A Sincere Cry For An Answer

[David F.]

Avatar: try reading "the book of Job" in bible
*************
M*W: What good would come from reading the lies in Job? When will you people ever learn that there is no truth in the Bible?

Really?

So should I murder, commit adultery, steal?

Is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", False?

Surely it's OK to "Love thy neighbor as thyself"?

You can't really mean no truth do you?

 

[c20H25N3o]

c20H25n3o: Although your analogy is highly flawed, I'll respond to it anyway.



This part is irrelevant. It goes even more against god if he has made such a distinction by this point. Further to which, the rich brother would have been Abel who dealt with livestock as opposed to apples and potatoes.



This part is irrelevant because there is no justification for any of it. It does not say Cain did terrible things, it merely says he tilled the soil whereas Abel was a shepherd.



I would consider them awful parents, and although I might prefer one specific gift - the same gratitude and love would be showed to both of my brothers. Maybe it's different wherever you come from, but in my country we have manners.

Besides, this is also flawed, in that both brothers actually brought what they produced. Abel who worked with animals bought a dead animal, while Cain who worked with fruit, bought fruit.

If one of my brothers who worked for a car company brought me a car, and the other brother who worked for a toy shop bought me a tamagotchi, I could not "discipline" one of them for bringing me something I didn't like- or if I did, it would be plain as day that I'm a complete asshole.



god has parents? Obviously you'd mean who pleased me, and I could only say "both", in that they'd both brought me their produce, neither had forgotten to do so, and even if I preferred one present over the other, it would not in any way mean anger shown at one of them. If I did that, I'd be an asshole.



Neither.



"Shit, you're bad parents". Or failing that, he could just say what they said: "It's the thought that counts".



We all have particular tastes, and as such one would be our favourite present. This doesn't mean we show anger to the other brother because his present is inferior, unless of course we're mannerless assholes.

Now you reveal yourself! I am talking in nothing but terms of the 'spirit of giving' to make a point about the attitude of the 'giver' whereas you just want to prove that Christianity is a load of bunkem and that God doesn't have parents - what rubbish! You do not even pay attention to the text!
Are you truly saying that the thought and trouble taken by the brother you were 'closer' too didnt mean any more to you than the wayward selfish brother who just stuck what he had in his pocket in an envelope?
How wicked of you that you did not appreciate the extra effort shown by that brother that you were closer too!
Stop trying to 'prove' me wrong and pay attention! You might learn something!

 

[Michael]

This is a sincere cry for an answer!

Ken, the answer is simple, there is no God.

It’s just a story used to keep people in line. Much like the Santa Clause story is used to keep children in line. There’s no difference really. Only in the case of children they’re smart enough to know that they better get something real (aka a present at x-mass) and for some reason adults seem satisfied to get their present after they’re dead

kind of funny huh?

So in short, if you can deal with it, you’ll find that once you accept there is no afterlife (much as that sucks) you’ll be rewarded with a different sort of “mental” freedom and never have to worry about “Why is this God creature so crazy?” questions again. But, if living out of the matrix is to much, then just know the Bible is quite a bit faulty and maybe Buddhism will be more enlightening for you?

Cheers
MII

 

[c20H25N3o]

Ken, the answer is simple, there is no God.

It’s just a story used to keep people in line. Much like the Santa Clause story is used to keep children in line. There’s no difference really. Only in the case of children they’re smart enough to know that they better get something real (aka a present at x-mass) and for some reason adults seem satisfied to get their present after they’re dead

kind of funny huh?

So in short, if you can deal with it, you’ll find that once you accept there is no afterlife (much as that sucks) you’ll be rewarded with a different sort of “mental” freedom and never have to worry about “Why is this God creature so crazy?” questions again. But, if living out of the matrix is to much, then just know the Bible is quite a bit faulty and maybe Buddhism will be more enlightening for you?

Cheers
MII

What rubbish!

Sarcastic Voice :

Yes Ken, come on m8, accept you are gonna die and be eaten by worms. This acceptance of basic facts is much more satisfying once you are free of all purpose. Enjoy your short life and never question anything. Try Buddhism - with Buddhism you wont have to worry about a thing! Just die peacefully and hope people remember you when your gone. Theres a good boy Ken! Roll over now, thats it Ken, just a short while left and then it will all be over and you will be no more.

Non Sarcastic Voice:

The road to hell is wide and everyone travels it. Be a little different Ken - step out on the water m8

peace

c20

 

[Adstar]

Adstar:

Thank You! That does help! Freewill and Predestination then can exist together in reality because of God's foreknowledge. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). That perspective does help me to fit the pieces together. It also provides a framework from which to view many other things that are difficult to understand.

Thanks,
Ken

Yes Ken that word foreknew is so crucial to understanding predestination Its is a great joy to me that i have been given the opportunity to help you on the Way.

All Praise the Ancient Of Days

 

[Michael]

Yes Ken, come on m8, accept you are gonna die and be eaten by worms. This acceptance of basic facts is much more satisfying once you are free of all purpose.

Whether you like it or not, one day you will be dead and hopefully before such a time you can reach some state of acceptance – and also hopefully it’s a long ways off. If belief in Gods is the only peace you can reach in knowing that you will no longer be, well I see nothing wrong with that – Although that may not be the reason for how they arose, I’m certain that is after all why afterlife myths endure.

Anyway, atheists are free-of-all-purpose? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that of the 1 billion people on the planet that don’t believe in Gods - they are ALL purposeless? Many Chinese and Japanese friends of mine are atheists – are they purposeless?

c20H25N3o, I would say this is a huge misconception – wouldn’t you? Personally, I think one becomes more appreciative and life is purposeful once you realize there’s only this one go at it and there are no Gods or afterlife’s.

That’s just my opinion, I’d wager many converted atheists feel the same.

c20H25N3o, could you answer a few questions for me?
1) In what way is your life more “purposeful” by having a belief in God?
2) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Shinto Gods?
3) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Buddha?
4) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in the Allah?

5) In your opinion is there no way to have a purposeful and meaningful life without the beliefs in your particular God?

6) Can an atheist have a purposeful life in your opinion?

Try Buddhism - with Buddhism you wont have to worry about a thing! Just die peacefully and hope people remember you when your gone. Theres a good boy Ken! Roll over now, thats it Ken, just a short while left and then it will all be over and you will be no more.

c20H25N3o, Are you suggesting that Buddhism is not a worth system of belief?

What about Shinto?
What about Hinduism?
What about Islam?

The road to hell is wide and everyone travels it. Be a little different Ken - step out on the water m8

I think this is the very question that Ken was getting at? Is your answer to “step out on the water mate?” Are you saying that Ken should not question that passage and should instead put his brain on hold and just accept the incongruities of the Bible?

IS that the manner inwhich you gain "purpose" in life c20H25N3o??

Lysergic acid diethylamide??

 

[c20H25N3o]

Whether you like it or not, one day you will be dead and hopefully before such a time you can reach some state of acceptance – and also hopefully it’s a long ways off. If belief in Gods is the only peace you can reach in knowing that you will no longer be, well I see nothing wrong with that – Although that may not be the reason for how they arose, I’m certain that is after all why afterlife myths endure.

You call it myth, I call it truth. Belief and Unbelief. Light and Dark. Whatever!

Anyway, atheists are free-of-all-purpose? Why do you say that? Are you suggesting that of the 1 billion people on the planet that don’t believe in Gods - they are ALL purposeless? Many Chinese and Japanese friends of mine are atheists – are they purposeless?

c20H25N3o, I would say this is a huge misconception – wouldn’t you? Personally, I think one becomes more appreciative and life is purposeful once you realize there’s only this one go at it and there are no Gods or afterlife’s.

That’s just my opinion, I’d wager many converted atheists feel the same.

According to you I live 80 years and become worm food. I dont disagree with that. What I do disagree with is that my life and all that I have endured and suffered as a man is to be tossed away in the earth never to be 'harvested' by that which created me. The worms can have my body, but my soul belongs to God.
I do not live to myself but for the pleasure of that which created me. This is my purpose. My purpose is to serve my creator because He has purpose for me. I do not have purpose in and of myself.

c20H25N3o, could you answer a few questions for me?
1) In what way is your life more “purposeful” by having a belief in God?

- I live to serve others and not myself because I am living to please God.

2) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Shinto Gods?

- There are many 'gods' but there is only 'The One God' through whom all things came into existence. I'll speak to the Author directly therefore. I know nothing about Shinto Gods.

3) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in Buddha?

- I am sure Buddha spoke much wisdom, but like I said I will speak to the Author of Buddha - I find that gives my life more meaning.

4) Would your life be as purposeful by having a belief in the Allah?

- I have the gift of tongues. Allah is a name that edifies me as well as the many other of God's names that are revelaed to me by way of the Spirit.

5) In your opinion is there no way to have a purposeful and meaningful life without the beliefs in your particular God?

To suggest that He is 'my particular God' would be to suggest that He belongs to me exclusively. Rather the pot belongs to the potter not the other way round. My life was puposeless and meaningless without Jesus just to answer your question.

6) Can an atheist have a purposeful life in your opinion?

If God gives them purpose then yes of course!

c20H25N3o, Are you suggesting that Buddhism is not a worth system of belief?


What about Shinto?
What about Hinduism?
What about Islam?

None of the above deal so completely with my questions as the cross of Jesus. The cross of Jesus convicts me to believe in a loving God. I am already well fed - I have no need to seek crumbs from others tables.

I think this is the very question that Ken was getting at? Is your answer to “step out on the water mate?” Are you saying that Ken should not question that passage and should instead put his brain on hold and just accept the incongruities of the Bible?

No - I would say to Ken "Challenge everything with an open mind just as I have already done"

IS that the manner inwhich you gain "purpose" in life c20H25N3o??

Lysergic acid diethylamide??

nope. I have quite clearly stated that I have purpose in life through God's will for my life.
As for do I find purpose in a molecule? Well the molecule has its own purpose and that too was set by God. There are some serious forces at play in the sustaination of that molecules structure therefore wouldnt you agree that it too must have purpose? But purpose in and of itself?

 

[Michael]

I have the gift of tongues. Allah is a name that edifies me as well as the many other of God's names that are revelaed to me by way of the Spirit.

I understand better now. I suppose had I spoken in tongues I would be a believer as well.

But let me ask you two things concerning this.
1) Does your speech sound garbled when you talk in tongues (glossolalia). What I am asking is can everyone understand the words you are saying? Can you?

2) Does the church you regularly attend (if any) accept your gift as really from God? Can I ask what church if any?

Lastly, as you probably know I am an atheist and perhaps skeptical by nature. My purpose in life has been self created; as I think is everyone’s. I’m an academic by choice and try to serve my fellow man via medical research. Which I spend a great deal of my time on for not so much money.

But anyway,

I’m not going to say there is no God – as that of course can no more be proven then saying there is no Buddha or no Shinto Gods; any one or which or all may be real.

I have a close friend that also has “the gift of tongues” (glossolalia) and is quite convinced God is speaking through him. He lives in the States so I don’t see him so much now.

But, I’d just say this: Glossolalia is a real phenomenon and can occur when one is having something akin to a seizure (rapid firing of the neurons) near the speech center of the brain. If you’ve ever seen someone having a seizer you’ll notice that their muscles are twitching and they have little or no control over their movements. Sometimes this happens when a person is in a state of talking in tongues. The two are connected. And many times the churches that support such phenomena are also quite energized – this exciting time in the church can also contribute to initiating glossolalia. The leaders of the Greek cult of Apollo knew a certain number of people were naturally susceptible to having temporal lobe seizures and exploited this to the benefit of their religion.

The United Pentecostal Church have also learned to also exploit this phenomenon – much to their benefit as theirs is one of the most rapidly growing religious communities on the planet.

The sad thing is those in the know can and do use this to their advantage.

If some unknowing member in the church gets excited and has a temporal lobe seizure they will begin talking in gibberish. They have no idea why. One of the church leaders then stands up and begins to “interpret” the gibberish. Because the unwitting member has no other explanation they then believe God must have chosen them. Their life will forever take a different course. Their friends and family will also be moved – knowing this person is telling the truth (as the glossolalia itself is REALLY happening - - it is true). This then strengthens the congregation and thus the church grows. That is how some churches operates. Taking advantage of a persons ignorance to the phenomenon of Temporal Lobe Seizures and turning it into a Gift of Tongues from God.

I think churches that prey on the ignorant are really sick. And this is one of the trickiest for sure. Once caught in that deep it’s almost impossible to get out.

As for do I find purpose in a molecule? Well the molecule has its own purpose and that too was set by God. There are some serious forces at play in the sustaination of that molecules structure therefore wouldnt you agree that it too must have purpose? But purpose in and of itself?

As C20H25N3O is the formula for Lysergic acid diethylamide I can assume you've taken Acid before???

 

[c20H25N3o]

I understand better now. I suppose had I spoken in tongues I would be a believer as well.

But let me ask you two things concerning this.
1) Does your speech sound garbled when you talk in tongues (glossolalia). What I am asking is can everyone understand the words you are saying? Can you?

No it does not sound garbled. It sounds as though it comes from a place that is Holy and pure. I sing in tongues and I hear angels. It edifies my soul because my soul hears The Word. I am a witness to the gift. I am not the gift. As for do others understand me - my wife knows The Word and hears the spirit of what I say. I often interpret the words in plain English as they are given to me. My children need no interpretation. They know The Word and obey Him and love Him. The Word is Life to them.

2) Does the church you regularly attend (if any) accept your gift as really from God? Can I ask what church if any?

I do not go to church but I have attended a Christian worship Group where many speak in tongues and many interpret. I was not considered to be 'special' because of my gift but rather 'blessed' as we all were/are.

Lastly, as you probably know I am an atheist and perhaps skeptical by nature. My purpose in life has been self created; as I think is everyone’s. I’m an academic by choice and try to serve my fellow man via medical research. Which I spend a great deal of my time on for not so much money.

But anyway,

I’m not going to say there is no God – as that of course can no more be proven then saying there is no Buddha or no Shinto Gods; any one or which or all may be real.

I have a close friend that also has “the gift of tongues” (glossolalia) and is quite convinced God is speaking through him. He lives in the States so I don’t see him so much now.

But, I’d just say this: Glossolalia is a real phenomenon and can occur when one is having something akin to a seizure (rapid firing of the neurons) near the speech center of the brain. If you’ve ever seen someone having a seizer you’ll notice that their muscles are twitching and they have little or no control over their movements. Sometimes this happens when a person is in a state of talking in tongues. The two are connected. And many times the churches that support such phenomena are also quite energized – this exciting time in the church can also contribute to initiating glossolalia. The leaders of the Greek cult of Apollo knew a certain number of people were naturally susceptible to having temporal lobe seizures and exploited this to the benefit of their religion.

I am a computer programmer by trade. I think if there was something wrong with my brain I would not be able to control my tongue/s and this would be very evident to my employer who would not appreciate it. This has nothing to do with a condition I am unable to control.

The United Pentecostal Church have also learned to also exploit this phenomenon – much to their benefit as theirs is one of the most rapidly growing religious communities on the planet.

The sad thing is those in the know can and do use this to their advantage.

I know nothing of this church and am therefore unable to comment. Sorry.

If some unknowing member in the church gets excited and has a temporal lobe seizure they will begin talking in gibberish. They have no idea why. One of the church leaders then stands up and begins to “interpret” the gibberish. Because the unwitting member has no other explanation they then believe God must have chosen them. Their life will forever take a different course. Their friends and family will also be moved – knowing this person is telling the truth (as the glossolalia itself is REALLY happening - - it is true). This then strengthens the congregation and thus the church grows. That is how some churches operates. Taking advantage of a persons ignorance to the phenomenon of Temporal Lobe Seizures and turning it into a Gift of Tongues from God.

As I have explained above, this has nothing to do with something that is not within the prophet's control. The prophet chooses to speak with tongues or not. He has choice. I may or may not speak in tongues at my will. Nothing is forced upon me.

I think churches that prey on the ignorant are really sick. And this is one of the trickiest for sure. Once caught in that deep it’s almost impossible to get out.

Churches that 'prey' on the ignorant for financial gain or otherwise are hypocrites just like those Pharisees of Jesus day. Jesus too called them a 'brood of vipers'.

As C20H25N3O is the formula for Lysergic acid diethylamide I can assume you've taken Acid before???

You assume correctly.

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Ok, I've been away from here for a couple of days, and have a lot to respond to. First off, I'd like to address Duendy. How is one to understand the Bible correctly? By understanding what it is and what it was written for.

What is the Bible? It is a collection of different writings, letters, etc. Bible comes from the Greek Biblos, or Bibloi, meaning books. It is, in essence, a compendium of different works written by a number of different authors over a period of more than 1000 years. The author of each book, or letter has his own reasons for writing what he did, but each writing was collected for the merit that each contained. The OT, compiled by the Jews, and is their Scriptures, was a lesson concerning the relationship between God and humans. More particularly, it concerned human behavior, and, overall, deigned to show that when bad actions were performed, bad things happened, and when good things were performed, good things happened. The old Jewish mindset was that when good things happened to you, you were blessed, and this was because you were a good person. Likewise, if bad things happened to you it is because you were cursed, and this being because you had done something wrong. Basically, it boils down to what the Jews called the "Covenant." As long as the Jews kept the covenant (didn't perform bad actions), then things went well for them. However, if the Jews didn't keep the covenant (performed bad actions), things went badly for them. Even the prophetic books reflected this mentality, as they prophesied one who would never break the coventant in the eyes of God, and therefore the Jews would be freed from their bondages.

The NT, written within 100 years of Christ's birth, concerned Christ and His teachings (some would contend that Christ's teachings were different from Paul's.... I'll leave that debate for another time). Part of the NT is to show how Christ fulfilled the prophesies.... and was a messiah of a different kind than what the Jews expected (they expected a militant, or political messiah). However, unlike the OT, the NT focused much more on the spiritual than the physical. The Blessed were no long seen as those who receive riches, wealth, etc... Rather, the blessings that the good would receive pertained to the spiritual. Also, the curses that the wicked received also pertained to the spiritual. Jesus was indicated as being the one who would never break the covenant with God (and forged a new covenant of perfection through Him).

Basically speaking, the NT was a fulfillment of the OT. The OT thought remained, but under a different light, a spiritual light, rather than the physical. Therefore, while we should recognize the value and wisdom of the OT writers, we should not take such considerations as the destructions of whole cities as actions from God, since that viewpoint came out of the OT mindset that the wicked would be cursed (presumably from God).

How should the Bible be understood? As a book pertaining to good living, to wise living, to good actions, rather than bad actions. It should be understood under the thought of the time in which it was being written. It should be understood in correlation with other holy writings. It should NOT be considered as a science book. It should NOT be considered as a history book. It should NOT be considered as a book of governance, but rather a book of guidance. Understand what is written in light of why it was written, who wrote it, why it was considered worthwhile and that it is a book about the real humanity. It is the bloodiest of all holy books, because it does not hide who and what humans are. It is bloody for the sake of learning, for the sake of showing what lows humans can come to. Christ is meant to be the great hope, the great high that humans can achieve.

Now I will address -=T=- ,

I'm sorry that you interpreted what I said in such a manner, since that is not how it was meant to be received at all. I did not say, at all, that it is through the bible alone that one may enter into the state of heavenm, and so you interpretation that "(a) I'm special. I'm saved. I understand spiritual things now because I have become spiritual. You don't understand. You're not saved! You're not spiritual like me." is completely off-base, since that is entirely not the attitude I hold. Just because one does not understand, does not mean that he/she is not spiritual, or is not saved, or anything like that. This is entirely obvious since there are MANY men and women who have been called saints in history who were not highly intelligent individuals, and who probably didn't understand what was written in the Bible completely and entirely. However, they did understand how to live good and decent lives, not for themselves, but in service of others. They knew enough to take Christ as an example to their own lives. I CERTAINLY do not hold that if one does not understand, or if one is not "inspired" that he/she is not saved. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Athiest, you may, by all means, enter into the state of heaven for eternity. I wrote what I did simply to say that if one understands, or reads it in the wrong light, then it CAN lead to conflict with one's self and with others. YES, it happens. People read "If man lies with man, put to death" (in Deuteronomy I believe), and they think, "it says it so we should do it." Yeah, it happens, but that is because they don't understand it properly. The example passage was written under the Levitical Law, which has its roots in Hamurabi's Law (spelling?). That law said "and Eye for and Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth." Which simply means that the crime should be equal to the punishment, nothing more nothing less. Therefore, what is simply being stated here is that the action in question is serious, serious enough to be ranked with killing. This is probably based in the conception of the "wasting of the seed" (which, I think, they considered a form of killing), since there is no such prescription given for two women "lying" together. If one understands the context properly, they won't say "it says to kill gays, so let's go do it." ESPECIALLY, if they consider it under the light of the NT, in which we have Jesus as our example, who preached kindness, and forgiving (let's not forget the lesson of "he who has not sinned, cast the first stone").

By saying "Undoubtedly, texts of any kind can lead the unwitting and short of sight into conflict with himself and others," I meant exactly that, when one reads the Bible improperly, one is probably going to come to wrong conclusions about how to act in life. I, in no way, meant that in order to be saved one must be able to read the Bible properly.

This also addresses SouthStar's comment. There is no predestination here. Those who might be considered "stupid" most certainly have every ability to enter into the state of heaven, just as those who might be considered "intelligent" most certainly have every ability to enter into the state of hell. It is all a matter of choice. I simply meant to bring the negative comments about the Bible into the light of wrong interpretation. When one misunderstands what is written, obviously they're probably going to believe some pretty scary stuff. Just because those who say they believe in the Bible are a little "off the wall," so to speak, doesn't mean ALL people who believe in the Bible are, nor that the Bible itself is bad, or destructive. It is simply a matter of how it is understood, which is why I stand against personal interpretation, and stand by an authoritative interpretation that is brought about by long hours of study by many theologians who cross reference the texts with other sacred writings, and historical documents as well as the other texts within the work itself. Such interpretation will be much closer to what was actually meant, and designed to convey, than any individual interpretation. Sure, individual interpretation can bring new insight, but that new insight should be put under close scrutiny in order to see if it isn't a fallacious one.

 

[JustARide]

So, C20H25N3O, I'm still waiting for an example of someone who managed to rely on something other than his own understanding.

As for drugs, I much prefer shrooms to acid. From your posts, it appears you are actually believing the shit you see while tripping. I must admit I'm jealous. I've never met Jesus or spoken in tongues, though I did meet David Bowie once.

 

[SnakeLord]

to make a point about the attitude of the 'giver'

Yes, but there were no differing 'attitudes of the givers'. They both gave to god that which they produced. One was livestock, the other fruit. There is no difference. It's not like Cain gave all the rotten fruit, unless you are going to claim otherwise.

you just want to prove that Christianity is a load of bunkem and that God doesn't have parents - what rubbish!

christianity is "bunkem", and I don't need to prove it. I have faith and know it's "bunkem" :bugeye:

As for the parent's part, you put parents into the analogy - which detracted from the actual point and post. If you're going to use an analogy, it has to run alongside and in conjunction with the actual story at hand, and not add loads of irrelevancies.

You do not even pay attention to the text!

My job is to pay attention to text. I can assure you I did.

Are you truly saying that the thought and trouble taken by the brother you were 'closer' too didnt mean any more to you than the wayward selfish brother who just stuck what he had in his pocket in an envelope?

A) Why say you're "closer" to one. Does god play favourites?

B) Yes I am truly saying that they are both equal, because as I explained - in my country we have manners, we care about our siblings/children, and we don't make such vile distinctions. They wouldn't even have to give me anything, birthday or not, and I'd love them just the same. Ok, I'm not god and so do not understand the need to demand gifts - but where I come from, we don't see it as important.

How wicked of you that you did not appreciate the extra effort shown by that brother that you were closer too!

A) Why "closer"? It's irrelevant and has no bearing on the actual biblical text.

B) I love them the same regardless to if they even bring me anything. I'd hate to see your household.

Stop trying to 'prove' me wrong and pay attention!

Prove you wrong? 2/3's of your analogy was flawed, the rest was stupid.

You might learn something!

From you, it's very unlikely. I'd rather hand myself in for a session at the local scientology center.