh...
God did not lie.
I hear this a lot, and I used to think so myself, the story, however, is very clear on the subject.
He tells them:
NIV Genesis 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
And when they eat of it, they are removed from the Garden, which has the Tree of Life.
People say they became mortal, because that's exactly what the story says:
NIV Genesis 3:2 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
And God did not lie, because he said they would surely die, whcih they eventually did - but would not have if they did not eat.

But he was hoping that relationship could be based on a kind of mutual trust rather than a set of rules. They messed up and shifted God into a more rule-making role for all behavior. Though he told them not to eat it, it was a protective not a moral 'must'.
I agree that it was a protective statement, but I disagree that they messed up.
They grew up.
They came of age.
Children are trusting, naive, don't know right from wrong, have no sexual desires or shame about their bodies, and do not know they are mortal.
They depend on their parents to protect and teach them.
Eventually, they become individuals and break away from the protective bubble that is mama's arms and face the world on their own.

(of course the stories that have become myths have tended to serve those in power in various societies, here serving older men rather well.)
I agree to a certain extent, but I don't see how that applies to this story at all.
 
The Old Testament tells us that Adam (first man) was designed to be a servant. His function was to till the soil and to care for the lush gardens and crops owned by his “God.” As long as Adam and Eve accepted their servant status and obeyed their ever-present masters, all of their physical needs would be met and they would be permitted to remain in their “paradise” indefinitely. There was, however, one unpardonable sin that they must never commit. They must never attempt to seek certain types of knowledge. Those forbidden forms of knowledge are symbolized in the story as two trees: the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” and the “tree of life.” The first “tree” symbolizes an understanding of ethics and justice. The second “tree” symbolizes the knowledge of how to regain and retain one’s spiritual identity and immortality.


Adam and Eve obeyed the commandments of their masters and lived in material bliss until another party entered the scene. The intervening party was symbolized in the story as a snake. The serpent convinced Eve to partake of the “fruit” * from the “tree of knowledge of good and evil.” Eve followed the serpent’s suggestion, as did Adam. “God” (i.e., Custodial leadership) became immediately alarmed:

And the Lord’ God said. Look, the man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil: and now, what if he puts forth his hand, and takes also of the tree of life, and eats, and lives forever?
GENESIS 3:22

This fruit is usually portrayed as an apple, but that is the invention of later artists. The Bible itself does not mention a specific fruit because the “fruit” was only a symbol to represent knowledge.
 
Vega,

How can an act be a sin, if the perpetrator is unaware of morality, therefore unaware it is wrong?
 
Perhaps you should ask the one who staged the entire act

The person who wrote the book has been dead for at least 2500 years and the story predates that bu ay least 500 years, so I don't see how that's possible.

So why don't you give me your opinon, instead.
 
Also, please address one of my first questions in the post...

Why would God have even placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden (Hell, why would he have even CREATED the trees) if he didn't want them to eat of it?
 
Also, please address one of my first questions in the post...

Why would God have even placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden (Hell, why would he have even CREATED the trees) if he didn't want them to eat of it?

There wasn't any real tree's at all but they were merely representations of "knowledge" and "life"
The so called "god" didn't expect humans to access the knowledge tree after his strict instructions. The mighty god was unaware that the humans were been manipulated by the serpert!
 
I was just reading through my opening post again, and as I read this...

Is this punishment or simply consequence of action?
God essentially gave a choice.
The two of you can live here in the perfect lush paradise of the Garden I created for you for eternity if you so choose.
You will have no worries, no difficulty, I will take care of you in every way.
Or...
You can reject this protection, and leave the garden.
Out there the land is dry desert.
Out there you do not have the Tree of Life, so you will taste death.
Out there life is difficult, and you will have to endure.
It is your choice; live like a pet in my terrarium, or open your eyes and go it alone.

...a notion came to mind.
The Torah is the section of the Tanakh that is supposed to be a history of the Jews.
The creation story closely parallels and is likely based on the Sumerian Creation story.
The Sumerian civilization was one of the first in the world (as far as we know) - certainly one of the first on the African continent.
As far as anyone can tell, the first "man" came out of Ethiopia.
When did man become man?
When he could tell stories.
All primates live along Riparian habitats.

Bear with me, I promise I am getting somewhere...

Man's first environment would have been along a river in Ethiopia surrounded by dry land barren of any lush crops...

It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.

Ethiopia is largely a desert climate, except for along the rivers - like say the convergence of four rivers...

NIV Genesis 2:10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

This very well could have been a story of moment of man's migration from the "safe" land along the river (possibly the point of convergence of the modern day Blue Nile, White Nile and Nile) and trek out to the unknown desert to seek his "destiny" and eventually settle Sumer.

Am I making sense at all?

I've often thought that the Torah resembles the life of man (both as an individual and as a collective) but I could never figure out which way it was meant to be taken.

Perhaps man is (I risk being booted to Pseudoscience for this word, but I can't think of a better analogy) fractal in that the development of a man is on parallel with the development of mankind, and that is the point.
As man grasps the gauntlet of self-determination (upon gaining wisdom and experience) he needs less and less guidance from a "superior" figure (God - the father) and can make decisions on his own.

600 BCE...

Around 600 BCE there was an awakening of man during which mankind started to collectively accept the notion of self determination, and reject the idea of being puppets to the "Gods" of nature.
Zarathustra (627-585 BCE) promulgated the Dualism of Good and Evil,
Lao-Tzu (604-531 BCE) wrote the Tao de Ching,
Confucius (580?-479 BCE) “flaunted his agnosticism”,
Buddha (565-483 BCE) taught a “godless wisdom”,
Xenophanes (550 BCE) criticized Greek polytheism,
Pythagoras (550 BCE) taught sacred geometry and mathematically based science,
Isaiah (550 BCE) taught “the first true monotheism in history”,
Theagenes (525 BCE) “rationalized Homer”, and
Hecataeus (500 BCE) “mocked the Greek myths”.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says, “The prophets were first and foremost teachers of religion, not of ethics. Their supreme concern was the will of God, rather than the rule of righteousness.” However, in the 6th century, B.C.E. Jeremiah and Ezekiel began to emphasize “individual responsibility and sought to restore to the people a sense of personal relationship with God, which they had lost under the impact of pagan influence.” “This was a time of general national disintegration, when religious and social organizations were rapidly breaking up.”

It only progresses from there...
Thucydides (400), Trial of Socrates (399), Plato’s Academy (387), Aristotle (335), Indian Artha-sastra (politically rationalistic), Zhuangzi (mystical idealism), Shang Yang (legalism), Euclid (geometry)...

In Chinese History, 1000 B.C.E. marks the beginning of the Zhou Dynasty, which emphasized very strongly the Emperor’s “mandate of heaven” and “obedience to Gods”. But beginning in 772 B.C.E. in Southern China (and extending until 481 B.C.E.), the so-called “Springs and Autumns Period” began. This consisted of eight lesser periods, when life and limb were cheap, barbaric, and toward the end, “philosophy became more important than war.” This is when Lao Tzu and Confucius had arrived on the scene.

The list goes on and on.

At around 600 BCE mankind had an awakening - people started to preach personal repsonsibility and and start taking an active role in determining their own fate.

OK I am rambling out of control now.
I feel like I am on to something, but there is someting that is keeping it from all falling into place.
I need to step away from it for a bit and let it ferment.
 
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There wasn't any real tree's at all but they were merely representations of "knowledge" and "life"
I did say that I was looking at this as an allegory.

The so called "god" didn't expect humans to access the knowledge tree after his strict instructions. The mighty god was unaware that the humans were been manipulated by the serpert!
Then why was the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil there?
Why did God create it, if he did not want them to eat of it?
 
Evil and unpleasant/bad are not necessarily synonyms. Evil assumes malice.

*************
M*W: I just want to bring up a point about the ancient understanding of "evil." In the context of what is written in the bible, "evil" is represented by "darkness," specifically, the "darkness of night." God (the sun) was with mankind during the light of day, but as sunset came, god had abandoned mankind and darkness prevailed. Ancient man thought darkness was "evil" in that god had "died" for the night, and that is when Lucifer was thought to prevail. (Lucifer being a star who led rebellions of other stars at night). My guess is ancient man looked up and saw comets and meteors in the night sky. Interestingly, the ancient word for the "moon" is "Sin," but I forget the origin just now. Therefore, whatever the words meant then have evolved into what people (christians) believe sin/evil is now, when all it really means is the death of god or "darkness."

Stemming directly from that, you then have the problem of death equating to evil. Death is not evil.

*************
M*W: As I said, "death" as in the "death of the sun" was equated to "evil." As you said, Death is not "evil."

Oh, and when the sun "died" and went "under the Earth," it was believed to go to a place of "darkness" and "evil." When the sun/god was not visible during the night, the "Prince of Darkness" ruled the world.

How innocent the myths were then.
 
I see two problems with this.
First, there is the mixing of terms.
Evil and unpleasant/bad are not necessarily synonyms.
Evil assumes malice.
Morality refers to malicious and benevolent - not pleasant and unpleasant.
Stubbing your toe is certainly unpleasant, however, unless someone purposely places a rock in your path, there is nothing evil about it.

Stemming directly from that, you then have the problem of death equating to evil.
Death is not evil.
bad, unpleasant, wrong, are Synonyms of evil. in every dictionary/thesaurus i've come across, it appears to me you are either playing at semantics or being facetious.
 
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