A question for the atheists???

[sargentlard]

This is not really ignorance on my part solely due to the fact that i have tried to see this question from a third person, objective, point of view and yet failed. I want an answer to this question because after learning the true nature of atheism it has become even more piercing in my head with it's begging nature to be answered.

Someone who has been raised under the ideology of god, always told how to believe in god and not why

I naturally, have developed a constant trust of an omnipotent being watching over us peons. I always knew of those that defied such logic, but like every other child i came to accept that those atheists were hedonistic bastards who didn't know better. Call it an attempt towards status quo by our society or carelessness but we were told to hate atheists due to their blasphemous nature.

Fast forward towards my entry into sciforums and a growing interest in the different fields of science

The more i learn the more i am flabbergasted at the people for accepting the notion of god. Looking at renderings of an artist and accepting that image as their ultimate savior, i mean how is it possible for them to overlook such a flaw in their lives?

Then it hits me.....it is faith...faith and hope, a sense of security even from the society around us, from humanity itself. Human history has been tainted with blood so how could people not believe in some reward waiting for their services, their suffering, and their courage to endure the torment and keep their principles at bay. It is the sense of relief and awe at what awaits us eventually, that it will all be better.

Ok, so considering that God maybe our last leg to stand on and smile

What faith do the atheists hold? In all my questioning of self i come to realize that i am still dependent, still enamored by the notion of the idea that someone is looking over me, someone is at hand in time of need. Trust me, i have said my fair share of " oh god please help me". So i ask myself if i decide to let go of the notion of god where do i go when i am scared? When i am worried?.....who do i pray to? who will console me when i am too proud to admit my faults?......that worries me, that is my ultimate reason of still being faithful in god (though that faith has wained into belief).

So in realizing i am a dependant coward, dependant on the questionable cosmic mojo that is god

I ask the atheists who do you go in time of need? Do you ever simply blurt out "Oh god"? In time off dire need, in the wake of a personal crisis all pray, pray for the better but what do you guys do? What is your faith? What is your ultimate belief?

This comes from someone who is too much of a wimp to even admit that the idea of god doesn't appeal to him anymore but he clings on to it just in case god is real.....pathetic yes, but when all your life you have been told god is real but never been told why you question his validity yet fear his denial.

 

[RebelWithoutACow]

Ok, well first i gotta say im not really an athiest by the strictest definition, its more a case of personally not caring either way. The reason for this is that from what i can see, if there IS some greater power ( or powers ) out there, they either cant/wont interfere with all the crap humanity does to itself and the planet, or like it.

As to who/what do i do in times of need, I look to my friends and family, or sometimes myself. If the problem, whatever it is, is caused by some external factor, human or otherwise, i might simply resort to a few well placed "obscene" words ( yeah, i've been know to abuse inanimate objects now and then! "F**KIN HAMMER! HOW DARE YOU HURT MY THUMB!" ).

To the best of my recall, I havent ever felt the need to ask some higher power for help, theres nearly always more mundane help to be found much closer to hand, and it would seem to me to be more reliable

 

[Cris]

Ok nice question.

As a believer you will have formed a mental image of your God/Jesus or whatever. If you have been brainwashed since childhood then you may never be able to expel that image entirely effectively. Intellectualizing helps but the emotions felt as a child of a loving and protective god figure will have burnt themselves into you very deeply.

The first step is to remember that you are alone and that you will never receive help from a super being no matter how bad life becomes. This eventually empowers a strong sense of immense freedom and independence; it should also help make you more assertive and confident.

The next step is to view issues as challenges rather than problems and that you must face these challenges on your own. I usually see them as opportunities to learn something new. In the past 12 years I have dealt with two deaths of close relatives, my divorce, losing my job, and emigration to the USA from the UK. The more issues you face and succeed then the easier they become and the stronger you become.

If faith is involved then it is faith in myself.

Does that help?
Cris

 

[Balerion]

I think Cris said it well, and it's the fact that life doesn't require a protective god to make it bearable that rings most true. Religion makes you weak as it shelters you from any type of responsibility or closure. You never really see the final "end" of anything, as there is always "the afterlife" and things of the sort.

With all that protection, the mere thought of taking on a problem or a crisis without some sort of omnipotent creator will shake your foundation. But from the perspective of someone who never really bought into any of that, there's nothing so terrible that I cannot handle myself.

On that note, religion just takes human structures and expounds on them; for example, having god as the crutch to lean on in difficult times merely takes the place of what's already there in our lives. Don't you have a family? Don't you have friends? That, to me, is just as good, if not better, than having some unseen force helping me during the bad times. I'd rather have a living, breathing person there with me when I'm down or in trouble.

One thing Cris has stuck by in the threads I've seen him on is that a god isn't necissary. I'm a little wary of his adament "God doesn't exist" stance, because of course one cannot say for sure one way or the other, but as far as I can see, there is no instance where the presence of a god is required.

Hope that helps.
JD

 

[LostInThought7]

It may seem that an atheist gains no emotional satisfaction from his beliefs, but I would disagree.

I am not speaking on the behalf of all atheists, just me.

1> By knowing that there is no god or "higher power" to protect me, I learn to rely on myself. Many times I think that I cannot go on, but then I find a way. I find a way, because I know that I must. What does not kill me strengthens me. I learn from my mistakes. I am content with my life.

2> I believe that there is no life after death. To many (including myself, sometimes), this may seem very depressing. When I sit down and think about it, though, it is uplifting. I am alive now. I have the power and will to do anything that I want. I have never seriously considered suicide (not recently, anyway) because when I get to really thinking, I find that I am not willing to dissolve into nothingness yet. There is too much beauty in the world; I'm not going to leave it all just because some short-term challenge has got me down. I want to live.

3> Since I consider evolution to be the most probably way of our "creation", I see that humans aren't special, divinely chosen, or magical. Many times, the thought "my life is meaningless" creeps into my mind, but it is quickly countered with "Then, you know what you must do? Make your own meaning, Create your own purpose". This usually gives me the feeling of independence and relief.

4> I try to test every new theory I hear by seeing if it makes sense to my logic/personal experience. After making a decision about the theory, I then turn the focus on myself and try to analyze why I made the decision that I did. If it is because I am naturally biased (by my bitterness, anger, rebellious nature, etc.) or because I would gain more pleasure by believing that way, I try to take another look at it all. I gain satisfaction from knowing that I am trying my best not to fall into any lies.

~Be illuminated by the light. See. Know. Feel. Exist.
~Shake off the shackles of shadows.
~The light is the truth. We live in truth and truth in us.
~To deny truth is to deny ourselves.

*Disclaimer*
My beliefs are subject to change. What I believe is only my opinion; I could be wrong (it's happened before).

 

[LostInThought7]

Originally posted by sargentlard
...those atheists were hedonistic bastards...

Every human seeks pleasure. I see nothing wrong with that, unless it hurts me, others, or themselves. Of course, not all pleasure is derived some self-centered actions...

Originally posted by sargentlard
...we were told to hate atheists due to their blasphemous nature.

I have self-worth. I owe nothing to God. Even if he did exist and was all loving and stuff, yeah I'd be thankful, but I wouldn't grovel in his presence. The reason I'd be thankful is because he gave me life, freedom, dignity. To grovel is to lose it. If he created me just so I could be his little plaything, made to worship him, then I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him...that vain bastard.

Originally posted by sargentlard
Human history has been tainted with blood so how could people not believe in some reward waiting for their services, their suffering, and their courage to endure the torment and keep their principles at bay. It is the sense of relief and awe at what awaits us eventually, that it will all be better.

If they do not feel a reward on earth, then it probably isn't something worth serving/suffering/enduring. If they believe that it is right thing to do, that should be reward enough.

Originally posted by sargentlard
This comes from someone who is too much of a wimp to even admit that the idea of god doesn't appeal to him anymore but he clings on to it just in case god is real.....pathetic yes, but when all your life you have been told god is real but never been told why you question his validity yet fear his denial.

I know exactly where you are. First you must realize that "God" may not be as others say he is. But if he is (wrathful, jealous, straight-up cruel), then you must decide whether you actually want to serve such a being. Even though I don't believe in God, if Jehovah God did exist, and I had clear proof of it, I would fight against him, be I damned or not, because I believe that he is evil. There are more important things than me; if I have to go to hell to help protect others (which is what I believe I would be doing), then so be it.

 

[thefountainhed]

Sarge...

Well I think that your notion of a God is flawed in many ways, but I suppose that is outside the topic. As for me, I am logically convinced that I can never know that there is or isn't a God--this God not being the overly decorated God of any major religion. When I become conscious of the fact that there probably is no God, I have to reconcile myself with this need to pursue all the hedonistic pleasures this reality has to offer and go make money the ‘easy way’-- and there are lots. This is the cause of a deep, unexplainable (And I have psychoanalyzed myself to see if this is from external sources, and there aren’t) awareness that I am unable to accept that my existence was chanced. You see Sarge, if you have developed and still hold on to the notion of a protective deity that you can turn to for consolation in times of need, and are also worried about accepting that you are chanced, there really is no need to completely abandon the notion of a God. Believing in a God serves a purpose in that it seemingly allows you to hope in times of seeming uncontrollability. As long as you do not escape responsibility by throwing all on this God, then by all means, keep at least on the subconscious level, this belief that offers you hope.

 

[matnay]

The next time you face an obstical in life when you're up against a wall that you would normally ask God to get you over, do this. Tell God to fuck off. Tell God that you're tired of giving his lazy ass all the credit for everything good that happens in your life. Tell him that just as many bad things happen to good people that are blamed on the devil, so what difference does it really make if there is a God or not. Besides, God would just as easily perform the work of the devil and then say it is part of his good plan. Tell him that you don't want to be a part of his stupid plan anymore.

You will see that things have a way of getting better through personal effort and other natural courses. You will see no dramatic changes in your life after you banish God from your life. Things will run just as smoothly.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by matnay
The next time you face an obstical in life when you're up against a wall that you would normally ask God to get you over, do this. Tell God to fuck off. Tell God that you're tired of giving his lazy ass all the credit for everything good that happens in your life. Tell him that just as many bad things happen to good people that are blamed on the devil, so what difference does it really make if there is a God or not. Besides, God would just as easily perform the work of the devil and then say it is part of his good plan. Tell him that you don't want to be a part of his stupid plan anymore.

You will see that things have a way of getting better through personal effort and other natural courses. You will see no dramatic changes in your life after you banish God from your life. Things will run just as smoothly.

matnay, you're a genius! This is what it's all about--taking responsibility for your own life. How often do we hear, "I gave it to God," "God will take care of me.", etc.? That's such a cop-out. If there is a God who created us, then WE have the "power and glory" to create the outcome of our own lives.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Sarge

I ask the atheists who do you go in time of need?

Sarge, that is an excellent and courageous question you posted.
I am an atheist and I did not have a quick and easy answer for
this; although, after some analysis I did come up with something
(mind you this may only be relvant to myself as I have no analysis
correlating my experiences to others).

I took the approach of mapping out all the times in my life that the
shit really hit the fan (a trip down unpleasant memory-lane if you
would). I then asked myself these questions:

1) Who or what was really there for me?
2) What got me through the experience?

To answer question 1) I had the following immediate ideas:

1) Friends & Famlily

But then I realized something. When confronted with a really
negative experience I usually found myself 'acting' like I was
still affected by the experience long after I was truly recovered.
Why did I do this? Primarily because my 'recovery time' was too
short, and this would have made any friends / family involved
in the negative experience feel quite unfomefortable; thus,
presenting a whole new range of potential problems. By acting
the part and thusly giving the perception of a reasonable recovery
time I was able to avoid additional and potentially unpredictable
problems at the cost of a perceptual lie (acting). What this means
(more importantly) is that friends and family are really not the
answer to 1). This left me with:

1) Myself

So how did I console myself? How did I comefort myself? How
did I help myself conquer the shit flying around me? As silly as
it sounds it was nothing more than memory and imagination.
I remembered:

* Fun events in real life.
* Fun events from dreams (the REM type).
* Cool music.
* Things that really interested me.
* Anything else that put a smile on my face by jimminy.

and I would build upon these memories with my imagination and
launch myself into the future / fantasy.

This little exercise (quite healthy in my opinion) of memory &
imagination is what did / does it for me. So, the answers to both questions are:

1) Myself
2) Positive memories and my imagination

If you were to expand the scope of YOUR question to:

Q: I ask the atheists who and / or what do you go to in time of
need?

then my answer is:

A: My own positive memories and imagination.

and I am fairly confident this gets me through things faster
and more effeciently than those who rely on a complex belief
system.

-CC

 

[Quantum Quack]

Is it an atheistic act to believe in the universe as opposed to some diety sitting on a throne?

For when I look at the universe with me in it I see God, not a single sentient God but an incredible omni sentient universe.

Am I an atheist?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Is it an atheistic act to believe in the universe as opposed to some diety sitting on a throne?

For when I look at the universe with me in it I see God, not a single sentient God but an incredible omni sentient universe.

Am I an atheist?

Not technically, but you are confusing the image with the reflection. You can see God in everything except sin, which brings me to Crunchy Cat. Yes, that is what it all boils down to: yourself. I would have followed the same line of reasoning, but when I get to "A: My own positive memories and imagination", I realize that I have no reason to trust myself to consistently "be there when I need me". But the funny thing is, at the times I am at my worst - depressed, defeated, hopeless, and disappointed with myself - is when I see myself most clearly. It hard to lie through tears. And everytime God has been closer to me than I have been to myself. God was who I wish to be myself, but instead of trying to be "god", I would recognize another figure, Christ. And that closes the gap for me every time.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You can see God in everything except sin,

Can I ask how You can absolve your God of sin? Did he not create sin or the environment that allowed sin to prosper?

 

[sargentlard]

Thank you to those who replied.

Well what you have recommended here has been seen as an option by me but you must understand this isn't something like smoking where one can eventually give it up or go cold turkey. I want to not believe yet i am afraid and even though i see what you people mean i just can't seem to apply into practice.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Can I ask how You can absolve your God of sin? Did he not create sin or the environment that allowed sin to prosper?

Do you blame Henry Ford for creating road accidents, or do you blame the people driving his cars?

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by sargentlard
Thank you to those who replied.

Well what you have recommended here has been seen as an option by me but you must understand this isn't something like smoking where one can eventually give it up or go cold turkey. I want to not believe yet i am afraid and even though i see what you people mean i just can't seem to apply into practice.

It comes down to whether you believe God ultimately created you, or if you are the product of "stuff that happened by itself". Which one is the logical, reasonable option?

Whether you think suffering is nature letting you down or God letting you down makes no difference. What you see is what you get. Atheists will tell you it's all equally logical or illogical. Depending on your question, they will tell you that your existence is logical, but everything that happens to you is illogical. But if your existence is illogical, then why dismiss God's existence because it's also illogical? Isn't that a bit biased? Faith, hope and love are all things that exist in defiance of the logic people think should apply. Whether you agree with their content or not, they still exist, don't they?

 

[Balerion]

Jenyar,

It comes down to whether you believe God ultimately created you, or if you are the product of "stuff that happened by itself". Which one is the logical, reasonable option?

Isn't putting "stuff that happened by itself" in quotation marks being a bit biased? That implies that it's so rediculous you won't even say it yourself. And if you want to talk reason and logic, what the hell is so logical about God? An unseen creator who was never born nor will ever die? A being who, for reasons unknown, created this race and put it in an enviroment where sin is unavoidable but punishable by eternal damnation? Where is the logic? Don't give me that "He works in mysterious ways" bullshit either, because we are talking logic and reason here.

Whether you think suffering is nature letting you down or God letting you down makes no difference.

Yes it does, Jenyar. If you believe that god is letting you down, then you will feel lost and helpless in your time of need. After all, this thing is your creator, your maker, and he isn't coming through in your time of need. All your faith is put into this thing, yet it doesn't deliver. How crushing is that?

If you don't believe in God, then you can see why things happen, you feel more in control--if not directly, at least you know the circumstances behind whatever's wrong. You can learn and prevent.

Atheists will tell you it's all equally logical or illogical.

What? What's illogical is that answer.

Depending on your question, they will tell you that your existence is logical, but everything that happens to you is illogical

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Our existance is logical, I suppose, because we are here, and as far as we can see, there is no reason to rule out life happening on other planets. So, existance is logical.

What happens to us is logical as well. If someone walks up to you and shoots you in the face, while that may seem illogical, there is a perfect explanation somewhere. Maybe the shooter has a mental illness or an imbalance, and he really felt it neccisary to kill someone. To him, shooting you in the face is completely logical. (It's becoming more logical to me as well, with every post of yours I see)

But if your existence is illogical, then why dismiss God's existence because it's also illogical?

Again, existance isn't illogical. When we find the life on another planet, the debate will end; life can happen elsewhere. There's no reason to believe that it can't. We aren't the only planet in a solar system which is at a location which is kind to the evolutionary process. Shoot, Mars probably had life of some kind at some point. And if you want to get a little controversial, scientists say it's completely logical to assume one possibility that human life may have come from Mars via Earth rocks landing there. It's not a fact, but it's possible.

God's existance is illogical in the sense that it isn't necissary. Granted, in the role your god plays, there is no back-door; meaning that there is no way to explain him away. No matter where you look, "God did it" and he's "invisible, so you can't see his works" or "he did it, but through natural scientific process." So, logic doesn't work in your circle, but there is something to be said of nature and how it evidences against your god.

Everything in nature relies on something else in one way or another. Hence the food chain. Take humans out of the picture, for example, and deer populations would increase at a rate which would lead to starvation and death of thousands upon thousands of deer. Plant life would suffer tremendously as well. Same goes for Tiger and Lions. Knock off either of those, and their prey grows in numbers and there is tremendous suffering and death. Moreso than if Lions and Tigers existed. It can be reversed as well: If the prey wasn't there for the Lions or Tigers, what would become of them? They'd die out.

It's like life on Earth is a team, and when you're missing an element of it, the whole suffers. Life on a hockey team without a goalie, or a center. If the Red Wings didn't have Dominic Hasek, they wouldn't be half as sucessful as they are.

But where is god in this? You, of course, will say that God is the thing that puts the team together, like the General Manager. But truth is, evolution is the General Manager. We don't need God for evolution, and he doesn't play any role in any part of life on Earth.

Faith, hope and love are all things that exist in defiance of the logic people think should apply. Whether you agree with their content or not, they still exist, don't they?

OK, as a disclaimer to Sargentlard, Jenyar isn't a good example of a logical, reasonable person. He isn't intelligent, nor does he have common sense. Truth is, faith, hope and love all exist, and it's completely logical that they do. They all are emotions, and they serve a purpose. Love will keep you with your mate, which leads to better chances of your offspring's survival; faith is something for the weak, but it helps them survive as well. Without it, they would go mad, obviously; And hope is something that lets you get on in your day, that makes you strive for a goal which ultimately will satisfy you, wrong or right.

They are all chemical and electrical happenings in your brain, and completely logical. It's Jenyar's emotionalism which prevents him from realizing this. And trust me, he's had it explained to him about a billion times, yet he flat-out refuses to accept it.

See, sargentlard, you could be just like Jenyar. If you keep on believing and accepting the word of this non-existant figurehead, you too could be ignorant to truth, and void of logic or reason. What's the logical and reasonable explanation? That we are here, and we have an idea of how we came to be, and that we are striving to find more. Keep striving, and keep learning, and asking questions. Don't fall into the trap theists put in front of you, where all the knowledge you need is already there, because it isn't.


JD

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by JDawg
Isn't putting "stuff that happened by itself" in quotation marks being a bit biased? That implies that it's so rediculous you won't even say it yourself. And if you want to talk reason and logic, what the hell is so logical about God? An unseen creator who was never born nor will ever die? A being who, for reasons unknown, created this race and put it in an enviroment where sin is unavoidable but punishable by eternal damnation? Where is the logic? Don't give me that "He works in mysterious ways" bullshit either, because we are talking logic and reason here.

Of course it is biased, because I don't believe it myself. The quotations were unnecessary I admit, but it's a habit I have.

My argument was that God's existence is no more or less logical than ours. He is only illogical in comparison to us. Rocks are illogical if you compare them to snails. The similarities we are supposed to share with God does not make us authorities on His existence.

For the rest of your argument, you might as well have asked, what is the logic of love. You contend that is is purely to keep you with your mate. Do you see that happening? Love becomes a less and less logical alternative, as people "accept" their natural impulses. If you were correct, it would have happened the othe way around. Unless we have outgrown the need to love, which I seriously doubt you would defend. Besides, what about love where love is indeed illogical, where it holds no evident benefit to yourself even remotely?

Yes it does, Jenyar. If you believe that god is letting you down, then you will feel lost and helpless in your time of need. After all, this thing is your creator, your maker, and he isn't coming through in your time of need. All your faith is put into this thing, yet it doesn't deliver. How crushing is that?

What else will you do with all your faith? God isn't a bank account you know. And it shouldn't be crushing. You can be crushed, but faith is what makes it possible to get up and go on after you have lost everything. Exhibit A: Job. God always comes though, the real trouble is with people who don't. It's one of the foundations of my own faith, that I can trust God to be there even when everything else has failed. In my times of need I realize what really matters. Sure, I would like to be richer, happier, not have to deal with death and disappointment, but that's all part of life. Nobody said God would put as in a different world for believing in Him, but He does create in ourselves a different "world".

If you don't believe in God, then you can see why things happen, you feel more in control--if not directly, at least you know the circumstances behind whatever's wrong. You can learn and prevent.

Oh, and my faith prevents me from that? Can't I learn and prevent as well? I don't need to feel in control over things I have no control over. While I know God is in control, I also know that doesn't have to mean what I would hope it does. There will always be people who do not fear God who will rape, steal and destroy as if they will not be held accountable. There are still laws of nature that show no mercy.

What? What's illogical is that answer.

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

For instance, you say life is logical. Yet you can't prove it logically. Some more liberal atheists hold that life is eternal chaos in a fleeting, momentary order. Even that is a kind of logic. In a universe where life and the universe it inhabits was created, a Creator is perfectly logical.

Our existance is logical, I suppose, because we are here, and as far as we can see, there is no reason to rule out life happening on other planets. So, existance is logical.

That's forced logic, based on "what if". If life will only become logical when we discover other life, then what is it now? Face it, you aren't basing your logic on information you already have, but on information you still hope to gain. I don't see why there can't be other life, after all, angels are supposed to be alive.

I believe in God and you don't, so you believe in one less extraterrestial Being, and I should be the one doubting we are special. Just a thought.

What happens to us is logical as well. If someone walks up to you and shoots you in the face, while that may seem illogical, there is a perfect explanation somewhere. Maybe the shooter has a mental illness or an imbalance, and he really felt it neccisary to kill someone. To him, shooting you in the face is completely logical. (It's becoming more logical to me as well, with every post of yours I see)

You can say life is logical, but how does that make a random car accident logical? I don't want to get involved in this now, but which came first, chaos or logic?

Being able to explain something does not make it logical, as anybody who has ever been cheated on will attest. What you are saying is that logic is relative. Surely that's just chaos with circumstantial instances of order? It's definetly not an all-encompassing logic. The logic you speak of can't be representative of the whole system. It's nothing but meaning attributed to an otherwise meaningless action. The murderer might have had a reason, but that doesn't make his action reasonable.

Everything in nature relies on something else in one way or another. Hence the food chain. Take humans out of the picture, for example, and deer populations would increase at a rate which would lead to starvation and death of thousands upon thousands of deer. Plant life would suffer tremendously as well. Same goes for Tiger and Lions. Knock off either of those, and their prey grows in numbers and there is tremendous suffering and death. Moreso than if Lions and Tigers existed. It can be reversed as well: If the prey wasn't there for the Lions or Tigers, what would become of them? They'd die out.

It's like life on Earth is a team, and when you're missing an element of it, the whole suffers. Life on a hockey team without a goalie, or a center. If the Red Wings didn't have Dominic Hasek, they wouldn't be half as sucessful as they are.

But where is god in this? You, of course, will say that God is the thing that puts the team together, like the General Manager. But truth is, evolution is the General Manager. We don't need God for evolution, and he doesn't play any role in any part of life on Earth.

God created everything to work. If evolution is neccessary for life to "work", then its general necessity would make it seem like it is the controlling factor, but it might only seem that way because you can't imagine a larger controlling factor. You simply don't have the priviledge to know what life without God would be like. An analogy could be, what would life without sustenance look like? Dead.

OK, as a disclaimer to Sargentlard, Jenyar isn't a good example of a logical, reasonable person. He isn't intelligent, nor does he have common sense. Truth is, faith, hope and love all exist, and it's completely logical that they do. They all are emotions, and they serve a purpose. Love will keep you with your mate, which leads to better chances of your offspring's survival; faith is something for the weak, but it helps them survive as well. Without it, they would go mad, obviously; And hope is something that lets you get on in your day, that makes you strive for a goal which ultimately will satisfy you, wrong or right.

They are all chemical and electrical happenings in your brain, and completely logical. It's Jenyar's emotionalism which prevents him from realizing this. And trust me, he's had it explained to him about a billion times, yet he flat-out refuses to accept it.

I refuse to accept that explanations are the end of meaning. You are staring at the roof and won't except there might be a universe above it. Sure there are electrical and chemical happenings in the brain. But are you a slave to them? Have you never not acted on impulse? Have you never chose a wife? Is one potential mother of your children just as good as another? You accept that we are born with some kind of subconscious, self-preserving knowledge, like which features would make your children better suited for survival, yet you deny that belief in God might be one of those self-preserving impulses. If you don't have knwoledge about the origin over one kind of instinct, why presume you have knowledge over the validity of another? Why should SargentLard suppress an instinct because you don't realize its significance?

How do you, ultimately, know what is good for you or for him?

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by sargentlard
I want to not believe yet i am afraid and even though i see what you people mean i just can't seem to apply into practice.

Despite being an atheist I find no particular advantage to the dismissal of belief in God. Instead I find that one's approach towards the concept of God is a more immanent concern whether ultimately one believes such a concept to be existent, figurative, or imaginative. Instead of attempting to rid yourself of such belief for which you are not emotionally prepared I would suggest analyzing what you are willing to believe or disbelieve about God and that which still binds you to the belief (perhaps you have already done so). An honest and rational approach usually reveals the foibles and errors of common conceptions of God and (as Tiassa would say) disarms the concept. Ultimately, it is likely that you will find that the concept of God you retain is generally unproblematic. Disbelief then carries far less of an effect than one might generally presume.

~Raithere

 

[Cris]

Jenyar,

It comes down to whether you believe God ultimately created you, or if you are the product of "stuff that happened by itself". Which one is the logical, reasonable option?

It would help if the statement was re-written in an unbiased and objective manner. Let’s try again.

It comes down to whether you believe an alleged unobserved and so far undetected supernatural force had some form of unknown influence on your existence, or whether you are the product of an evolutionary process of which many have been observed and have factual support.

Since logic is based on fact then which is the more logical and reasonable option.