A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

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Kittamaru said:
Geoff, I think you are intentionally missing Bells point there. She is irate that anyone could tag a "but" onto a humans "life condition"... ergo, it is like saying 'You are human, except when (X) happens' That is silly... women are human beings, end of story. They have rights over their body, end of story. The fetus has rights as well, end of story. Wait, conflict, sometimes the woman's rights and the fetus' rights don't coincide... who wins out?
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(Not sure why I'm intervening... Never goes well for me... But hey ho...)

To take umbrage with the use of "but" seems pedantic as much as it seems wrong.
"Women are humans... but they're the ones who get to give birth to the offspring."
Anything wrong with that statement?

One could have used "and", but the "but" is to emphasise a difference between the label of "human" and the label of "woman". I.e. Not everything attributable to the label of woman is attributable to the label of human.
The "but" was not to point out an exception to the identity of "human" but to express an addition to that identity that is borne solely by "woman".

As such, GeoffP's usage seems fair and reasonable, as he was using it to promote such a difference.
We start with the label of human, and the rights assigned to humans. And then, through the "but" we go on to explain some additional situations that also need to be taken into consideration when it comes to "woman" due to circumstances which they are sometimes found in that men can not be.

Any issue taken with the statement by GeoffP thus seems, to me, to stem from something other than the mere language being used.

But then that seems true of much of this thread so far... Both strands of it.
 
OK, yeah...Not really sure how this thread went from atheism, to abortion, but, whatever.

Just my two cents...Yeah, I'm most likely gonna piss some of you off here...

IMO, a woman has the right to abort whenever she so chooses.

A fetus has no knowledge of the world, no awareness.

Do any of you, have any recollection, of your time in the womb? Of course you don't. You were a non-being.

My mother never wanted a child, I was an accident. But, she wasn't able to legally abort at the time.

Obviously, if a woman comes to term, then there's no going back... But, IMO, until delivery, she the right to abort. Again, this is just my opinion.
 
Gremmie said:
OK, yeah...Not really sure how this thread went from atheism, to abortion, but, whatever.

Just my two cents...Yeah, I'm most likely gonna piss some of you off here...

IMO, a woman has the right to abort whenever she so chooses.

A fetus has no knowledge of the world, no awareness.

Do any of you, have any recollection, of your time in the womb? Of course you don't. You were a non-being.

My mother never wanted a child, I was an accident. But, she wasn't able to legally abort at the time.

Obviously, if a woman comes to term, then there's no going back... But, IMO, until delivery, she the right to abort. Again, this is just my opinion.
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You give humans an inch..... they will take a dry foot.
 
Gremmie said:
OK, yeah...Not really sure how this thread went from atheism, to abortion, but, whatever.

Just my two cents...Yeah, I'm most likely gonna piss some of you off here...

IMO, a woman has the right to abort whenever she so chooses.

A fetus has no knowledge of the world, no awareness.

Do any of you, have any recollection, of your time in the womb? Of course you don't. You were a non-being.

My mother never wanted a child, I was an accident. But, she wasn't able to legally abort at the time.

Obviously, if a woman comes to term, then there's no going back... But, IMO, until delivery, she the right to abort. Again, this is just my opinion.
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The thing is, a fetus IS aware inside the womb:

The Journal of American Medical Association says - at 26 weeks it can feel. Being able to feel connotates consciousness and sentience (or at least the rudimentary beginnings of it).

Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded in a meta-analysis of data from dozens of medical reports and studies that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy. There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain.

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.
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That would be about the 6 month mark - beginning of the third trimester. This is part of why I feel that, if you haven't terminated by then, you shouldn't have the option to terminate without just cause as, at this point, the fetus IS capable of experiencing pain (as well as reacting to voices, sounds, etc as they continue to develop)
 
Kittamaru said:
That would be about the 6 month mark - beginning of the third trimester. This is part of why I feel that, if you haven't terminated by then, you shouldn't have the option to terminate without just cause as, at this point, the fetus IS capable of experiencing pain (as well as reacting to voices, sounds, etc as they continue to develop)
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Seems a reasonable position to me. Not evil, not woman-hating. You're not making any assumptions about a woman's ability to make decisions. I don't see the problem.
 
Balerion said:
Seems a reasonable position to me. Not evil, not woman-hating. You're not making any assumptions about a woman's ability to make decisions. I don't see the problem.
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Part of the issue is that there are some (especially the more hard-line religious folk) who feel that abortion at any time for any reason should be banned.
Then, there are people (few and far between thank goodness) that view abortion as a "perfectly acceptable means of contraception" that should be available at any time.

Obviously, these two groups tend to spark a lot of conflict.
 
Kittamaru said:
The thing is, a fetus IS aware inside the womb:



That would be about the 6 month mark - beginning of the third trimester. This is part of why I feel that, if you haven't terminated by then, you shouldn't have the option to terminate without just cause as, at this point, the fetus IS capable of experiencing pain (as well as reacting to voices, sounds, etc as they continue to develop)
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OK then, I stand corrected... But, let me ask you this...

A woman gets pregnant... She neither wants a child, or is willing to care for it... She has to have it, because, why?. Adoption is always an option, this is true.

I stand by what I said though... A woman has the right to abort. And, at times, it's actually to the benefit of the unborn child.

I'm an atheist, yeah, the devil's spawn as it were... Sorry, just figured since this thread was actually supposed to be atheism, I'd throw that in there...
 
Gremmie said:
OK then, I stand corrected... But, let me ask you this...
A woman gets pregnant... She neither wants a child, or is willing to care for it... She has to have it, because, why?. Adoption is always an option, this is true.
I stand by what I said though... A woman has the right to abort. And, at times, it's actually to the benefit of the unborn child.
I'm an atheist, yeah, the devil's spawn as it were... Sorry, just figured since this thread was actually supposed to be atheism, I'd throw that in there...
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In that case, she should have the abortion as early as possible - and then go on some serious contraceptives to ensure this doesn't happen again until she wants to have a child.
However, if she waits to the third trimester or later, then adoption should be the go-to option - after all, at that point you would subject the fetus to pain and suffering (not to mention the horrors of what can happen if the abortion fails) and, honestly, if she has gone that long without doing something about it, then there is an air of irresponsibility about it. Granted, there are situations that would exempt one from this, but still.
 
Kittamaru said:
Part of the issue is that there are some (especially the more hard-line religious folk) who feel that abortion at any time for any reason should be banned.
Then, there are people (few and far between thank goodness) that view abortion as a "perfectly acceptable means of contraception" that should be available at any time.

Obviously, these two groups tend to spark a lot of conflict.
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Your buddy is a member of the latter group. I think It's wrong that she goes around calling people psychos over it.
 
Balerion said:
Seems a reasonable position to me. Not evil, not woman-hating. You're not making any assumptions about a woman's ability to make decisions. I don't see the problem.
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Except that it requires women to abandon control of their bodies.

I suppose it's not technically hating women to not consider them full persons, but it doesn't seem all that moral.
 
Kittamaru said:
The thing is, a fetus IS aware inside the womb:



That would be about the 6 month mark - beginning of the third trimester. This is part of why I feel that, if you haven't terminated by then, you shouldn't have the option to terminate without just cause as, at this point, the fetus IS capable of experiencing pain (as well as reacting to voices, sounds, etc as they continue to develop)
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Hu.. That's interesting..

What you quoted:

The Journal of American Medical Association says - at 26 weeks it can feel. Being able to feel connotates consciousness and sentience (or at least the rudimentary beginnings of it).

Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded in a meta-analysis of data from dozens of medical reports and studies that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy. There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain.

Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.
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And here is what I found on a wiki page..


Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded in a meta-analysis of data from dozens of medical reports and studies that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy.[6][7] There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain.[8] Because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it may be "impossible to know" when painful experiences are perceived, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.[9]

Electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in premature infants probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks; this study asserted that withdrawal reflexes and changes in heart rates and hormone levels in response to invasive procedures are reflexes that do not indicate fetal pain.[6]
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Could you please link your source?

The wiki article then goes on to say:

Also in 2005, David Mellor and colleagues reviewed several lines of evidence that suggested a fetus does not awaken during its time in the womb. Mellor notes that much of the literature on fetal pain simply extrapolates from findings and research on premature babies. He questions the value of such data:

Systematic studies of fetal neurological function suggest, however, that there are major differences in the in utero environment and fetal neural state that make it likely that this assumption is substantially incorrect.

He and his team detected the presence of such chemicals as adenosine, pregnanolone, and prostaglandin-D2 in both human and animal fetuses, indicating that the fetus is both sedated and anesthetized in the womb. These chemicals are oxidized with the newborn's first few breaths and washed out of the tissues, allowing consciousness to occur. If the fetus is asleep throughout gestation then the possibility of fetal pain is greatly minimized.[10] “A fetus,” Mellor told The New York Times, “is not a baby who just hasn’t been born yet.”[11]

There is also discussion among researchers about how pain is perceived over-all. Some researchers believe that because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, pain may not be sensed until after birth.[12] Other researchers argue that pain is felt during the second trimester of pregnancy.[13] Direct fetal analgesia is used in only a minority of prenatal surgeries.[14]

In 2001, a working group of the Medical Research Council (UK) in the United Kingdom called for more research regarding fetal pain.[15] According to the Daily Telegraph, Eve Johnstone, the chair of that working group "makes a strong case for additional research." Ms. Johnstone told the newspaper, "We ought to study this carefully."[16]

Though many researchers in the area of fetal development agree a fetus is unlikely to feel pain until after the seventh month of pregnancy,[6][7] developmental neurobiologists suspect that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) may be critical to fetal perception of pain
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Gremmie said:
OK then, I stand corrected... But, let me ask you this...

A woman gets pregnant... She neither wants a child, or is willing to care for it... She has to have it, because, why?. Adoption is always an option, this is true.

I stand by what I said though... A woman has the right to abort. And, at times, it's actually to the benefit of the unborn child.

I'm an atheist, yeah, the devil's spawn as it were... Sorry, just figured since this thread was actually supposed to be atheism, I'd throw that in there...
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Of course she has the right to abort. But I think there should be a cut-off point, barring obvious circumstances.
 
Sarkus said:
(Not sure why I'm intervening... Never goes well for me... But hey ho...)

To take umbrage with the use of "but" seems pedantic as much as it seems wrong.
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It is not the use of the word alone that is the problem. The problem is with the idea that women are human beings but we can't allow them all the freedoms and rights of persons.
 
PhysBang said:
It is not the use of the word alone that is the problem. The problem is with the idea that women are human beings but we can't allow them all the freedoms and rights of persons.
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Who says they don't have all the freedoms and rights of persons?
 
PhysBang said:
Except that it requires women to abandon control of their bodies.

I suppose it's not technically hating women to not consider them full persons, but it doesn't seem all that moral.
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I am a woman and I consider myself a full person. I also consider a third trimester fetus a person, too. Quite the dilemma, NOT! We all have limits put on us, male and female. Why is the female special in this regard?
 
Kittamaru said:
In that case, she should have the abortion as early as possible - and then go on some serious contraceptives to ensure this doesn't happen again until she wants to have a child.
However, if she waits to the third trimester or later, then adoption should be the go-to option - after all, at that point you would subject the fetus to pain and suffering (not to mention the horrors of what can happen if the abortion fails) and, honestly, if she has gone that long without doing something about it, then there is an air of irresponsibility about it. Granted, there are situations that would exempt one from this, but still.
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"honestly, if she has gone that long without doing something about it,"

As long as shes healthy... is 3 more monthes gonna hurt.???
 
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