A Livable Minimum Wage

I made up English words?
Couldn't manage to parse the word "term", huh?
Bad choices cost poor people more than they cost rich people.
That depends on the choice. The rich can lose millions in a bad investment overnight.
Well obviously you can't calculate a meaningful minimum cost of living by assuming large and voluntary expenditures must be included for some people but not others.
There's that made up term again. Cost of living is calculated around a certain standard of living. Anyone who denies that the rich and poor have different standards of living is just daffy.
No. You appear to be confusing authoritarian or oppressive governance of all kinds with the unique kind named "fascism".
It's an English word, it has a meaning, and that meaning is not "bad".
Authoritarianism and oppression both feature prominently in fascism. Authoritarianism allows limited freedom, but fascism is extreme.
Seems you understood just fine, despite your protests.
Did I sound excited about your claim of class warfare? I'm not. It's kind of depressing, actually - for one thing, the wrong class is winning. For another, when an entire Party is corrupted into fascism, and there's only two Parties, elections become grim choices. I'm not that fond of the Democrats, and now I'm trapped.
I'm not really buying any of that. If you think the "wrong class is winning", you seem to have a pony in that race.
Between that and the hyperbolic partisan rhetoric, it all sounds like trolling.
So do they introduce themselves..hi I am Joe and I am trailer trash and proud of it.
Trailer trash, redneck, etc. and proud of it.
My perception may not reflect reality and maybe folk are happy to call themselves white trash or trailer trash and those terms dont reflect class hatred at all.
No more than blacks calling each other "nigga" represents class hatred. That would be a strange sort of self-class-hatred.
Not having a better health care system seems odd.
There is no doubt that the United States takes the lead in world-class health care research. It runs the most clinical trials of any OECD country. The FDA has a shorter drug approval process than many other countries including Australia so new treatments are more readily accessible. It also leads the world in cancer treatments in areas and has one of the highest 5-year survival rates for breast cancer and colon cancer [5]. If you have adequate coverage, the wait time for specialist appointment or elective surgery is among the lowest of all OECD countries [5].
https://onthewards.org/the-inside-s...-of-the-us-and-australian-healthcare-systems/
I may be wrong but your attitude seems along the lines that folk are poor because they did not make the right decision which seems not only incredibly simplistic but most heartless.

If they are poor for whatever reason shouldnt they be given help?
Ever heard of enabling? It's actually more heartless to make excuses and string them along with crumbs that keep them a permanent underclass than to help them make better decisions and improve their lot in life. Teach a man to fish...
Renting is listed as a bad choice, as is reading anything other than self-help books and the like. Watching reality TV is listed as bad, watching other kinds of TV is ok. Failing to create three income streams is listed as a bad choice. Using a credit card for a major expenditure is a bad choice. Any time spent not earning money or preparing to earn money is time wasted.

Seriously?

I think he overlooked the major and most common bad choice: getting born to the wrong parents.
Haha! So all those are great choices, but circumstance is the bad choice that damns you to a life of hell?
 
It's actually more heartless to make excuses and string them along with crumbs that keep them a permanent underclass than to help them make better decisions and improve their lot in life.

So poverty will disappear in how many years?

And those who for whatever reason fail to be enabled ...what of them?

Clearly the world is changing and jobs for poor folk are disappearing well for all workers jobs are disappearing so there will have to be a lot of enabling one could think.

And yet major corporations find the best way to increase the profit and hence the top dogs return on share options and the like is to enable workers by laying them off and to introduce efficiencies in all areas except the area of reducing rather high remuneration packages for themselves.

Oh they get big money because etc etc whereas I bet anyone with an education could do their job...in fact it would seem I have found the perfect area to implement artificial inteligence as no doubt an appropriate algorithm would make the right call more efficiently than a human.


But please dont think I have any answers other than distribute wealth such that the gap between rich and poor is not so hideously wide.

A poor person can't get a break with a minimum wage yet company execs and high government officials award themselves pay rises in excess of the annual wage of a poor worker...there's your problem.

Alex
 
Couldn't manage to parse the word "term", huh?
Words in a row like that don't confuse me as they seem to confuse you.
Cost of living is calculated around a certain standard of living
Not a minimum cost of living. It wouldn't make any sense at all to calculate a minimum cost of living like that.
Authoritarianism and oppression both feature prominently in fascism.
But not vice versa, which is what appears to be your confusion. Bears are mammals, but mammals are not necessarily bears, to illustrate.
That depends on the choice. The rich can lose millions in a bad investment overnight.
That would cost the poor more, also. They'd probably never dig out again.
I'm not really buying any of that. If you think the "wrong class is winning", you seem to have a pony in that race.
Yep. If the wealthy win this class war, the consequences will include the degradation of my country, community, family, and surrounding landscape. That would be bad, imho.
So all those are great choices,
I was amused at the thought of renting instead of buying a house being a choice, for example, for someone earning minimum wage. Likewise the "three streams of income", saving 20% of one's income, not incurring credit card debt, and so forth.
According to your guy there, people who become rich have focused their lives on becoming rich, accumulating monetary wealth, to the exclusion of everything else. I find that unsurprising, and not very informative, and a good argument for not letting rich people get too much power and control of the place.
There is no doubt that the United States takes the lead in world-class health care research. It runs the most clinical trials of any OECD country. The FDA has a shorter drug approval process than many other countries including Australia so new treatments are more readily accessible. It also leads the world in cancer treatments in areas and has one of the highest 5-year survival rates for breast cancer and colon cancer [5]. If you have adequate coverage, the wait time for specialist appointment or elective surgery is among the lowest of all OECD countries
None of that measures health care. By outcome - lifespan after diagnosis - The US has the worst health care system in the First World, and measured by efficiency - bang for the buck - maybe the worst on the planet. Everyone else with worse outcome stats at least doesn't waste so much money.

If the minimum wage were set at a level that paid for US health care, it would have to triple. And until it does, poor people in the US will not get standard First World health care.
.
 
Last edited:
I don't think those are mutually exclusive. And conditioned is a far cry from society deeming what people are entitled to.
Whether submission is due to ideological indoctrination, logical appeal to reason, or threat of punishment, it all still amounts to a conditioned response fostered by one’s society. Our behaviors are largely governed by our environments, and for most of us that equates to our societies.

aka perceptive reality as a passenger of the system and society ?
It’s the only game we know.
thus not being an active interactive member... ?
Existence implies active interaction.
....and/or ... only doing what your told to do ?
how does that work in a non communist society ?
We all do what someone or something tells us to do, regardless of the social environment.
 
That depends on the choice. The rich can lose millions in a bad investment overnight.
That is exactly right. And the next day they will reassess and invest their remaining millions somewhere else.

Compare that to a retired couple who are (barely) living off their 401K. They might only lose $100,000. They will, most likely, not recover from that, and will die in poverty.

There is a difference in outcomes there.
I'm not really buying any of that. If you think the "wrong class is winning", you seem to have a pony in that race.
Everyone in the US has a "pony" in the "race" between rich and poor. And if the result of that race is that the rich win, and the gap widens so far that they always win and there is no way to cross the gap - then everyone loses in the long term. There are no good outcomes from a permanent two class society.
Ever heard of enabling? It's actually more heartless to make excuses and string them along with crumbs that keep them a permanent underclass than to help them make better decisions and improve their lot in life. Teach a man to fish...
Good example. So we should be spending far more money on education, vocational schools, two year colleges etc to teach those people to fish.
Haha! So all those are great choices, but circumstance is the bad choice that damns you to a life of hell?
Circumstance isn't a bad choice; it's bad luck.
 
So poverty will disappear in how many years?
Might as well ask how long people will make bad decisions.
And those who for whatever reason fail to be enabled ...what of them?
Doesn't sound like you understand what negative behavior enabling is.
But please dont think I have any answers other than distribute wealth such that the gap between rich and poor is not so hideously wide.

A poor person can't get a break with a minimum wage yet company execs and high government officials award themselves pay rises in excess of the annual wage of a poor worker...there's your problem.
That's just class warfare.
Words in a row like that don't confuse me as they seem to confuse you.
Idiosyncratic term that conflates personal choices with the well-defined cost of living.
Not a minimum cost of living. It wouldn't make any sense at all to calculate a minimum cost of living like that.
Idiosyncratic nonsense.
But not vice versa, which is what appears to be your confusion.
You didn't quote, "Authoritarianism allows limited freedom, but fascism is extreme."
"Not allowing voluntary action" is extreme.
But go ahead and continue your irrelevant pedantry. Looks like you're having fun.
That would cost the poor more, also. They'd probably never dig out again.
The poor don't invest millions. Little thing called reality. Look into it.
Yep. If the wealthy win this class war, the consequences will include the degradation of my country, community, family, and surrounding landscape. That would be bad, imho.
Yep, you sound pretty worked up over class warfare. Doom and gloom.
I was amused at the thought of renting instead of buying a house being a choice, for example, for someone earning minimum wage.
Again, where was minimum wage ever meant to buy a house?
None of that measures health care. By outcome - lifespan after diagnosis - The US has the worst health care system in the First World, and measured by efficiency - bang for the buck - maybe the worst on the planet. Everyone else with worse outcome stats at least doesn't waste so much money.
"new treatments are more readily accessible"
"one of the highest 5-year survival rates for breast cancer and colon cancer"
"wait time for specialist appointment or elective surgery is among the lowest of all OECD countries"
Whether submission is due to ideological indoctrination, logical appeal to reason, or threat of punishment, it all still amounts to a conditioned response fostered by one’s society. Our behaviors are largely governed by our environments, and for most of us that equates to our societies.
So you think voluntary and conditioned are mutually exclusive?
Any conditioning removes all possibility of voluntary action?
That is exactly right. And the next day they will reassess and invest their remaining millions somewhere else.

Compare that to a retired couple who are (barely) living off their 401K. They might only lose $100,000. They will, most likely, not recover from that, and will die in poverty.

There is a difference in outcomes there.
People move out of the 1% all the time, so it seems some are substantially affected.
Some 11% of Americans will join the Top 1% for at least one year during their prime working lives (age 25 to 60), according to research done by Thomas Hirschl, a sociology professor at Cornell University. But only 5.8% will be in it for two years or more.

As for holding onto this status for at least 10 years? Only a miniscule 1.1% of Americans are this fortunate.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/07/news/economy/top-1/index.html
And if anyone already retired still has high-risk investments they can't afford to lose, it's a bad decision not to move those to low-risk ones.
Bad choices are those we cannot afford to make, and they are different for different people.
Everyone in the US has a "pony" in the "race" between rich and poor. And if the result of that race is that the rich win, and the gap widens so far that they always win and there is no way to cross the gap - then everyone loses in the long term. There are no good outcomes from a permanent two class society.
Is "everyone keep what they earn" a pony?
The middle class is shrinking because more of them have gotten richer. And that's true for the lower middle and poor as well.
Good example. So we should be spending far more money on education, vocational schools, two year colleges etc to teach those people to fish.
No, we spend far too much on education because government loans have tipped the scale. More of that for people who may not be good with finances will only further sink them in crushing debt. And handouts are enabling.
There should be taxes incentives for vocational/business partnerships, since that's the best return on investment.
Circumstance isn't a bad choice; it's bad luck.
Tell iceaura that: "I think he overlooked the major and most common bad choice: getting born to the wrong parents."
 
Is "everyone keep what they earn" a pony?
Nope.
The middle class is shrinking because more of them have gotten richer. And that's true for the lower middle and poor as well.
Nope. Lowest quintile hasn't seen any increase in real wages since 1970. Dramatic increases in income for top 20%, no change in income for bottom 20% = increasingly stratified society and a disappearing middle class.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/pover...ics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality
No, we spend far too much on education. . . .
So: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. But don't teach him to fish; it's too expensive."
Tell iceaura that: "I think he overlooked the major and most common bad choice: getting born to the wrong parents."
You may have missed his point there.
 
Is "everyone keep what they earn" a pony?
Nope.
Damn, I guess I don't have a horse in the class warfare.
Nope. Lowest quintile hasn't seen any increase in real wages since 1970. Dramatic increases in income for top 20%, no change in income for bottom 20% = increasingly stratified society and a disappearing middle class.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/pover...ics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality
That's only a measure of income inequality, not class in absolute income. And it doesn't account for class mobility, seeming to assume the same people always stay in the same class.
So: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. But don't teach him to fish; it's too expensive."
Incentivize businesses to help teach.
But I guess it's fun to make straw men by selective quoting.
You may have missed his point there.
Are circumstances insurmountable?
 
That's only a measure of income inequality, not class in absolute income.
Correct. It is a measure of _adjusted_ income (i.e. real purchasing power.)
And it doesn't account for class mobility, seeming to assume the same people always stay in the same class.
It assumes no such thing, nor does it purport to. It shows simple adjusted incomes of each income bracket.

However, other studies indicate that upward income mobility is drastically decreasing. In 1940, 90% of children of families in that income quintile made more than their parents. As of 1980 it was down to 55% - and has been declining ever since.
https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/fading-american-dream.pdf
Incentivize businesses to help teach.
How?
But I guess it's fun to make straw men by selective quoting.
So what is the entire "teach a man to fish" quote? What part did I leave out?
Are circumstances insurmountable?
Nope. They just make things easier or harder.
 
Might as well ask how long people will make bad decisions.
May as well as anything is better than attempting to address the problem of poverty.

The bad decisions are being made by greedy folk with the power to effect meaningful change who fail to learn from history and the horror that is revolution.

Sure let it get to a stage where the are two classes. .the very rich and the very poor and then lets see what happens.
Doesn't sound like you understand what negative behavior enabling is.
Probably not but I guess it means dont try and help folk because they will only get used to a passing expectation of equality and reasonable distribution of resources.

Its just such a pity that to make good decisions these days you need a college education and these poor folk just wont decide to go to college. . Why wouldnt they decide to go to college one could wonder.

That certainly is where they make their first major bad decision.
That's just class warfare.
I suppose you are right.

An expectation of a more reasonable wealth distribution would certainly have the rich going to war I mean how dare anyone suggest they are not entitled to everything ...

Look let the rich be rich but please consider the benefits of an economy where all have meaning to their existence and better still a means to move more money around such that the nation as a whole may benefit...dont you think the place would be better with a larger middle class and a small group in poverty?
Not only morally sound but makes reasonable economic sense.
Alex
 
Correct. It is a measure of _adjusted_ income (i.e. real purchasing power.)
Is family size and composition a measure of "real purchasing power?"
However, other studies indicate that upward income mobility is drastically decreasing. In 1940, 90% of children of families in that income quintile made more than their parents. As of 1980 it was down to 55% - and has been declining ever since.
https://inequality.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/fading-american-dream.pdf
I wonder what's changed since 1940.
Maybe you should have read it the first time I said it.
There should be taxes incentives for vocational/business partnerships, since that's the best return on investment.
So what is the entire "teach a man to fish" quote? What part did I leave out?
See above, where I just quoted the part you fail to in order to make your "But don't teach him to fish; it's too expensive" straw man.
Nope. They just make things easier or harder.
Exactly.

The bad decisions are being made by greedy folk with the power to effect meaningful change who fail to learn from history and the horror that is revolution.
More class warfare nonsense.
Individuals making their own good decisions is the best motor for meaningful change throughout history.
Class revolution is people blaming others instead of taking responsibility for themselves.
Its just such a pity that to make good decisions these days you need a college education and these poor folk just wont decide to go to college.
College has little to do with it.
 
Individuals making their own good decisions is the best motor for meaningful change throughout history.
Yes look at the French revolution and the Russian revolution a fine example of individuals making good decisions...not.
And why did those horrors take place...all those poor folk making bad decisions such that they took it out on all those making the right decisions.

You are clearly well educated and can make good choices but not all can.
Is there no duty upon those more capable to help those less capable.
I bet you studied hard and resent those who did not or could not and so you think as presumably you did it tuff why should others not suffer..I did it tuff...useless education. Had to work a full time job but go to uni at night and do a cleaning job in the morning before the 9 to 5 job...and I made a fortune and lost it and then another ... I could say bugger the poor but I dont...as I said there is the morality but the main issue is economic.
When I left school every one could get work and that is no longer the case and the change in human efficiency will produce more poor...things just need to change to accomodate the new reality.
Alex
 
Is family size and composition a measure of "real purchasing power?"
Nope. That would be a measure of family size.
I wonder what's changed since 1940.
The balance between corporate and personal power has shifted dramatically. Corporations now have far more power than they once did; these tend to enrich corporations (and the people who run them) more than people.
 
Again, where was minimum wage ever meant to buy a house?
So you agree your source there was a bit silly about his supposed "choices".
"new treatments are more readily accessible"
"one of the highest 5-year survival rates for breast cancer and colon cancer"
"wait time for specialist appointment or elective surgery is among the lowest of all OECD countries"
Your point?
The US has the worst health care system in the First World, 34th of 34, measured by outcome - performance, lifespan after diagnosis, over the range of common lethal diseases or disorders. And it spends twice as much as any of them except possibly Norway and Switzerland - only outspending them by half or so.
I wonder what's changed since 1940.
Big tax cuts for rich people. Military contract profiteering made standard instead of felony crime. Banks deregulated. Unions busted. College and medical care quintupled in real cost, housing doubled, and all the GI bill and other government benefits expired. Reaganomics came in, and increasing productivity gains were shunted to capital rather than labor.

And so forth.
 
Last edited:
Is family size and composition a measure of "real purchasing power?"
Nope. That would be a measure of family size.
Family size and composition is how they estimated adjusted income in your cited link, which you claimed WAS a measure of "real purchasing power."
Did you not look to see how they estimated their adjusted income?
The balance between corporate and personal power has shifted dramatically. Corporations now have far more power than they once did; these tend to enrich corporations (and the people who run them) more than people.
I don't think that's it. Maybe the New Deal.
And very few companies had their own Washington lobbyists prior to the 1970s. To the extent that businesses did lobby in the 1950s and 1960s (typically through associations), they were clumsy and ineffective.
https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...obbyists-conquered-american-democracy/390822/
Or it seems at least a direct backlash to the New Deal.
Powell was addressing concerns held by conservatives surrounding the New Deal and the Great Society, which included Social Security, the Labor Relations Act, Medicare, Medicaid, and anti-discrimination laws.
https://www.rt.com/usa/357045-powell-memo-corporate-takeover/
Again, where was minimum wage ever meant to buy a house?
So you agree your source there was a bit silly about his supposed "choices".
No idea how you get there from me asking if minimum wage was ever meant to cover buying a house.
Some of those choices do contribute to poverty. Others contribute to not building wealth.
Your point?
The US has the worst health care system in the First World, 34th of 34, measured by outcome - performance, lifespan after diagnosis, over the range of common lethal diseases or disorders. And it spends twice as much as any of them except possibly Norway and Switzerland - only outspending them by half or so.
I don't care about your leftist talking points.
Big tax cuts for rich people. Military contract profiteering made standard instead of felony crime. Banks deregulated. Unions busted. College and medical care quintupled in real cost, housing doubled, and all the GI bill and other government benefits expired. Reaganomics came in, and increasing productivity gains were shunted to capital rather than labor.

And so forth.
No, I don't think so.
 
Some of those choices do contribute to poverty. Others contribute to not building wealth.
The claim that renting rather than buying a house, not saving 20% of one's income, and avoiding commercial debt, are choices made freely by poor people, especially poor black people, is stupid.
Here's a thought: let's set the minimum wage so that its recipients can save 20% of their income - after paying for minimum available housing, food (at the prices in their neighborhood, standard recommended USDA diet), clothing, and medical care. (We'll ignore education - no sense in being ridiculous).
I don't care about your leftist talking points.
- - -
No, I don't think so.
The world in which a list of simple factual realities is a list of leftist talking points, is a deranged world.
 
The claim that renting rather than buying a house, not saving 20% of one's income, and avoiding commercial debt, are choices made freely by poor people, especially poor black people, is stupid.
Here's a thought: let's set the minimum wage so that its recipients can save 20% of their income - after paying for minimum available housing, food (at the prices in their neighborhood, standard recommended USDA diet), clothing, and medical care. (We'll ignore education - no sense in being ridiculous).
Saving is not about income, it's about outlay. Getting a credit card you can't responsibly manage is a choice. Taking a exorbitant payday loan you can't keep up with is a choice. Not putting back even one dollar a week is a choice. Small, but good, choices build on one another.
And for the fifth or sixth time now, when was minimum wage ever meant to buy a house or support a family?
The world in which a list of simple factual realities is a list of leftist talking points, is a deranged world.
I'm sure you believe that, in your little bubble.
 
Saving is not about income, it's about outlay
And minimum cost of living is the outlay involved.
So that's how one would determine a minimum wage that made sense of some guy's claim that the poor fail to save 20% of their income by choice.
And for the fifth or sixth time now, when was minimum wage ever meant to buy a house or support a family?
Whenever renting instead of buying a house was an actual choice for the poor - as seen in your link there.
 
Back
Top