Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
No close enough Melbourne is only a couple of days drive from here.
Alex
Absolutely Nothing: Atheists on What They Know About What They Pretend to Discuss
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Alex
You have several times now been provided with descriptions of one or more of the ways Darwinian theory was and has been tested - and tested quite thoroughly, over more than a century of research by tens of thousands of biologists and other professionals in their fields. Why do you think these ways do not exist?
Evolution itself - the phenomenon Darwinian theory explains and makes comprehensible - has been observed everywhere and over eons. For a long time there was no good theory of it - the matter had baffled the best minds of human societies since before writing had been invented. That's one reason Darwin is buried in Westminster Abbey in the company of Isaac Newton and the like - he answered questions that had been hanging unanswered since the dawn of human civilization.
Iirc no particular speed or rate is mentioned in his formulation of it. Define "slow".
He wouldn't have had to. All the discoveries since his time have fit into his theory just fine.
I think this weird term "Darwinism" is confusing its employers. It seems to have no meaning, but rather stand in for a set of erroneous assumptions about a variety of disparate things. And it seems to be unnecessary - we have terms for all the relevant concepts afaik.
What's it for?
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Slow , billions , millions of years , hundreds of thousands of years
What discoveries have proved Darwins theories .
Once Darwin found out about epigenetics , he would have added it to his thinking upon evolution .
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We have seen it happen in tens of years due to anthropogenic pressures, and tens of thousands of years for natural pressures.
Pakicetus -> whale evolution. (as recorded in the fossil record.)
Since he didn't even know about genetics, that's a pretty absurd assumption.
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious . . . .Hate, like stupidity, is a terrible thing river. I feel for you!
Just one question, why are you banned from the sciences?
Xelasnave.1947
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I found something that is short and sweet for members who are becoming frustrated with Jan to remind them of the insummountable hurdle we face with creationist and why we have no chance of them accepting anything that goes against their belief.
Look at the facts we have given to Jan ...his response affirms the proposition that facts can not win against belief.
The last part of the video references someone who knows the facts and it is interesting to hear that story and remember it when trying to understand Jan.
Alex
Look at the facts we have given to Jan ...his response affirms the proposition that facts can not win against belief.
The last part of the video references someone who knows the facts and it is interesting to hear that story and remember it when trying to understand Jan.
Alex
He would have thought upon epigenetics because epigenetics changes your genetic expression . Environment matters ; not only in the long term but short term as well .
Certainly not billions, in Darwin's time. Well. probably not. Darwin thought it was older than the physicists thought it was, but "billions" would have been a stretch.
The age of the earth does not fix the rate of evolution, however. The question was about the rate of evolution.
? How does a discovery "prove" a theory?
No doubt he would have been happy to have a mechanism of inheritance, the weak spot of his theory at the time - but his theory works with a wide variety of mechanisms. People designing circuits for AI via Darwinian processes often use manipulation of electrical charge.
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A disgrace to the human species...well said.
My thoughts on Dawkins were at one time, that he was too abrasive in his attitude, but I now understand that I was simply comparing him with the more subtle, gentle winning ways of Carl Sagan. Dawkins says it as it is and takes no prisoners.
ps: We need to be careful, we now have river [that bastion of one liner gobblydook and word salad] as well as our friend Jan spruiking nonsense!!
I realise a lot of things about you...being right isn't one of them.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
ps: We need to be careful, we now have river [that bastion of one liner gobblydook and word salad] as well as our friend Jan!!
River does not bother me.
His failure at his end of the conversation is he does not accept any responsibility to ensure he communicates clearly such that the recipient receives the transmission, I presume in an attempt to sound wise at best or at worst he just does not understand how communication works.
"It is what it is" becomes the only self talk that one needs to remember to avoid becoming un necessarily frustrated when trying to talk to some folk.
I have found dealing with Jan beneficial as he has caused me to open my eyes and look at the folk who represent the cult like Ray Comfort and Copeland and actually take a little time to observe their deluded behaviour.
The alarming thing I find is the common propensity of these supposedly "moral folk" to blatantly lie, both to themselves and to others.
If they had something you could think they would not need to lie ever.
Now as you know I am neither an atheist nor a theist and am happy to rely upon our infallible science to provide answers that do not require holding together with lies and deception.
I think it is interesting how apparently many kids from religious families in the US when they get to uni wake up and reject the nonsense with which they have been indoctrinated and turn to science for the correct answers and happily science delivers without lies deception or suppression of rational logic.
Further take Jan for example, he seems like a nice enough chap and presumably intelligent enough to review material rationally but he is just incapable of doing so ...that is so hard for us to understand.
I don't know what keeps them imprisoned but guess it must be a promise of something after death and fear of hell.
Also they are un natural in their approach to sex as they see pre marital sex as a sin when in truth it is just a natural behaviour... imagine if you took it to what would seem a logical conclusion..before you put the bull over the cow you would need to get them married.
The big problem for creationist is "The devil is in their detail" ( maybe that's why they can not explain the detail as they can't go there) and just don't seem to appreciate 90 percent plus of all species are now extinct... now that firstly does not say much for the intelligence of their designer..imagine you have an architect that designed houses with only 2 percent that did not collapse...further I find they can not explain just how their mythical god created all species at more or less one point in time...Look at Ken Hams ark...his approach is to have humans riding dinosaurs..I mean is there any point trying to reason with folk like that..well the answer is a big no..reason is not in their tool kit..they don't know of their inability.
And while I am at it..their constant use of metaphor is just so tiresome...imagine a science paper riddled with metaphor..so useless and vague such that prediction could not be made.
The reliance on metaphor reveals a child like approach to their expression that I find annoying....and more annoying still is when they use metaphor they think they are sounding wise...the reality is the opposite.
Alex
Me neither, other then a great laugh...the atomic war on Mars between two Alien species was funnier then a Three Stooges episode. Perhaps I have heard too much of his type of regurgitated nonsense over the years, to be able to take the "sympathy" approach you have...kudos for that.
Anyway, another nice post Alex, consisting of wisdom, humour, and facts, with just a hint of facetiousness.
Here's how that conversation would have gone:
River - "Epigenetics changes genetic expression! It's important you know that!"
Darwin - "Uh OK. What's genetics?"
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
What else can you extend but sympathy when you realise Jans inability to employ reason is the final result of presumably a combination of indoctrination and fear of death, fear of hell and an unfortunate belief that some unevidenced continuation of existence awaits.
Add to that the confusion of a terrible imposition of guilt relating to natural desire for sexual relations and the mind destroying repetition that you as a human are unworthy I find my sympathy is replaced with compassionate pity.
We can find Jan frustrating because to us reason is available and we just do not understand his indoctrination has destroyed all ability to reason and as he seems intelligent we assume the employment of reason is available to him whereas the reality is reason has been crushed out of him.
And Jan I know I am being rude discussing you like some sort of lab rat but I do so to help folk understand how difficult it must be for one crushed by fear, confused by denying natural instinct, and not allowed, on pain of eternal torment, to employ simple reason to determine they are the victim of an evil con job.
I know you will reject my sympathy and indeed my pity as your brain washing has left you devoid of rational thinking in assessing scripture and history.
It boils down to this ...there is a choice between the anonymous writings of unqualified ancients making unsupported claims you elevate higher than their evidence dictates and the writings of modern humans, all presenting their names and qualifications to present their observations upon reality in a manner we call the scientific method...which is a short way of saying evidence backed material, supported by observation and evidence that sets out methods of testing via prediction of future results...
Interestingly prediction is a solid method of testing all ideas and even scripture employs prediction via prophecy.
And when one compares scientific prediction with prophecy from scripture one realises that religious prophesy is so incredibly vague it can be employed to justify any occurrence one can present such it is meaningless in application. Scientific prediction gives exact results that one can check without wondering if the prediction was about anything other than what is set out in the prediction. Look up sigma to appreciate the level of exactness science demands.
Ironically you demand so much of science that if you made the same demands of scripture you could only conclude scripture is incredibly useless.
Alex
Gee that's a wise, logical, sensible statement Alex.
I may at this time offer Jan an olive branch. I'll cut out the insulting remarks as long as you do also, and try acting more genuine and sensible, and not be burdened by any need to defend your deity.
Perhaps you need take a leaf out of the book of the paleontologist from the link you gave...a self confessed christian that accepts the evidence and the consequences of that evidence.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Hi River
I hope you are well.
You don't know what a pleasure it is for me to find you contributing meaningfully to this thread.
I agree with your observation, well for my part at least.
Maybe you can take up where Jan has left off while he recovers from a severe crushing.
Certainly when engaging in the area of make believe I am somewhat at a loss as I confine my observation to things that are merely established by the casual scientific method..you know relying on theories and all that fancy book learning. Whereas you and Jan it seems are privey to some higher mystical understanding that is beyond me.
Now that you are here could I seek your higher wisdom and ask for you to reveal your higher understanding of how we have such a diversity of species and why it seems that some 98% of species that have existed on our wonderful, created by a mystical unevidenced entity, planet appear to be now extinct.
Does that mean the designer runs many proto types to find the best species?
And please one of your wise and mystical answers, that will have us all bathing in your grandness, to show us unfortunate underlings the path to truth and understanding which no doubt is within your grasp...
I know..the last answer you gave me was..."fuck off" which although succinct had hidden meaning that I still am trying to fathom. And I get a laugh imagining pogo sticking "off" horizontal to the ground on an erect penis...is that what you had in mind?
Are you ok? I hope life has been good to you...I read all your posts and see, rather I think I see, a great mind merely playing with folk without showing your total magnificence.
We all await your next profound utterance oh wise one.
Alex
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