A Sincere Cry For An Answer
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Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Lets look at the story of pharaoh:
God hardened Pharaohs heart that is made him stubbornly reject the request of Moses to free the Jews from Egypt. But as we see from the scriptures below Pharaoh rejected the request before God hardened his heart. The hardening of Pharaohs heart was for a purpose. It was so that he would continue to resist Moses to an illogical extent so that all the great plagues and miracles that happened during the exodus could be made to happen. Thereby making it clear to the world that it was God freeing the people not Moses or Pharaoh or the people themselves.
Exodus 8
28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."
29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."
30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Can you see that it was Pharaoh that initially hardened his heart. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.
Exodus 9
8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Now we see it is at this point in the story that God hardens pharaohs heart. He did this to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.
You see the clay already exists before the potter decides to use one lump of clay to make a vessel of wrath or a vessel of grace.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
10And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Lets look at the story of pharaoh:
God hardened Pharaohs heart that is made him stubbornly reject the request of Moses to free the Jews from Egypt. But as we see from the scriptures below Pharaoh rejected the request before God hardened his heart. The hardening of Pharaohs heart was for a purpose. It was so that he would continue to resist Moses to an illogical extent so that all the great plagues and miracles that happened during the exodus could be made to happen. Thereby making it clear to the world that it was God freeing the people not Moses or Pharaoh or the people themselves.
Exodus 8
28So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go, that you may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you shall not go very far away. Intercede for me."
29Then Moses said, "Indeed I am going out from you, and I will entreat the LORD, that the swarms of flies may depart tomorrow from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. But let Pharaoh not deal deceitfully anymore in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD."
30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and entreated the LORD. 31And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; He removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people. Not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Can you see that it was Pharaoh that initially hardened his heart. Pharaoh was in total rebellion against the will of God.
Exodus 9
8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt." 10Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Now we see it is at this point in the story that God hardens pharaohs heart. He did this to complete the series of signs to leave no one in doubt that it was God himself who was freeing the Jews from Egypt. Pharaoh was already lost, God chose to use him for his greater plan. By pharaohs stiff necked rebellion he made himself available to God to be used as a vessel of Gods wrath.
You see the clay already exists before the potter decides to use one lump of clay to make a vessel of wrath or a vessel of grace.
All Praise The Ancient of Days
In order for you to answer these questions in accordance with the Bible, you must first take a point of view where you have faith in your own stupidity, evil, ugliness, and other vices. First thing you say to yourself is that god knows better than you; the rest comes easy. This tames pride; but it is also a sure way to weakness.
Also, if you really look, those who are shown as unfavored by god in the bible really do have some bad deeds mentioned. You may look at the story of Kain and Abel and ask why Abel was favored; the answer is there.
nicoman said:
I'm glad thats not what my spirit tells me! How dark it must be for you nicoman! Where is the hope in your particular belief that Jesus is nothing? Who is your God nicoman? Yourself? Boy what a dissapointent God must be to you!
I guess, for me, this seems to come down to man’s freewill vs. God’s sovereignty. On the surface these two ideas seem to be diametrically opposed to each other. They seem to collide. But, perhaps there is a way in which both of these can simultaneously exist in each one of us. Is it possible that the two are actually woven together in harmony like different colored threads in a giant tapestry? Perhaps they are each separate and distinct and yet also woven together to create a new whole. What do you think?
Thank you rtt7 and Adstar! I will consider your comments further!
Ken
Thank you rtt7 and Adstar! I will consider your comments further!
Ken
c20H25N3o said:
Man, I hate that line.
Tell me, how can you lean on anything but your own understanding? If you come up with something yourself, that's your own understanding at work, right? If you read something someone else has written and decide to believe it, that is still a decision made based on your understanding of what someone else wrote. Even if you surrender entirely and decide to put your faith in the Bible or a philosophy someone else espoused, you are still making that decision based on your own understanding of what you should do, which was based on experience.
Ken,
I like way you think and I feel you are heading in a possitive direction.
So much of what is decribled in the Bible requires unconventional thought.
Why Christ chose to die on the Cross says it all. If we realy want to understand The God of the Bible we need to be very open minded.
Christ popularity was not neccissarily based on what he said but by the many mircle's he performed. The works exceeded the word's.
The fact we see planes in the sky exceedes the debates on if man can fly.
To Understand Christ you need to seek more that just plain old philosophy.
Chirst teaches us what it mean's to be God, that is to be able to bend all the rules including Death.
Simple philosophy is not enough when trying to make sence of God.
Philosophy is one small part of Gods Power.
To preach love your neighbour is one thing, to preach love your enemy is another.
To love your enemy is behond gerneral logic, but it does makes sence when you understand that their are no enemies, just opportunities to make the impossible possible through divine aid.
If God could describe his essence to us this would mean we are equal to him in mental power.
Is this what we want God to do? Share with us His Divine essence?
If so then what hope have we got if we can't even forgive God for making a free world full or Good and Bad.
Keep an open mind if you want to understand the Essence of God. Narrow-mindedness helps no one.
Regard's,
Harry.
I like way you think and I feel you are heading in a possitive direction.
So much of what is decribled in the Bible requires unconventional thought.
Why Christ chose to die on the Cross says it all. If we realy want to understand The God of the Bible we need to be very open minded.
Christ popularity was not neccissarily based on what he said but by the many mircle's he performed. The works exceeded the word's.
The fact we see planes in the sky exceedes the debates on if man can fly.
To Understand Christ you need to seek more that just plain old philosophy.
Chirst teaches us what it mean's to be God, that is to be able to bend all the rules including Death.
Simple philosophy is not enough when trying to make sence of God.
Philosophy is one small part of Gods Power.
To preach love your neighbour is one thing, to preach love your enemy is another.
To love your enemy is behond gerneral logic, but it does makes sence when you understand that their are no enemies, just opportunities to make the impossible possible through divine aid.
If God could describe his essence to us this would mean we are equal to him in mental power.
Is this what we want God to do? Share with us His Divine essence?
If so then what hope have we got if we can't even forgive God for making a free world full or Good and Bad.
Keep an open mind if you want to understand the Essence of God. Narrow-mindedness helps no one.
Regard's,
Harry.
W
what768
Guest
1Dude
Truly I tell you, there is no free will. But because man ate from the symbolic tree of knowledge he has become aware of "Me", and identifies himself with his body. In reality, we are not held responsible for what we do, but because we think that "I am doing this", our illusion of free will seems to be punishing us. There is only God, nothing else. Later you will see that there is only me, nothing else, then you will realize God.
There is no good or bad. An asteroid which falls upon earth is not good or bad, but we call it bad, when millions of people die. We are not aware of Gods thinking, and he does not think personally, he sees the entire reality at once, and makes no difference between, so called, good or bad.
Just relax and sit back, stop doing things, stop your doubting, stop your motion. Forget about "Me", and the puppet which you think is "You" will do its own work, through you. For there is no "I", there is only God, and if he is "torturing" someone, he is "torturing" himself.
Truly I tell you, there is no free will. But because man ate from the symbolic tree of knowledge he has become aware of "Me", and identifies himself with his body. In reality, we are not held responsible for what we do, but because we think that "I am doing this", our illusion of free will seems to be punishing us. There is only God, nothing else. Later you will see that there is only me, nothing else, then you will realize God.
There is no good or bad. An asteroid which falls upon earth is not good or bad, but we call it bad, when millions of people die. We are not aware of Gods thinking, and he does not think personally, he sees the entire reality at once, and makes no difference between, so called, good or bad.
Just relax and sit back, stop doing things, stop your doubting, stop your motion. Forget about "Me", and the puppet which you think is "You" will do its own work, through you. For there is no "I", there is only God, and if he is "torturing" someone, he is "torturing" himself.
JustARide said:
I give you an example.
When Peter stepped out of the boat, he did so completely against all that he understood. In fact the moment he did step out, his reasoning and logic ( his own understanding) came into play and he stopped believing in the one who was asking him to join him on the water and so immediately began to sink. He had lost faith because he had lent to his own understanding. Jesus took Peter's hand knowing Peter's nature and knowing his weakness and loving everything about him and in Jesus Peter had faith and was saved.
When I say "Lean not to your own understanding", I am really saying "Faith requires you to put all of your logic behind you because faith is not based on the facts of this world or your particular understanding of them."
I am asked to prove my God exists all the time but if to demonstrate that my God exists, I were to go to the tap and pour you a glass of water because you were thirsty, you would just say "But this is a glass of water! This proves nothing!"
If you cannot see my love for you I cannot show you any further that my God exists. This is not to say that God will not show you however since all things are possible for God.
peace
c20
SnakeLord said:
Lol - it wasnt what was offered it was the spirit it was offered in.
It's your birthday SnakeLord and you have two brothers. One brother you are particulary close to because you share the same outlook on life, the other brother you love ( because he is your brother) but you dont think he has done himself any favours by some of the choices he has made despite the fact that he is rich and outwardly seems to be doing very well. The brother you are close to always seems content with his lot and he makes sensible choices despite being poor. The other brother brings shame to your parents because he does terrible things that only you and they know about. But it's your birthday and both brothers visit you. The brother you seem more close to gives you a small gift, it didnt cost much but you know he is poor and it is just what you always wanted. That brother has taken time with little resources to find the 'perfect gift' for you.
The other brother who is rich just stuffs some cash in an envelope and gives it you saying "There you go mate - more than you deserve - but hey your my brother".
Your father then turns round and rebukes the rich brother saying "Come on, you could have at least gone into a shop and chosen a gift! Anyone with money can just stuff money in an envelope!" Your mother agrees and gives the rich brother 'one of her looks'.
The rich brother becomes angry and says "But look at what my poor brother has given him, its a crappy *insert favorite small gift here* - my gift is worth ten thousand of those!"
Your father says "That may be so but it's the thought that counts"
Your mother agrees.
The rich brother storms out pushing past the poor brother on the way out.
Which brother pleased your parents? Whose gift actually cost more? What should the rich brother have done when your parents said what they said concerning his gift? Which gift pleased you most and why?
1Dude said:
Hi Dude 1
i put down some thoughts a while back for my friends i thought i might post it here for you. maybe it will add something to your search.
Lets look at the book of revelations. John was on the island of Patmos when God revealed the future to him, he saw the final judgment in process, now did he see a representation of what was to happen or was he actually transported through time to the final judgment and actually saw the final judgment in progress? You may be thinking what does it matter? Well if he was actually there at the final judgment and saw the great multitude standing before God then he would be looking at real people some of whom would not have been born until 100’s or maybe 1000’s of years after his lifetime. So he was looking at people who had not been born yet, (in his time) that had been born lived their lives believed or not believed, died and raised, which were being judged. He saw the angles dividing the multitudes and casting some into the lake of fire. So even before they were born it was known what choices they were going to make and therefore their ultimate destination.
It may seem to you that I am supporting the predestination view; well in a way I am and in another way I am not. Let me explain. If God knows the future to the detail that I have suggested above, than he knows what choices people will make during their lives even before they are born. So we still have free will it’s just that God already knows what choices we are going to make.
So to use an analogy The history of existence is like a real life documentary and God has got the tape and can F-Forward it and knows the outcome beforehand. The people who are in the documentary are free to say and do what they want and they say and do what they want. From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:Hi Dude 1
From that tape he has already written down in his book (the book of life) who he has selected for his next production and who gets the chop.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
Survival of the fittest in other words
Heres the tricky part though and it is in God's great wisdom that he makes his selection.
It is the least who are the greatest and it is the greatest who are the least.
Round and around and around we go! Who is the humblest? Does anyone know?
Praise be to God through Jesus Christ Our Lord!
Amen
Adstar:
Thank You! That does help! Freewill and Predestination then can exist together in reality because of God's foreknowledge. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). That perspective does help me to fit the pieces together. It also provides a framework from which to view many other things that are difficult to understand.
Thanks,
Ken
Thank You! That does help! Freewill and Predestination then can exist together in reality because of God's foreknowledge. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). That perspective does help me to fit the pieces together. It also provides a framework from which to view many other things that are difficult to understand.
Thanks,
Ken
c20H25n3o: Although your analogy is highly flawed, I'll respond to it anyway.
This part is irrelevant. It goes even more against god if he has made such a distinction by this point. Further to which, the rich brother would have been Abel who dealt with livestock as opposed to apples and potatoes.
This part is irrelevant because there is no justification for any of it. It does not say Cain did terrible things, it merely says he tilled the soil whereas Abel was a shepherd.
I would consider them awful parents, and although I might prefer one specific gift - the same gratitude and love would be showed to both of my brothers. Maybe it's different wherever you come from, but in my country we have manners.
Besides, this is also flawed, in that both brothers actually brought what they produced. Abel who worked with animals bought a dead animal, while Cain who worked with fruit, bought fruit.
If one of my brothers who worked for a car company brought me a car, and the other brother who worked for a toy shop bought me a tamagotchi, I could not "discipline" one of them for bringing me something I didn't like- or if I did, it would be plain as day that I'm a complete asshole.
god has parents? Obviously you'd mean who pleased me, and I could only say "both", in that they'd both brought me their produce, neither had forgotten to do so, and even if I preferred one present over the other, it would not in any way mean anger shown at one of them. If I did that, I'd be an asshole.
Neither.
"Shit, you're bad parents". Or failing that, he could just say what they said: "It's the thought that counts".
We all have particular tastes, and as such one would be our favourite present. This doesn't mean we show anger to the other brother because his present is inferior, unless of course we're mannerless assholes.
This part is irrelevant. It goes even more against god if he has made such a distinction by this point. Further to which, the rich brother would have been Abel who dealt with livestock as opposed to apples and potatoes.
This part is irrelevant because there is no justification for any of it. It does not say Cain did terrible things, it merely says he tilled the soil whereas Abel was a shepherd.
I would consider them awful parents, and although I might prefer one specific gift - the same gratitude and love would be showed to both of my brothers. Maybe it's different wherever you come from, but in my country we have manners.
Besides, this is also flawed, in that both brothers actually brought what they produced. Abel who worked with animals bought a dead animal, while Cain who worked with fruit, bought fruit.
If one of my brothers who worked for a car company brought me a car, and the other brother who worked for a toy shop bought me a tamagotchi, I could not "discipline" one of them for bringing me something I didn't like- or if I did, it would be plain as day that I'm a complete asshole.
god has parents? Obviously you'd mean who pleased me, and I could only say "both", in that they'd both brought me their produce, neither had forgotten to do so, and even if I preferred one present over the other, it would not in any way mean anger shown at one of them. If I did that, I'd be an asshole.
Neither.
"Shit, you're bad parents". Or failing that, he could just say what they said: "It's the thought that counts".
We all have particular tastes, and as such one would be our favourite present. This doesn't mean we show anger to the other brother because his present is inferior, unless of course we're mannerless assholes.
c20H25N3o said:
You're not getting what I'm saying.
Even when Peter decided to let go of what his intuition told him, that was still a product of his own understanding of what he should do. In effect, his understanding told him to let reason and logic go -- that was still his own decision, based on experience and what was going on around him. To completely let go of one's understanding is to be dead.
Can you make any decision without your own mind? No. Even if that mind is telling to you "let go," as it were, it is still your mind telling you this, not someone else's. You must first decide to believe someone else; no one can make this decision for you, not even God. (Free will, right?)
What you are describing is someone whose own understanding of a situation led him to question reality as he knew it -- not to let go of his own understanding. Apart from a brain transplant or death, I see no way that someone can have any thought that was not first produced or received via one's own mind and understanding.