A letter to God

[water]

True, I have implied all men already know where they derive judgment from. In ancient times people might intuitively have thought "God" (while any property beyond a "just" God would have remained obscure). Today people are more careful and less inclined to jump to conclusions. It's a consequence of the game.

It's hard to say that it is just a consequence of the game. Language and reasoning developed parallel as the game took place and developed, and it is safe to say that it is all about mutual influence.
It's not like there were agents, already with certain knowledge, and *then* the game began -- the way two may sit down to a party of chess.

Game Theory says that even though the players are not cooperative, they should become cooperative when the game is repeated enough times. However, this would happen only if the players had not learned anything along the way, and if the environment would not change. -- But playing the game of survival changes knowledge of the players, as well as the environment. So cooperativity is not likely to set in.

But anybody drawn to this feeling for justice of ours can quickly become aware that it has great consequences to the strategy. And anybody drawn away from this feeling must be aware that that, too, has consequences. But who gets excluded by whom? That's less important than the relationship that we see emerging: "good" and "evil". Why do we immediately group good with justice, and evil with injustice?

Good question.

Couldn't it, theoretically, strategically, all be relative, and stay that way?

No. To play a game, you need rules. Or the game doesn't make sense, and everyting is just chaotic. (And humans have this innate property of wanting things to make sense.)
In the long run, rules can appear relative, but in the short run, they are clearly set.

I think our awareness of a parametric world (parametric ceiling) can't be denied, and our interaction with consequences (like guilt, punishment, mercy, innocence) can't be denied either. These aren't relative concepts. We intuitively feel that the parametric world is fixed, that some of these parameters can be known, and that knowing them is good. Those on the side of justice will continually seek to learn more (since the concept of justice is parametric itself) and to conform [right word? your opinion?] more to it. Those threatened by a fixed (or rather, "parametered") world will shy away from it - and end up with little parametric ceilings of their own (necessarily, because their shying away is already a judgment call based on a larger "judgment"). Little gods (and in ancient times: worshipping little silver and gold idols).

We say that objective reality is consistent, and what is inconsistent is our knowledge of it. We could say that objective reality is parametric. But we, since we are limited, do not see the whole of objective reality, we live with/in our interpretations of this objective reality. This makes this reality strategic, that is, our interpretations of the objective reality are necessarily strategic, and this comes from being limited.

However, once we are aware that we are limited, and that objective reality is consistent, and also parametric -- what do we do? We know that as long as we are limited we can not grasp this objective reality in its fulness.

This seems to be the crossroads for believers and non-believers. In an ideal case, the believer will always keep himself in mind of the objective reality and how it is ungraspable for him in its completness, and he will be consistent in this belief that he is limited.

The non-believer, in an ideal case, -- but look, look: thinks *the same*, the only difference is that he doesn't consciously put much hope in his theories and that he uses some different names.

As far as I can see, the non-believer's, ideally, atheist's, stance is trying to be value-neutral. He has explained objective reality and our interactions with it in an analytical way: he has 1. the scientific value-neutral theory about objective reality, 2. a system of values that seems separate from this objective reality.

The believer has a synthetic explanation, the theory of objective reality synthetically, sycnretically joined into an inseparatable and non-analyzable whole with the evaluation of this objective reality.


(I first wanted to make a "dictionary", a "concordance chart" of the terms used by believers and non-believers, and then it struck me that such a chart is not possible, because the thought organization is fundamentally different in the two thinking systems.)

This is the most interesting conversation I've had since I can remember.

Grand.

Hope I'm not come across as too dogmatic.

You aren't.

 

[Jenyar]

The non-believer, in an ideal case, -- but look, look: thinks *the same*, the only difference is that he doesn't consciously put much hope in his theories and that he uses some different names.

This sums up my perception of things: our premises are the same, our pool of knowledge and experience is common, but our language to express it is necessarily unique. The interactions with these theories differ as much as people's personalities differ. Every player is unique, but the playing field is the common.

But on what grounds do believers have faith and hope in spite of this discrepancy? And on what grounds do non-believers dismiss (or accept provisionally)this discrepancy as inconsequential?

As far as I can see, the non-believer's, ideally, atheist's, stance is trying to be value-neutral. He has explained objective reality and our interactions with it in an analytical way: he has 1. the scientific value-neutral theory about objective reality, 2. a system of values that seems separate from this objective reality.

But isn't this idealism unwarranted, in fact, isn't it irrational? To remain "value neutral" in the face of values that are so obviously not neutral. There's nothing neutral about a parametric world. As you said, "To play a game, you need rules." What makes a player take note of the rules but remain neutral about them? How does the game proceed from there?

I argue that no system of values can be truly separate from the perceived (even a partially perceived, flawed understanding of) objective reality. They can only be derived, honestly (in acknowledgment of our own limitions and aware that we are tring to rebuild something we frequently and constantly break ourselves) or dishonestly (almost "plagiarized" and consciously or unconsciously appropriated). Can there be other valid parametric ceilings other than the ceiling? Can we recognize that we have this innate wish to make sense, and then be content with chaos?

 

[water]

This sums up my perception of things: our premises are the same, our pool of knowledge and experience is common, but our language to express it is necessarily unique. The interactions with these theories differ as much as people's personalities differ. Every player is unique, but the playing field is the common.

But on what grounds do believers have faith and hope in spite of this discrepancy? And on what grounds do non-believers dismiss (or accept provisionally)this discrepancy as inconsequential?

On the grounds of language.
But here's the trickery: the words are the same, so it seems that both speak the same language -- and to each party it appears that the other party is using the words wrongly.

If we once more go to the holistic explanation of meaning, saying that words receive their meanings from being inter-related: the inter-relations in a believer's thinking system are different from those in a non-beliver's, hence even though the words may be the same, the inter-relations and thus the meanings of the words are not.

DNA offers a nice analogy: take 4 basic proteins, that are the same in all species -- yet depending on how they are combined, they make the genetic blueprint of a frog or that of a monkey etc.

Words, like those basic proteins, are such forms that per se can not do anything, and bear no meaning, no creation power. Yet put together (with a pinch of magic, of course) -- and all sorts of things come out!

But isn't this idealism unwarranted, in fact, isn't it irrational? To remain "value neutral" in the face of values that are so obviously not neutral. There's nothing neutral about a parametric world. As you said, "To play a game, you need rules." What makes a player take note of the rules but remain neutral about them? How does the game proceed from there?

I argue that no system of values can be truly separate from the perceived (even a partially perceived, flawed understanding of) objective reality. They can only be derived, honestly (in acknowledgment of our own limitions and aware that we are tring to rebuild something we frequently and constantly break ourselves) or dishonestly (almost "plagiarized" and consciously or unconsciously appropriated). Can there be other valid parametric ceilings other than the ceiling? Can we recognize that we have this innate wish to make sense, and then be content with chaos?

I can understand this. At this point, let's ask: Why did this mechanichistic, supposedly value-neutral way of thinking emerge?

 

[Jenyar]

On the grounds of language.
But here's the trickery: the words are the same, so it seems that both speak the same language -- and to each party it appears that the other party is using the words wrongly.

That's part of it, but I think there's more. If it were just a matter of semantics, then their effects (or to use the biblical metaphor: the fruits of their spirit) would look the same, but they don't. It's not a clear cut line either. Faith and hope, insight, wisdom and virtue - these don't behave any differently because of different manifestations or expressions of them in different languages. Love is always welcome. Justice is always desired. Sure, the words are the same, but how are they used?

If all of language and its constituants were essentially the same thing, we wouldn't be able to say anything. On the other hand, if there was no common ground, the language itself wouldn't have existed. So we have to listen to ourselves: what are we saying with what we've got, and what are we saying about what we've got?

Could there be a connection between this meta-language and the parametric environment?

I can understand this. At this point, let's ask: Why did this mechanichistic, supposedly value-neutral way of thinking emerge?

I'd guess for selfish reasons - good selfish reasons and bad selfish reasons. From the realization that each person is unique comes the expression of uniqueness. And from the realization that we are all human comes the expression of humanity, from each individual. From the realization that there are ideals we express the longing for ideals, and likewise from the realization that we lack those ideals comes the expression that...
What? We are nothing more than flawed at best? Or that we must make the best of how we are? Both seem equally correct, but only one finds "reality" in this life. Only one can be verified over and over by experience: to each his own. Selfishness rules. That's the way the world *is*. Anything more imposes - peace, order, laws, justice - things that don't exist, as they define existence, or we would not have to impose them. It's not that we don't see them: we see people with hope, with faith, with peace. It's that we don't believe them. They're illusions compared to reality. They're "outside", even when we witness them first-hand.

Why did this mechanichistic, supposedly value-neutral way of thinking emerge? Because it's the reasonable conclusion. It's what life presents to us, what we can measure and repeat. It's an attempt to make sense of something that doesn't. But isn't that where religion started? I think so, but this time a more realistic god has emerged (or should i say: been proven to exist): the individual as himself. "I'm certain of nothing except my own existence", they say, and that's all they're prepared to express faith in. At least publically. It's just that I find irrational beliefs like hope, absolute values, universal justice don't disappear because they're denied. They're only reformulated in such a way that they're still evident without having to say they are.

People are afraid to decide, because life doesn't force them to, or even ask them to. In an exclusively strategic environment, decisions aren't required. You can just play the ball you were served - it used to be religion, now it's science. It never was the parametric world itself, which is what people ended up rejecting, unfortuately.

As long as the parametric ceiling can be brought down to an individual level, nobody has to worry about the sky falling on their heads.

Value-neutral is safe. It serves every need and fulfills every desire. But when it is expressed as a value, it automagically assumes whatever function it has to fulfil in the present context, whether imposed by the state. A neutral country can decide what it accepts and rejects, which is in a sense what everybody does anyway - express their outonomy. But by what standards and what authority?

For a value-neutral, the context must always be provided (ideally). Otherwise it has to be uncharacteristically enforced, and condemned only in retrosepect as the wrong decision ("oh, people were more primitive then", "things were different", "it wasn't really us"). Life is more complicated and dangerous for someone affirming values, because they have to face being wrong. And bold enough to be wrong because literally, they are wrong. They're living in a fantasy world where values are real enough to warrant more than a guilty conscience. The only context they are allowed to be neutral in is a parametric one. Some find this paralyzing, others liberating. But in many cases, neutrality is the responsible position between two extremes - the facilitating, compassionate, arbitrating, objective position. Just believing that those qualities are worth defending is already a confession that you consider them authoritive beyond your own authority. And reveals "value-neutral" as plain hypocrisy.

 

[muhammad]

peace on those who follow the right way to (ALLAH) the only great and unique god for the whole world and planets and all mankind and the only god who made everything .. made your brain and gave you eyes and life and he can take it and stop you from thinking and can force you to believe in him and erase all data programmed in your mind that give you ability to think there is another god

did you study the cells and biology ??

ALLAH made your brain cells and each millimeter from it

he could program your brain to know him only and never think in another god
could program you to do all right things and never make mistakes

ALLAH doesnt force people to believe in him




but ..... its a test .... big and hard test so he gives you the freedom to choose till this test ends and at last ...... heavens forever
or ... hell forever

first of all im not so good at english so excuse me if you find it hard to understand me ...

my name is muhammad and i live in egypt im 28 years old ... studied engineering and i got a high score on IQ tests ... i work on computer field

i entered this forum to give you some guide lines you may follow may not


if you deserve and ALLAH loves you ....he will guide you
if you dont deserve then none can guide you but ALLAH

i know there are closed minds and actually closed hearts everywhere in world

i got no time now to discuss everything here and too many questions i know all atheists asking like why god lets me feel hungry why do others die starving why are there volcanos why why ...

i just say if you find your way and know how great is ALLAH and that he doesnt need humans but humans need him and if you know that ALLAH is independant and we are poor and you know ALLAH is not unjust and if you know ALLAH isnt like us or similar to anything in world or in your imagination

if you know so and reach this point .. ( you will not reach it unles you deserve it ) if you reach it ... you will know that all these strange things are there to test you till the end and stresses all humans to pick the good and clean hearts and leave the dirty dead hearts

as if its GOLD being tested by fire scum goes to trash and only original and good GOLD left


read this example ....

lets suppose you made some puppets and you put them in a closed room

those puppets move using electricity or batteries and they dont see or know thier maker who made them

lets suppose those puppets has the ability to talk ..... and think ....


do they have the right to think that their maker is the same like them walks using electricity or needs batteries ?? .......

well well

take this one

you make a pc computer and this computer works using CDS and DVDS and hard disk

does the computer have the right to think that the human who made it

uses CDS or DVDS ?


......

humans come from mother and get born and they need food and they die and they are weak

so do we humans have the right to think that god is like us ??
he is born ??? ...... he eats ????? ......... he sleeps ????

he needs wife ...... ??

he needs son ....... ???

he borns ........ ??



he ..... ?? he ....... ?????



ok i give you translation for a small part of the QURAAN

QURAAN = the book of ALLAH contains words ALLAH sent to MUHAMMAD the muslim messenger prophet to teach people and warn them ...

QURAAN has many incridibles in all kinds ... scientific incridibles and natural
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In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

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see ?

ALLAH is above what in your selves and your minds

try to wonder how great is that god who made skies and planets and planets we didnt see and things we dont know ???

earth + humans = a dot in this world = almost nothing in this existence

so .......does ALLAh need this (dot) or need to lie to this (dot) and say im your god ...... surrender to me you weak (dot) ??

how unjust is the human ... ALLAH created him and he was nothing

now he says god you are not there and i dont want you or need you !!

and says bad words about his god ...... god who can cut your tongue and can destroy you and the whole existence

in fact ALLAh doesnt need you but he is great kind to give those who follow his way give them heavens and everything and love them

ALLAH has great patience and you should know a fact came from ALLAH to his messenger MUHAMMAD

1 DAY of ALLAH = 50000 DAYS of humans

yes you didnt read it wrong its right...... 1 day = 50000 days
imagine it and be sure its a truth

if you believe ALLAH made this existence and everything then u believe he can do everything and he is not subjected to physical or dynamic laws !

ALLAH made laws ALLAH can destroy laws .. ALLAH made gravity and can deactivate it ALLAh made human and made him needs food and needs to sleep .. ALLAH made us and made our day and month and year

he has the full control on everything ...

how can ALLAH control all of this at once ??

how can he see all of us at once ??

well

he is not like us ....... as we said

he is over and above our brain's ability

all we know about ALLAH is what he told us

so what did he tell us ?? and how do you know ??

where ??


ok here it is


it is the ISLAM

www. islamway .com


islam is the way to know ALLAH

the only accepted religion from ALLAh

islam came after bible

bible was edited by humans and its has lots of human mistakes

the real bible was there yes before MUHAMMAD the last prophet of ALLAH

the bible was true when JESUS ( the prophet of ALLAH ) was there


we all muslims believe in all books came from ALLAH before muhammad and before islam

but we believe in those books was not edited or changed by humans

those books all over the years and history that have one main message

the message is ( there is only one god [ALLAH])

the real bible says that MUHAMMAD will FOLLOW JESUS

we all muslims believe that JESUS is a great prophet of ALLAH

but he is just a human eats and pisses and sleeps

another part from QURAAN
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59] The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.

[60] The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt.


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so if you think that your god eats or sleeps or pisses and enters tolilette then how fool and unjust are you ?

if you think the great god who made the planets is like us borns and needs a son then how fool and unjust are you ???


we all muslims believe that MUHAMMAD is the last prophet for all people and he followed JESUS

MUHAMMAD for other prophets is like the last rock in building to be completed



at the end

ALLAH is there great very great very very noone can imagine how great is he


when you ask your self those question like why people die and why people steal .......

tell your self that .. ALLAH has control on my brain and he made my cells he can stop me of thinking in this issue and he can force me to forget it

but he lets me think in these things coz it is a test




AND now .... i gave you the way and the only way to ALLAH

islamway



read this translation of words of ALLAH in QURAAN :
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85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

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www.islamway.com

this site has english section

read about islam from trusted resources only and never give your ears to any enemy of islam





only those who deserve will follow it and find the way to ALLAH

try to find




one more thing before i leave ...

some people will say oooooh islaaaam ???

ohhhh terrorists !!!!!

killers !!


well well

if i got 10 childs and i gave them instructions that make the human perfect and good person


if 2 or 3 of them or even the 10 became theives

can you blame the instrctions or blame the childs coz they are not good and dont follow the right way ??



not all muslims are good and not all muslims are real muslims

and muslims by the way are humans who make rights and mistakes

but islam is the rules and messages of ALLAH islam is surrender to your god who made you
.


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151] Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want - We provide sustenance for you and for them - come not nigh to shameful deeds, whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

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killing in wars is something else

imagine u got a pretty wife and children and i came to your house to cut their necks or kill them
will u say thank you or u gonna fight me and try to kill me ??..... ?

the real terrorist can be usa who killed millions for one man or for petrol and land if i think using your way to think .




thanks for ALLAH for islam and being muslim



what was right in this letter its from ALLAH he caused me to do it

and what was wrong here its from my self i ask ALLAH to forgive me im trying to help people .


last thing now :

MUHAMMAD the prophet of ALLAH was ( illiterate )

he couldnt read or write

and ALLAH chose him to carry his message to people


lets read a part of the QURAAN

a translation of it .








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In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] Qaf. By the Glorious Qur-an (Thou art Allah's Apostle).

[2] But they wonder that there has come to them a Warner from among themselves. So the Unbelievers say: "This is a wonderful thing!"

[3] "What! when we die and become dust, (shall we live again?) That is a (sort of) Return far (from our understanding)."

[4] We already know how much of them the earth takes away: with Us is a Record guarding (the full account).

[5] But they deny the Truth when it comes to them: so they are in a confused state.

[6] Do they not look at the sky above them? How We have made it and adorned it, and there are no flaws in it?

[7] And the earth; We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs),

[8] To be observed and commemorated by every devotee turning (to Allah).

[9] And We send down from the sky Rain charged with blessing, and We produce therewith Gardens and Grain for harvests;

[10] And tall (and stately) palm-trees, with shoots of fruit-stalks, piled one over another;

[11] As sustenance for (Allah's) Servants; and We give (new) life therewith to land that is dead: thus will be the Resurrection.

[12] Before them was denied (the Hereafter) by the People of Nuh, the Companions of the Rass, the Thamud,

[13] The 'Ad, Fir'aun, the Brethren of Lut,

[14] The Companions of the Wood, and the People of Tubba'; each one (of them) rejected the Messengers, and My warning was duly fulfilled (in them).

[15] Were We then weary with the first Creation, that they should be in confused doubt about a new Creation?

[16] It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.


[17] Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and note them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

[18] Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

[19] And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

[20] And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).

[21] And there will come forth every soul: with each will be an (angel) to drive, and an (angel) to bear witness.


[22] (It will be said "Thou wast heedless of this, now have We removed thy veil, and sharp is thy sight this Day!"

[23] And his Companion will say: "Here is (his record) ready with me!"

[24] (The sentence will be "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter, (of Allah)!

[25] "Who forbade what was good, transgressed all bounds, cast doubts and suspicions;

[26] "Who set up another god beside Allah: throw him into a severe Penalty."

[27] His Companion will say: "Our Lord! I did not make him transgress, but he was (himself) far astray."

[28] He will say: 'Dispute not with each other in My Presence: I had already in advance sent you Warning.

[29] "The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

[30] One Day We will ask Hell, "Art thou filled to the full?" It will say, "Are there any more (to come)?"

[31] And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous; no more a thing distant.

[32] (A voice will say "This is what was promised for you, for everyone who turned (to Allah) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

[33] "Who feared (Allah) Most Gracious unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

[34] "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

[35] There will be for them therein all that they wish, and more besides in Our Presence.

[36] But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins); stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?

[37] Verily in this is a Message for any that has a heart and understanding or who gives ear and earnestly witnesses (the truth).

[38] We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.

[39] Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting,

[40] And during part of the night, (also,) celebrate His praises and (so likewise) after the postures of adoration.

[41] And listen for the Day when the Caller will call out from a place quite near,

[42] The Day when they will hear a (mighty) Blast in (very) Truth: that will be the Day of Resurrection.

[43] Verily it is We Who give Life and Death; and to Us is the Final Goal,

[44] The Day when the Earth will be rent asunder, from (men) hurrying out: that will be a gathering together; quite easy for Us.

[45] We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur-an such as fear My Warning!

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