Absolutely Nothing: Atheists on What They Know About What They Pretend to Discuss

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https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evograms_02
What are evograms?

Evograms are diagrams that convey information about how a group of organisms and their particular features evolved. The figure below is an evogram. Evograms contain a lot of information, so they cannot be easily digested in a few seconds. However, they are worth understanding because they convey information from several different lines of evidence and are particularly useful in showing students the logic, strength, and testability of evolutionary hypotheses.

The evogram below concerns the origin of terrestrial vertebrates. In a separate section we'll explain more details about this example. Here we just want to show you how evograms are organized.
tetrapod_evo.jpg

much more at link......
 
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evograms_06
The origin of birds:

The discovery that birds evolved from small carnivorous dinosaurs of the Late Jurassic was made possible by recently discovered fossils from China, South America, and other countries, as well as by looking at old museum specimens from new perspectives and with new methods. The hunt for the ancestors of living birds began with a specimen of Archaeopteryx, the first known bird, discovered in the early 1860s. Like birds, it had feathers along its arms and tail, but unlike living birds, it also had teeth and a long bony tail. Furthermore, many of the bones in Archaeopteryx's hands, shoulder girdles, pelvis, and feet were distinct, not fused and reduced as they are in living birds. Based on these characteristics, Archaeopteryx was recognized as an intermediate between birds and reptiles; but which reptiles?
bird_evo.jpg


more at link..............
archaeopteryx.jpg

The Berlin specimen of Archaeopteryx lithographica.

sinosaurop2.jpg

This fossil of Sinosauropteryx preserves evidence of hair-like feathers
 
And finally.......
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evograms_07
The emergence of humans:

The narratives of human evolution are oft-told and highly contentious. There are major disagreements in the field about whether human evolution is more like a branching tree or a crooked stick, depending partly on how many species one recognizes. Interpretations of almost every new find will be sure to find opposition among other experts. Disputes often center on diet and habitat, and whether a given animal could walk bipedally or was fully upright. What can we really tell about human evolution from our current understanding of the phylogenetic relations of hominids and the sequence of evolution of their traits?
hominid_evo.jpg

To begin with, let's take a step back. Although the evolution of hominid features is sometimes put in the framework of "apes vs. humans," the fact is that humans are apes, just as they are primates and mammals. A glance at the evogram shows why. The other apes — chimp, bonobo, gorilla, orangutan, gibbon — would not form a natural, monophyletic group (i.e., a group that includes all the descendants of a common ancestor) — if humans were excluded. Humans share many traits with other apes, and those other "apes" (i.e., non-human apes) don't have unique features that set them apart from humans. Humans have some features that are uniquely our own, but so do gorillas, chimps, and the rest. Hominid evolution should not be read as a march to human-ness (even if it often appears that way from narratives of human evolution). Students should be aware that there is not a dichotomy between humans and apes. Humans are a kind of ape.

Virtually all systematists and taxonomists agree that we should only give names to monophyletic groups. However, this evogram shows that this guideline is not always followed. For an example, consider Australopithecus. On the evogram you can see a series of forms, from just after Ardipithecus to just before Homo in the branching order, that are all called Australopithecus. (Even Paranthropus is often considered an australopithecine.) But as these taxa appear on the evogram, "Australopithecus" is not a natural group, because it is not monophyletic: some forms, such as A. africanus, are found to be closer to humans than A. afarensis and others. Beyond afarensis, for example, all other Australopithecus and Homo share "enlarged cheek teeth and jaws," because they have a more recent common ancestor. Eventually, several of these forms will have to have new genus names if we want to name only monophyletic groups. Students should avoid thinking of "australopithecines" as a natural group with uniquely evolved traits that link its members together and set it apart from Homo. Instead they should focus on the pattern of shared traits among these species and the Homo clade, recognizing that each species in this lineage gains more and more features that are shared by Homo.

In popular fiction and movies, the concept of the wild "ape-man" is often that of a tree-living, vine-swinging throwback like Tarzan. However, the pantheon of hominids is much richer than this, as the evogram shows with forms as different as Paranthropus and Ardipithecus shows. For example, imagine going back in time to the common ancestor of humans and chimps (including bonobos). What did that common ancestor look like? In the Origin of Species Darwin noted that the extinct common ancestor of two living forms should not be expected to look like a perfect intermediate between them. Rather, it could look more like one branch or the other branch, or something else entirely.

Did the common ancestor of humans and chimps conform to the ape-man myth and live in the trees, swinging from vines? To answer this, we have to focus not only on anatomy but on behavior, and we have to do it in a phylogenetic context. Apes such as the gibbon and orangutan, which are more distantly related to humans, are largely arboreal (i.e., tree-living). The more closely related apes such as the gorilla and chimps are relatively terrestrial, although they can still climb trees. The feet of the first hominids have a considerable opposition of the big toe to the others but relatively flat feet, as arboreal apes generally do. But other features of their skeleton, such as the position of the foramen magnum underneath the skull, the vertically shortened and laterally flaring hips, and the larger head of the femur, suggest that they were not just mainly terrestrial but habitually bipedal, unlike their knuckle-walking relatives. Most evidence suggests that the hominid lineage retained some of the anatomical features related to arboreal life and quadrupedal gait even after it had evolved a more terrestrial lifestyle and a bipedal gait. There is no fossil record of these behaviors, but the balance of the available evidence supports the hypothesis that the hominid ancestor was terrestrial and bipedal.

Much discussion in human paleontology surrounds the evolution of a bipedal, upright stance. When and why did this occur? One thing to keep in mind is that "bipedal" and "upright" are not equivalent terms. An animal can be bipedal without having a vertical backbone (think T. rex). It seems clear from the fossil record of hominids that habitual bipedality preceded the evolution of a recurved spine and upright stance. Other changes in the gait, such as how the relatively "splayed" gait of chimps evolved into the gait of humans, who put one foot directly in front of the other, involve studying the hip joint, the femur, and the foot. The famous Laetoli footprints attributed to Australopithecus afarensis are bipedal, but they are still relatively splayed compared to the tracks of living humans.

Another extremely interesting feature in hominid evolution is the degree of sexual dimorphism (i.e., physical differences between the sexes) in different species. Sexual dimorphism is linked to features of sociality and mate competition in many sorts of animals. To understand the evolution of this feature in humans, which have relatively low sexual dimorphism, we need to consider the other apes, in which sexual dimorphism tends to be moderate to high (with exceptions). We don't have sufficient evidence about Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, and Ardipithecus to understand much about sex differences in these species, but we do know that A. afarensis had relatively high sexual dimorphism: the males were considerably larger than the females. The difference seems to have been less in A. africanus, Paranthropus, and most of the Homo lineage. The evolutionary explanation for A. afarensis' dimorphism is not entirely clear. The larger males may have used their size to attract females and/or repel rivals, which would fit with an explanation based on sexual selection. Or the males and females may have been differently sized because they played different roles in their groups, the males hunting and gathering and the females caring for the young. Darwin thought that this differentiation of the sexes may have played a critical role in human evolution, but we simply do not know much about the role of this feature in A. afarensis. Some, all, or none of these functions may have been in play.

We do know that by the time the animals known as Homo evolved, they could make tools, and their hands were well suited for complex manipulations. These features were eventually accompanied by the reduction of the lower face, particularly the jaws and teeth, the recession of the brow, the enlargement of the brain, the evolution of a more erect posture, and the evolution of a limb more adapted for extended walking and running (along with the loss of arboreally oriented features). The evogram shows the hypothesized order of acquisition of these traits. Yet each of the Homo species was unique in its own way, so human evolution should not be seen as a simple linear progression of improvement toward our own present-day form.
 
extract from above scientific article......
"the fact is that humans are apes, just as they are primates and mammals"

Jan!!!You're a bloody Ape...get used to it!!:D:D:D
 
Humans share many traits with other apes, and those other "apes" (i.e., non-human apes) don't have unique features that set them apart from humans. Humans have some features that are uniquely our own, but so do gorillas, chimps, and the rest. Hominid evolution should not be read as a march to human-ness (even if it often appears that way from narratives of human evolution). Students should be aware that there is not a dichotomy between humans and apes. Humans are a kind of ape.
There is one MAJOR dichotomy between humans and the other great apes. An evolutionary mutation which separated humans from our common ancestor and was the beginning of the homo sapiens branch.
Hominids continued to evolve and develop unique characteristics. Their brain capacities increased, and approximately 2.3 million years ago, a hominid known as Homo habilis began to make and use simple tools. By a million years ago, some hominid species, particularly Homo erectus, began to migrate out of Africa and into Eurasia, where they began to make other advances like controlling fire.
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...-early-societies/a/where-did-humans-come-from

If the above is correct, this human mutation must have occurred some time before 2.3 (above) million years ago and was the probable cause for the development of a larger, more complex brain than our non-mutated cousins.

The mutation which is the undisputable mark of the emergence of homo sapiens is the fusion of two chromosomes in one of our hominid ancestors, resulting in the single larger human chromosome2 which marks a clear split of homo sapiens from the continued evolution of our non-mutated ancestor into the modern great apes.

This is near absolute proof because only humans have one less chromosome pair (23) than our other great ape cousins (24). This the single unmistakable difference between our species.

Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Introduction
All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.
The Evidence
Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:
1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2. (1)
2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has on its ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the ancestral chromosomes fused. (2)
3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence, telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) is exactly what we would expect from a fusion. (3)
4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expect to find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.
5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with the chimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.
6) At the place where we would expect it on the human chromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere (4).
Not only is this strong evidence for a fusion event, but it is also strong evidence for common ancestry; in fact, it is hard to explain by any other mechanism.....more
hum_ape_chrom_2.gif

Conclusion

The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor's chromosomes is overwhelming.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm[/quote]
 
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In my model the inflationary epoch was unrestricted because for that incredibly small instant space was expanding in a totally permittive prior condition, without any mathematical physical control functions until a treshold of free expansion was reached by the cooling of the energetic plasma and space acquired density and the universal mathematical functions (constants) emerged.

Is this your model in the sense that you created it or in the sense you have adopted it?

Your reasoning is persuasive although my expressed concerns remain.

Why have an inflationary epoch at all?

What observations were drawn upon to first arrive at the hypothesis and when The Theory of Inflation was presented did it meet the requirements of a scientific theory?

I am curious to know about falsifiability, observations and prediction.

I love to cite H2O to demonstrate the wonderful emergent properties that become expressed by the formation of different specific patterns using the very same ingredients.
A collection of H2O molecules are fluid, until a treshold temperature is reached where the molecular pattern becomes more dense until @ -1 C it loses fluidity altogether and becomes solid ice.

I see a similar progression happening directly after the BB. First, unrestricted expansion (inflation). Second, a rapid cooling of the expanding space until space acquired sufficient density, Third, a slowing down of the expansion down to the universal mathematical functional constants we can observe today and the self-formation of measurable spacetime emerging from the chaos .

I could imagine that you find such an interpretation appealing but is there any parrallel to be inferred from the behaviour of water and the stuff we deal with in the inflationary epoch given the forces and structures involved in your water example it seems had yet to appear...but that would only be one aspect of concern it seems.

Alex
 
Imaginary pictures, and testimony, isn’t science. You’ve yet to explain how whale evolution is a fact, and not just an elaborate idea.
I see you are up for another severe crushing Jan I think you actually enjoy the experience given the many times you line yourself up and call out "crush me crush me crush me" figuratively speaking. No doubt as I read the latest posts I will witness yet another severe crushing.

Alex
 
You are assuming that whale evolution is science.
Not assuming anything.

Radioisotope dating is science, even if you don't understand it.
Comparative anatomy is science, even if you don't understand it.
Molecular clocks are science, even if you don't understand them.
DNA sequencing is science, even if you don't understand it.

All of them support cetacean evolution.
Just listing a ranger scientific practices does not explain how whale evolution is a scientific fact, and not just an elaborate idea, where results are made to fit the idea.
Do you believe that nuclear submarines exist? Their existence is also supported by science that you likely don't understand. Are they just an elaborate idea, where results are made to fit the idea?
 
Is this your model in the sense that you created it or in the sense you have adopted it?
I'm not sure. It is my own interpretation of bits and pieces I have read, but it undoubtedly has been proposed before I imagined it.
Your reasoning is persuasive although my expressed concerns remain.
Understandably, I have not sufficient knowledge to present proof other than a logical deduction of what I understand is "common knowledge" about the BB.
Why have an inflationary epoch at all?
OK. This is the crux of the matter.
All known science of universal mathematical /physical laws and constants are based on the observed properties and mathematical functions of this universal spacetime fabric and geometry. But that all came after the birth our universe and does not say anything about the properties and potentials of the pre-BB condition. I am assuming that the pre-BB condition was a timeless purely permittive condition of pure potential, precisely because spacetime with its restrictive mathematical/physical properties had not formed yet.
IOW, there was no restriction of any kind, including the spacetime restriction of "c". It was a timeless permittive condition of pure potential (David Bohm) (see continuation).

AFAIK, there is no compelling reason why we should assign any mathematical limitations to the pre-BB condition. The limitations of "c" is a spacetime phenomonon. No spacetime, no "c".
Therefore, there existed no mathematical restrictions preventing the initial instant from expanding at any speed generated by that first mega-quantum event releasing all the energy of our current universe. The evidence seems to confirm that, no? That is why we call it the inflationary epoch, apart from the subsequent spacetime expansion and all the values and functions associated with spacetime.
What observations were drawn upon to first arrive at the hypothesis and when The Theory of Inflation was presented did it meet the requirements of a scientific theory?
My model is based on the assumption that prior to the BB there were no functional restrictions of any kind. All that came after the Inflationary epoch and the emergent self-ordering spacetime fabric, along with its mathematical properties and functions.
I am curious to know about falsifiability, observations and prediction.
I would argue that in view of the lack of any method of falsification, the logic might stand on its own merit? It does not invoke any magical interventions.
I could imagine that you find such an interpretation appealing but is there any parrallel to be inferred from the behaviour of water and the stuff we deal with in the inflationary epoch given the forces and structures involved in your water example it seems had yet to appear...but that would only be one aspect of concern it seems.
Alex
That analogy was merely illustrative of known and testable emergent properties of the same constituent particles, arranged in different patterns. This analogy is actually used by Tegmark in his lecture about consciousness being a mathematical pattern.
I used it only to illustrate the possible emergent spacetime patterns and their mathematical/physical properties after the inflationary epoch, but not necessarily before. Sufficient spacetime density to exhibit the emergence of the mathematical restriction of "c"
 
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continuation,
"A great many people think they are thinking , when they are merely rearranging their prejudices" David Bohm.

David Bohm and The Holographic Universe:
While working on plasmas at the Lawrence Radiation laboratory in California in the 1940s, Bohm noticed that once electrons were in a plasma (which has a high density of electrons and positive ions), they stopped behaving like individual particles and started behaving like a unit. It seemed as if the sea of electrons was somehow alive. He thought then that there was a deeper cause behind the random nature of the subatomic world.
His initial concept of an "Implicate order"
Bohm came up with an idea of the quantum potential to suggest that subatomic particles are highly complex, dynamic entities that follow a precise path which is determined by subtle forces. In his view the quantum potential pervades all space and guides the motion of particles by providing information about the whole environment.
For Bohm, all of reality was a dynamic process in which all manifest objects are in a state of constant flux. By introducing the concepts of “implicate order” and “explicate order”, Bohm argued that the empty space in the universe contained the whole of everything. It is the source of explicate order, the order of the physical world, and is a realm of pure information. From it, the physical, observable phenomena unfold, and again, return to it. This unfolding of the explicit order from the subtle realm of the implicate order, and the movement of all matter in terms of enfolding and unfolding, is what Bohm called the Holomovement.
https://futurism.com/david-bohm-and-the-holographic-universe

Of course this is his concept of a post-BB universe. In another lecture he does address an intial state of "pure chaotic potential". I am not sure if that implies a pre-BB or a post-BB condition. Maybe the inflationary epoch?
 
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extract from above scientific article......
"the fact is that humans are apes, just as they are primates and mammals"

Jan!!!You're a bloody Ape...get used to it!!:D:D:D
We can actually learn a thing ot two from the Bonobo chimpanzee, the most peaceful of all the great apes.
 
I'm not sure. It is my own interpretation of bits and pieces I have read, but it undoubtedly has been proposed before I imagined it.

I find your reply most curious but it seems you are not working with a specific model but with your general understanding...which is really what we all do if we are not Alan Guth.

Understandably, I have not sufficient knowledge to present proof other than a logical deduction of what I understand is "common knowledge" about the BB.

I suppose my point is that if we entertain the possibility of momentum and assume that creating space met no resistance we could reasonably expect there to be no slow down after the doubling was complete. Moreover one must wonder why the inflation epoch ended other than to fit the next part of the model. Change in temperature or indeed pressure one could think would not play any part in a change in the rate of inflation or indeed expansion given we are dealing with space and it's apparent creation...which raises an interesting aspect...is it that space is being created or was space somehow contained in that original state, that I will casually call the singularity, even though it is not well described that way.

All known science of universal mathematical /physical laws and constants are based on the observed properties and mathematical functions of this universal spacetime fabric and geometry. But that all came after the birth our universe and does not say anything about the properties and potentials of the pre-BB condition.
I am assuming that the pre-BB condition was a timeless purely permittive condition of pure potential, precisely because spacetime had not formed yet.
IOW, there was no restriction of any kind, including the spacetime restriction of "c". Before the BB, spacetime and it's mathematical properties and potentials did not yet exist! It was a timeless permittive condition of pure potential (David Bohm) see continuation.
AFAIK, there is no compelling reason why we should assign any mathematical limitations to the pre-BB condition.
The limitations of "c" is a spacetime phenomonon. No spacetime, no "c".
Therefore, there existed no mathematical restrictions preventing the initial instant from expanding at any speed generated by that first mega-quantum event releasing all the energy of our current universe. The evidence seems to conform that, no? That is why we call it the inflationary epoch, apart from the subsequent spacetime expasion and all the values and functions associated with spacetime.

I was ready to answer the reply I expected ( don't ask a question unless you know the answer) but you presented nothing that I expected.

I don't wish to appear dismissive however for now that is all I can do.

There are many aspects of your reply that I could review and offer comment however I must encourage you to give the answer I expected.

Please think about my question.

As I recall, without looking to confirm my exact words, I asked why do we need the inflationary epoch...it is covered by the Theory of Inflation I believe a seemingly special theory somewhat separate from that which went before it...or from another approach...what was Alan Ruth about ...what was his motivation to work upon his theory...why did he develop his hypothesis?

My model is based on the assumption that prior to the BB there were no functional restrictions of any kind.

That maybe an unfounded assumption, well of course it is, but let's go with it...and when done we can assume that some fundamental restrictions would have been in place perhaps to manage the hypothesis relating to quantum foam.

I would argue that the lack of any method of falsification, the logic might stand on its own merit?

Lack of falsification indeed leaves us with mere logic and logic is not something that can readily agreed upon.

But what I was seeking was your view as to the question I will now set out so as to be clear...can we call the Theory of Inflation a scientific theory?

Does it meet the requirements of a scientific theory or is it something less than that?

That analogy was merely illustrative of known and testable emergent properties of the same constituent particles, arranged in different patterns. This analogy is actually used by Tegmark in his lecture about .
I used it only to illustrate the possible emergent spacetime patterns and their mathematical/physical properties after the inflationary epoch.

I am not a scientist but I would expect that a scientist would find anology just as useless as I do in matters where we can apply exact description.

Anology is dangerous.
Think... Big Bang..oh I get it says everyone...and imagine a explosion. Would you call any part of the big bang "a explosion".
I haven't seen Tredmark but I think I may be disappointed if he resorts to anology.

I think as a general observation what we must remember is when we try to glimpse those early events we do so moving well past observation and although we have CBR it does not take us past a point...and perhaps past that point we need to be more critical of the logic we employ.

Alex
 
Isn’t that the underlying purpose of communication?
You asked if I hoped for something beyond that purpose. Why?
People ridicule you incessantly in these threads - not sure it's worth it for some ''banter''. It would seem to the outsider looking in, that you hold out hope that your viewpoint will at least be ''heard.'' (which it isn't...at all, by this bunch)

I just wondered if you were looking for something...more. But, fair enough. Banter, it is.
 
continuation
Bohm argued that the empty space in the universe contained the whole of everything.

I think he is close but I see just a little different...my statement, although clumbsy, which few can grasp can be the only realty ...through any point a part of everything passes, and there is not one point in the universe where such is not so.
Alex
 
As I recall, without looking to confirm my exact words, I asked why do we need the inflationary epoch...it is covered by the Theory of Inflation I believe a seemingly special theory somewhat separate from that which went before it...or from another approach...what was Alan Ruth about ...what was his motivation to work upon his theory...why did he develop his hypothesis?
As well accepted as the BB was, there was still a couple of nagging unlexplained problems....homogenious and flatness of the observable universe, which Inflation seems to iron out.
 
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