adam and eve

SnakeLord said:
(such as how anyone not knowing god or evil can be expected to make a 'good' decision)
"Good" is a normative judgment. The moment the norm (or measure) was established (God's command not to eat from the tree), the normative judgment was possible. The positive is what is left after the negative had been determined.
(namely the Enuma Elish - which having been written a good millennia and a half earlier, would be more accurate than the biblical version).
'Earlier' does not necessarily mean 'more accurate' -- that only became (theoretically) possible with more recent methods of observation (empirical methodologies). For instance, would you say Newton's observations about the laws of physics were more accurate than later observations? That is why we have redactions. And in court, we listen to both the material and the expert witnesses. The material eyewitness may explain what happened, the expert may explain what it means.
 
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SnakeLord: Well, it certainly seems to contain some fundamental flaws, (such as how anyone not knowing god or evil can be expected to make a 'good' decision), but there is no position of which to claim this as the conclusion. Not only would the writer of this little story have been very far removed from that time, but it is most certainly based upon other creation stories, (namely the Enuma Elish - which having been written a good millennia and a half earlier, would be more accurate than the biblical version). We'd also have to take into account the vast array of other creation stories that many would say make sense.

Further to which, something making sense doesn't mean it's real. Huckleberry Finn makes sense, but it isn't a factual story. There's no justification to think that people back then were any less creative than people are now, or any less inclined to exaggerate - and making a conclusion on a very little detailed 3-4 page story is, as you might say, 'unwise'.
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M*W: Good points, SnakeLord. Not only was god man-made, but history has also been man-made. Life and times of different civilzations were recorded by man who probably exaggerated or embellished the truth just like they did with their man-made religions.
 
You no what wrong people are totally uniformed the have their side and no matter what their right. Dave if you new anything about evolution you would no how we orginated . TO Silas i was trying to point out that the human race originated in 7 diffent regions hence the 7 different midochondria ill try to find the article.
 
If the story was true, that would mean that cain and able would have to have sex with either their sister or mother.... and then their offspring with relatives as well....

Does this mean we are all retarted and prone to vd?
 
top mosker said:
If the story was true, that would mean that cain and able would have to have sex with either their sister or mother.... and then their offspring with relatives as well....

Does this mean we are all retarted and prone to vd?

I addressed that issue a few posts back.
Here's the post.
 
"Good" is a normative judgment. The moment the norm (or measure) was established (God's command not to eat from the tree), the normative judgment was possible.

According to who? It's most certainly nowhere in the bible, but actually shows that it wasn't until after that either one of them understood what good and evil were - as god says "man has now become like one of us [?] knowing good and evil". He does not say "man has now become like one of us [?] knowing a little bit more about good and evil. Ok he did have some understanding of good and evil before eating from the tree of good and evil, but now he has gained even more knowledge of good and evil". That "more" knowledge of good and evil would obviously be the good and evil concerned with breaking rules.

What you're saying is pointless. I said to my mouse: "Don't eat the cheese". Right there the "measure" had been established, and according to you - it was therefore possible for the mouse to understand what I was saying. Daft notion.

'Earlier' does not necessarily mean 'more accurate'

In this instance it does. Those who were alive during the flood would give a more accurate account of it than some dude several millennia later.

For instance, would you say Newton's observations about the laws of physics were more accurate than later observations?

Newton and physics are irrelevant. Last week a hedgehog polevaulted over the fence in my back garden. If I wrote a story about the event, it would certainly be a lot more accurate that someone writing about it in 2000 years time - namely because I happened to see it whereas he did not, but can only work from handed down accounts which, whether you like it or not, are always subject to exaggerations, distortions of truth and and so on.

Do you understand the difference?
 
good point snakelord:
jenyar: havent we all played Chinese Whispers, you know the game you sit, say in class and whisper something in someones ear, and say pass it on, and when it eventually comes back to you it's something completely different.
 
TheHeretic said:
do christians accually believe that the entire human race started with these two people? I simply don't understand how this is possible. I was recently reading an article about the midochondrian. The midochondria of a cell only share the dna of the mother and nothing of the father. Everyones midochondrial dna is supposed to orginate to 7 diffent orgins around the world. Unless there were 7 differnt adam and eves how is this possible. Also what about genetic mutation. If adam and eve had children then the entire human race would be dependant on their children having intercourse. Result Genetic mutation. Autism for example. I doubt a generation of autistic children could create great civilizations.
I didn't read the whole thread so please forgive me if this has already been asked, but where does the 7 Eves come from?

I thought it had been well established from mitochondrial DNA that there is one common female ancestor for the entire race? -- http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/665

This doesn't confirm (or deny) the idea of a single female progenitor, only that there is a common female ancestor for the entire race.
 
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one_raven said:
I addressed that issue a few posts back.
Here's the post.
As I understand it, we all get two copies of each chromosone, one from the father and one from the mother. Each chromozone is made up of tens of thousands of genes. The problem arises if there is damage in a gene. This is not normally a problem since there are two copies of each gene and the system is self correcting - using the undamaged gene. However, if you have offspring with near kin, the child might get two copies of the same damaged gene - which means trouble. This is less likely (but still not impossible) if you have offspring with a stranger.

As to Cain and Able (and all their siblings and possibly even Adam - he may have had children with one of his daughters - surely Eve didn't have some sixty plus children all by herself) -- we might assume that they had no damaged genes, after all they were made perfect. The damage came later, so there is not really a genetic problem with them having offspring with near kin.
 
mis-t-highs said:
jenyar: havent we all played Chinese Whispers, you know the game you sit, say in class and whisper something in someones ear, and say pass it on, and when it eventually comes back to you it's something completely different.
The Chinese whisper effect happens for many reasons. One of which is that we don't live in an oral culture. Children aren't trained or used to remember anything accurately or at short notice anymore. Most study like parrots and repeat worse than most parrots. Even with the availability of books and papyrus, the spoken word was for long considered superior to the written word, because "history" lay in the wisdom gained from it, the insight and trustworthiness of the observer, and his skill at conveying it -- wisdom and knowledge that could only be securely contained within a living, breathing, thinking person, and taught to personally selected and trained individuals over a period of decades. Chinese whispers rely on children playing a game, where the information is of no importance whatsoever; Religious events and Scripture is and has always been considered of utmost imortance to all involved, and to be guarded, treasured, transmitted and interpreted as often and with as much care and attention as it deserves.

So,
a) A story always starts orally, with the person involved, and he is always the authority
b) If he is satisfied that an account has been transferred accurately, he approves it
c) the approved accounts are copied and preserved with great care (through a canon or library; the "Bible" is both)

This is different than a Chinese whisper in many ways:
a) Chinese whispers start out simple and end up complex -- often as garbage (because no reviewing has taken place)
b) Chinese whispers end up different than the original (i.e, meaning is lost, not preserved)
c) Chinese whispers have identifiable intermediary forms (which can be traced back to the source)

You are comparing the FBI with a fifth-grade birthday party -- which might not be totally unfair, but at the levels of accuracy we're talking about, its not justified.
 
The Chinese whisper effect happens for many reasons. One of which is that we don't live in an oral culture.

Eh? It's worth pointing out that Chinese whispers is much more likely to occur in an oral culture as opposed to one that documents events. Of course, even then man are prone to embellishment and mistake.

Children aren't trained or used to remember anything accurately or at short notice anymore.

With reference to what exactly? Do they not go through years upon years of schooling, with exams in place to check they are trained and do remember accurately?

Most study like parrots and repeat worse than most parrots.

Right then, and having said this, why are you seemingly trying to state that modern day people are more prone to Chinese whispers? The very meaning of "parrot" is one that copies what has been said to them in exactly the same way. That negates 'Chinese whispers'.

Even with the availability of books and papyrus, the spoken word was for long considered superior to the written word

And there is it's downfall. The majority of people could not read or write, and had no alternative but to try to retain facts of a story with all their human frailities: forgetfulness, embellishment, exaggeration, and so on.

While this might seem a relatively easy thing to do, the story told 1,000 or 2,000 years later will never match the original. This is especially so when it is cross culture.

wisdom and knowledge that could only be securely contained within a living, breathing, thinking person, and taught to personally selected and trained individuals over a period of decades.

Securely contained? Oh please, surely you know a little more about mankind than that? As for being selectively taught - this is pure nonsense. Anyone with a mouth had the ability to pass on a story.

Chinese whispers rely on children playing a game, where the information is of no importance whatsoever

The daftest statement yet.

Religious events and Scripture is and has always been considered of utmost imortance to all involved, and to be guarded, treasured, transmitted and interpreted as often and with as much care and attention as it deserves.

And yet today the meaning of those stories differ from person to person, place to place, church to church. While the 'basics' have been retained - even those have morphed themselves over the years.

legend.jpg


(from ffrf.org)

This shows how, given just a small amount of time, a story will be so prone to embellishment, exaggeration and Chinese whispers, that nobody would have the chance of sorting fact from fiction. Now we look 2,000 years later and it's even worse with entire groups of people having completely different ideas as to what happened or didn't happen. It is the inevitable outcome of any story.

It need not be intentionally misleading, a simple mistake will do the job. As an example look at the 'belief' that ostriches stick their heads in sand. They don't. Look at the 'belief' that humans only use 5/10% of their brains. They don't.

Alas it does not take a lot to misguide other humans to such a degree whereby something completely fictional is regarded as complete truth - happily accepted and taught to others.

And with something of this nature, we must look at the intentional changes/additions. Having heard a story from a different culture, one would undoubtedly change the key players. The gods now become a different god, the hero changes, (for instance - how modern day people view jesus as a white guy - which he would not have been. However, it is unlikely any westerner would have jumped into the christian ways if their god was imaged as a middle eastern man).

You ask any person what Santa looks like.. He's a fat guy with red clothes and a white beard. It is nothing more than an embellishment of a traditional figure the way Coca Cola felt like portraying it. Now go back to the original stories concerning this Santa bloke.. That is how easy it is to completely undermine and change a story so it suits a different culture, and a different way of life.

a) A story always starts orally, with the person involved, and he is always the authority

And even then nobody has a way of telling how much embellishment of exaggeration has been included. We all do it. When someone wants to tell a good story, it will most certainly involve a bit of dramatics, exaggeration and embellishment to make that story "come to life".

I could tell you a story of the day my daughter was born. I could do that in 5 words or 50,000 words. It's made worse given that my human brain cannot remember each and every detail, and the things it can remember might be slightly off-key to how it actually was. If I had have videotaped it or written the accounts down at that very moment, there wouldn't be so much of a problem, but these people didn't have that luxury. Someone spoke of an event the way they think it occurred, and then someone else sat down and wrote a second hand account of what they think happened and then 1,000 years later someone else tries - by which time the story has blown all out of proportion.

b) If he is satisfied that an account has been transferred accurately, he approves it

This is nonsense. And the word accurately means very little given the fact that the original story teller is as prone to exaggeration and embellishment just like the rest of us humans. He would still view the story as accurate even with a tonne of additions that his mind created in order to make the story better.

c) the approved accounts are copied and preserved with great care (through a canon or library; the "Bible" is both)

If this is the case, then every single written work is completely valid. From the Enuma Elish to the Mahabharata. So we were actually created by Marduk who slayed Tiamat etc etc etc.

Or are you suggesting that the people you don't know that wrote the biblical accounts told the truth and protected it, while every other culture made up some fallacious bullshit just to please the masses, or just to cheer up the kiddies?

You've dug yourself a gigantic hole.

a) Chinese whispers start out simple and end up complex -- often as garbage (because no reviewing has taken place)

See the image above.

b) Chinese whispers end up different than the original (i.e, meaning is lost, not preserved)

Sumerian creation stories vs the biblical accounts that came along two millennia later.

c) Chinese whispers have identifiable intermediary forms (which can be traced back to the source)

Only if you can round up each of those intermediary forms. However, tracing back to the source can be easy enough, (Sumerian creation accounts vs biblical accounts).

You are comparing the FBI with a fifth-grade birthday party -- which might not be totally unfair, but at the levels of accuracy we're talking about, its not justified.

This statement is simply ludicrous.
 
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Jenyar said:
The Chinese whisper effect happens for many reasons. One of which is that we don't live in an oral culture. Children aren't trained or used to remember anything accurately or at short notice anymore. Most study like parrots and repeat worse than most parrots. Even with the availability of books and papyrus, the spoken word was for long considered superior to the written word, because "history" lay in the wisdom gained from it, the insight and trustworthiness of the observer, and his skill at conveying it -- wisdom and knowledge that could only be securely contained within a living, breathing, thinking person, and taught to personally selected and trained individuals over a period of decades. Chinese whispers rely on children playing a game, where the information is of no importance whatsoever; Religious events and Scripture is and has always been considered of utmost imortance to all involved, and to be guarded, treasured, transmitted and interpreted as often and with as much care and attention as it deserves.

So,
a) A story always starts orally, with the person involved, and he is always the authority
b) If he is satisfied that an account has been transferred accurately, he approves it
c) the approved accounts are copied and preserved with great care (through a canon or library; the "Bible" is both)

This is different than a Chinese whisper in many ways:
a) Chinese whispers start out simple and end up complex -- often as garbage (because no reviewing has taken place)
b) Chinese whispers end up different than the original (i.e, meaning is lost, not preserved)
c) Chinese whispers have identifiable intermediary forms (which can be traced back to the source)

You are comparing the FBI with a fifth-grade birthday party -- which might not be totally unfair, but at the levels of accuracy we're talking about, its not justified.
Josephus, the first century Jewish historian, insists that the traditions contained in Genesis are not oral. Josephus tells us that two great pillars were set up by Adam near the end of his life, to preserve the truth. Adam and Methusalah inscribed the history of the world on these two pillars (two copies) and continued to do so until Methusalah died the year before the Flood. According to Josephus, Moses had access to these pillars and thus had direct writings from the eye-witnesses involved.

Is this all true? We don't know, but then again, we can't rule this out. Josephus, after all, lived during and after the time of Jesus. Josephus claimed to have, in his posession, all the oldest and most sacred texts from Jerusalem. Were the traditions oral or were they written?
 
A few interesting bits on oral culture, in one of its manifestations: epic poetry.
An analysis of the structure and vocabulary of the Iliad and Odyssey shows that the poems consist of regular, repeating phrases; even entire verses repeat. Could the Iliad and Odyssey have been oral-formulaic poems, composed on the spot by the poet using a collection of memorized traditional verses and phases? Milman Parry and Albert Lord pointed out that such elaborate oral tradition, foreign to today's literate cultures, is typical of epic poetry in an exclusively oral culture.
...
In Greek his name is "Homēros" which is Greek for "hostage". There is a theory that his name was back-extracted from the name of a society of poets called the Homēridai, which literally means "sons of hostages", i.e. descendants of prisoners of war. As these men were not sent to war because their loyalty on the battlefield was suspect, they would not get killed in battles. Thus they were entrusted with remembering the area's stock of epic poetry, to remember past events, in the times before literacy came to the area.
...
Research (pioneered by the aforementioned Parry and Lord) into oral epics in Serbo-Croatian and Turkic languages began to convince scholars that long poems could be preserved with consistency by oral cultures until someone bothered to write them down. The decipherment of Linear B in the 1950s by Michael Ventris and others convinced scholars of a linguistic continuity between 13th century BC Mycenaean writings and the epic poems attributed to Homer. -- Wikipedia: Homer
I'll look for specific information on Middle-eastern oral traditions, but in the meanwhile...
A person within a literate culture thus has presuppositions that may falsely affect her judgement of the validity of oral history within preliterate cultures. In these cultures children are usually selected and specially trained for the role of historian, and develop extraordinary memory skills known as eidetic or photographic memory.
--Wikipedia: oral tradition
 
PS, SnakeLord... here's an important consequence of your argument that you might wish to consider.
Snakelord said:
This is nonsense. And the word accurately means very little given the fact that the original story teller is as prone to exaggeration and embellishment just like the rest of us humans. He would still view the story as accurate even with a tonne of additions that his mind created in order to make the story better.
Why do you suppose sources are more trustworthy today -- in a literary culture -- than they were in an oral culture? And if they aren't, what is your argument?
 
Why do you suppose sources are more trustworthy today

Sources of what exactly?

-- in a literary culture -- than they were in an oral culture?

When you have the ability to instantly film or write down events as they happen, chinese whispers will be lowered because people can't really argue with it. However, as I did mention earlier, it does still happen. Can we take every single word in a news report as 100% accurate? Apparently not. The Mirror for example says a particular event happened at 9pm and there were 500 dead, the Sun says 9:30 am and 339 people dead. Even a modern day society that tend to record events often conflict when it comes down to details. Nobody quibbles about the overall event, but the details of it are often skewed.

Going back we are looking at a huge gap between Adam and his biographer, (apparently Moses). How many thousands of years are we talking about? And you somehow think that he got it spot on, over that length of time, working on the handed down stories of others? Not a chance.

But of course, the stories did have a predecessor, (Sumerian texts), and we can clearly see the changes that have occured since then.

As for my mentions of people being prone to exaggeration and embellishment - they still are, and always will be. For instance, you'll see story differences regarding say Iraq if you look at a lefty report versus someone on the right. I wouldn't specifically regard either as more trustworthy to be honest. That doesn't mean I instantly disbelieve there was a war in Iraq, but that the details differ depending upon the writers views, opinions, and the embellishment of "witnesses" and so on.
 
David F. said:
Josephus, the first century Jewish historian, insists that the traditions contained in Genesis are not oral. Josephus tells us that two great pillars were set up by Adam near the end of his life, to preserve the truth. Adam and Methusalah inscribed the history of the world on these two pillars (two copies) and continued to do so until Methusalah died the year before the Flood. According to Josephus, Moses had access to these pillars and thus had direct writings from the eye-witnesses involved.

Is this all true? We don't know, but then again, we can't rule this out. Josephus, after all, lived during and after the time of Jesus. Josephus claimed to have, in his posession, all the oldest and most sacred texts from Jerusalem. Were the traditions oral or were they written?
No, we can quite definitely rule it all out. All this discussion back and forth is a storm in a teacup, really. Mankind existed for at least ten times as many generations without writing as it did with it. The "real" Adam and Eve were not able to write anything down. Neither is it remotely likely that the original oral tale which eventually became "our" Genesis is related to whatever the original tale of origin may have been; undoubtedly origin myths grew up, peaked in popularity and then died many times over the dozens of millennia mankind has existed. And there is no more reason to believe that story of the "two pillars" than there is remotely any reason to believe that there ever existed any men who lived into their tenth century.
 
Eve and Adam as written about in Hebrew mythology were a RIP OFF from much more ancient Goddess mythology where 'EVE' is Goddess and Adamah is her Son/Lover, and as Campbell shows with illustrations in his 'Masks of God' volume, Occidental Mythology, they origanlly sat under tyhe Tree, and the tree's sacred fruit was offered FREELY and without guilt to whomever wanted it for spiritual and ecstatic inspiration
The Hebrew myth DEMONIZES this freedom as it simultaneously demonizes Goddess

NOW, we aren't to know good and evil, for it is 'God'/male authority who DICTATE what is 'good' and what is 'evil'

They also forbid us from going even NEAr the 'Tree of Life' by setting to bouncer-angels with flaming swords to guard it.....and THEN if all that's not fukin bad enough, we get guilted for even BEING!.....this is patriarchy in action. and it still continues
 
goodness!!

the traditional jewish viewpoint is that G-d created humans, and THEN created Adam. he was to be the first man that understood humanity's purpose.

the bible (not clearly) can be used to support MANY scientific facts, such as the 14 billion year age of the universe. i am a jew, and i am an evolutionist. i also believe in one source of creation, and think that science and religion cannot ultimately contradict eachother. perhaps the debate is pointless? does it matter what/who came first? the fact is: we are here, and we should live our lives according to what we believe to be correct.
 
The Devil Inside said:
the fact is: we are here, and we should live our lives according to what we believe to be correct.

Not what we believe is correct, but what is correct.
 
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