A flaw in God's creation?

[one_raven]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
What i would question is why we then don't get these goosebumps every other time adrenaline is released into our system, and furthermore why they also appear at times of cold.

I wonder if any studies have been done regarding the activity of the adrenal(sp?) gland in these times.

Perhaps it comes before adrenaline.

As you pointed out, in the haunted house before something is scaring you...
And, as I said, a pre-cursor to fight-or-flight.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
before times of fire and adequate shelter, mankind simply would have frozen to death unless he had a hell of a lot more hair then he does now The logical suggestion for the remaining extrusion of hair would be a bygone requirement of human beings, serving several functions in order to prolong survival.

This could very well be it.

Anyway, it is sort of silly.

Having parts/reactions/traits that are *now* redundant wouldn't suggest a flaw in creation.

On the contrary, to a creationist, it would simply imply that evolution happened after creation, therefore proving that creation WAS perfect because it was a design that allowed us to adapt and evolve to our surroundings.

 

[SnakeLord]

I wonder if any studies have been done regarding the activity of the adrenal(sp?) gland in these times.

Now, that's actually a very interesting notion. I'll have a look around, see if i can find anything with relevance.

On the contrary, to a creationist, it would simply imply that evolution happened after creation, therefore proving that creation WAS perfect because it was a design that allowed us to adapt and evolve to our surroundings.

Indeed. We could probably sit and list many instances of modern day animal dragging along useless organs/bones etc but that would never really change the belief of creation.

Ah well, each to his own.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by sonar
quote

"This however brings up another point of the missgivings in the bible. The writers of the bible state constantly that god is a just and loving being. Well assuming the bible is correct for the moment and we were created by a loving god. Would not all these years of imperfection and death be enough to make up for the one insubordinate act of eating the wrong fruit? After all the bible writers state that "the wages sins pay is death" Romans chap 6 verse 23. So after all these millenia of death and imperfection after Adam ate the wrong fruit should not that wage for his one sin be paid already?

One can argue that we have sinned ever since Adam but his punishment was our condition today, again assuming the bible is accurate. So why would a just and loving god punish his creation all this time for one little insurection so long ago? This again brings the question, were the bible writers inspired by god or were they just making a rule book so the people of their land would stay in line and not question them. Since the bible said certain kings were in place because god wanted them there and certain laws must be obeyed, this would be and still is in some ways of very good means keeping a population in line."


You said it yourself. Man has sinned a few times after Adam and Eve. And the wage of sin is death. Pure and simple. And on the validity of the Bible's inspiration. the just live by faith. If you want to believe that the Bible was written by some guys who just wanted to be famous, then there's nothing I can do for you. Thats the problem with the scientific community today, they can't accept anything if they can't rationalize it in their minds. But as God told Job in Job 38 :4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me if You have understanding.


Oh yeh famous, lets keep in mind that these guys were not exactly celebrities . Isiah was sawed in half, Matthew whipped to death, John boiled in oil, Paul beheaded, just to name a few. Those don't sound like "famous"people to me.

 

[atheroy]

On the contrary, to a creationist, it would simply imply that evolution happened after creation, therefore proving that creation WAS perfect because it was a design that allowed us to adapt and evolve to our surroundings

the idea of evolution will eventually find its way into church doctrine- every other significant scientific claim has, even though most were initially met with outrage and persecution. it took an age before the church thought the world wasn't flat but in the end they had to accept this as it is obviously a false belief- the world in definately not flat.
that's what pisses me off about religion, and that is what most religious people don't see. religion is moulded to its times- it will never be constant in any way apart from the silly stories that most like to believe in even though they make absolutely no sense in our physical or biological world. the new testament was required so that religion didn't choke on its old world old testament.
people ignore this fact. people don't see this fact. for the life of me don't know how.

 

[jcarl]

it will never be constant in any way apart from the silly stories that most like to believe in even though they make absolutely no sense in our physical or biological world.

Indeed some of the stories talked about in the Bible are not of this world. But God is not of this world either. The stories don't make sense; that's why they're called miracles. Something not of this world had to be in control when they threw daniel to the Lions, or when the three Israelites were thrown in the furnace, or when Elijah's water-soaked alter burnt to the ground; and that something had to have been a God.

 

[atheroy]

Indeed some of the stories talked about in the Bible are not of this world. But God is not of this world either. The stories don't make sense; that's why they're called miracles. Something not of this world had to be in control when they threw daniel to the Lions, or when the three Israelites were thrown in the furnace, or when Elijah's water-soaked alter burnt to the ground; and that something had to have been a God.

not miracles- just the plain stupid stories. adam and eve and noah and his ark- there isn't enough water on this planet to flood the worlds land masses and both have serious inbreeding problems. another would be the claim that the world is only 6000 years old, where do the dinosaurs come into this equation? contenintal drift?

im not talking about the crap prose in the bible meaning we can't properly understand what is being said, just the bs that is obviously contemporary to its time and knowledge- yet people STILL believe it.

its amazing that most will take the bible for historical accuracy then question fossil evidence- ACTUAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE- or any other scientific evidence that is drawn from physical data. the bible is a book- a very clever one that people still believe in though it has been replaced to mask the contradictions and fact that christianity is pretty much an end of the world cult. i wish people would just open their eyes a little wider, rather than walking around, squinting at a world through eyes that are clouded by their minds.

 

[SnakeLord]

noah and his ark- there isn't enough water on this planet to flood the worlds land masses and both have serious inbreeding problems.

In the story of noah, and indeed most of the OT, you can see many examples of older beliefs and texts playing their part. The majority would consider Ziusudra to be the original basis for the noah story. Of course the ziusudra story wasn't anywhere near as fantastical as the noah one and as such does contain elements of possible truths as opposed to outright farce.

I counted up all the animals we currently have classified. Using only birds and mammals, (and not multiplying clean animals * 7, but just 2 as i couldn't be bothered working out what was clean and what wasn't), i came to a grand total minimum of: 78,500 animals on the ark.

I am still working the calculations, which is quite hard 'cause we would also need to allow for many other things in order to make it possible:

Separate areas/locations/cages: You can't put a lion and a deer in the same place.

Environmental needs: You can't put a polar bear on a boat and expect it to survive without lots of ice.

Food: This would be an overwhelming amount.

Lol, yes- i truly do have lots of time to waste. I will upload a webpage with completed version when it's done But in short: It's an impossibility.

Furthermore, we can spot a great deal of Babylonian astronomy within the noah story, and other places. I will try explain in short format:

The world was flat and surrounded by water. Obviously the water would fall off the edges so the babylonians gave rise to a big dome that surrounded the firmament/planet. In the beginning of genesis you see god separating "waters below and waters above". This is in keeping with babylonian belief of this vast dome filled with water above the firmament. Pic here:

The dome sides were full of water. When it rained, god/deity would open small hatches/doors etc that were on this dome. That would let the rain come down.

If we look at the bible during noah we see the following text:

Gen 7:11 ".. and the floodgates of heaven were opened."
Gen 8:2 ".. and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed." (NIV)

Gen 7:11 "..and the windows of heaven were opened."
Gen 8:2 ".. and the windows of heaven were stopped." (KJV)

Gen 7:11 "..and the sluices of heaven were opened."
en 8:2 "..and the sluices of heaven were stopped up." (NJV)

As you can see, the old babylonian beliefs play a major role in this story. (and others).

Finally, (sorry, i'm not used to short posts), just incase anyone would enquire why i waste my time doing the maths concerning noah. The answer: A) I have a lot of free time, B) Many people have tried to convince me the bible is 100% complete fact and C) If a story, (oh and this is just one of many), can be shown to be pure fantasy, exaggeration, imagination then what credibility does that leave every other story in it?

 

[atheroy]

yeah, i totally agree. noah's arch would be a true impossibilty, not just because of the fact that inbreeding would occur, but as you pointed out, the ridiculas number of species and animals, all requiring their own specific habitat to survive. his boat is impossible.

many (if not all) stories in the bible have been plagiarized then over-exagerated to the point where they've just become fantastical. christians cannot deny the validity of the old testament seeing it was supposed to be written by god (who knew he could plagiarize?), even though it is contradicted in parts by the new testament- it goes to show how standards and morals have changed over time- making it all the more obvious that both bibles have been written according to there times and knowledge. if god wrote a book it would be ever lasting in its consistancy. yet either are not. both are supposed to have been written by god but both are flawed. in the defintion of god it would be impossible for him to write a flawed book. if that isn't food for thought then i dont know what is.

 

[Agent Smith]

Okay...........it may seem unfeasable for all the species of the world to fit in a small ark..but guess what, nothing is impossible for God. Jesus fed 5000 people or so with food that was only enough for a few people.

 

[sonar]

Sorry another long-winded post

The story about Jesus feeding 5000 people with just a few loaves and fishes is another bible story. My parents would force me to read the bible stories when I was a child to 'make me a good christian'. But none of them would ever mach up, noah's ark would need to be alot bigger than described in the bible and still sea worthy. And I can understand that these stories must be taken on faith as I was told time and time again. But if the bible and god discount magic as something evil performed by demons or some sort of evil then how else can you explain feeding 5000 people with a few fishes and bread, or healing someone, or bringing someone back to life, and on and on the stories go. If there is an all powerful god out there that created us and wants the world to worship him, then wht not give the inquireing ones like us the inside track? Why not satisfy our curiosity or at least give us some clues to figure it out on our own? Then maby I will think about believeing again

Oh I have been gone a little while and so just saw the latest posts. About the caecums, what I was implying is that since perfection was taken away from us who knows what parts we have that to us have no purpose. You can stop and entire car from running by disconnecting one single wire, and if the driver does not know the workings of the car they are stuck. This can be taken the same way with us. We don't know what god disconnected or stoped from working to make us imperfect and mortal

What if as perfect beings we were meant to eat only plants and that is why we have the caecums. And god disconnected the use of them as one of a series of possible disconnections that made imperfection (since disconnecting caecums would probably be enough). So by just disconnecrting them depending on the teachings you had (mine was perfect immortal life on earth as a reward for being 'righteous') god would just reconnect those 'wires' in us and bing bang boom we are perfect again. And another little twist is if we are made in god's image as the bible says then why do we eat anything at all does god need to eat? and if he/she does why not tell us his favorite food so we can eat that too?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Return to believing...

Originally posted by sonar
Sorry another long-winded post
Why not satisfy our curiosity or at least give us some clues to figure it out on our own? Then maby I will think about believeing again

Once you receive the "knowing" or "gnosis," you could never go back to the state of "unknowing" or "agnosis."

 

[sonar]

Re: Return to believing...

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Once you receive the "knowing" or "gnosis," you could never go back to the state of "unknowing" or "agnosis."

What could possibly happen that I would want to return to the state of unknowing. I do not like not knowing how something works or why it is there or why it works etc etc. Does god threaten us not to understand him or his creation?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: Return to believing...

Originally posted by sonar
What could possibly happen that I would want to return to the state of unknowing. I do not like not knowing how something works or why it is there or why it works etc etc. Does god threaten us not to understand him or his creation?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. If a person understands something, they wouldn't want to return to not knowing it. It's bad enough that as we get older we become so forgetful! But we're talking about a different kind of "knowing." When we reach a level of understanding about ethereal things, it's quite hard to disbelieve what you have seen or believe. My conception of God does not threaten us at all. The "knowing" would be received because of the close relationship one has with God. God would no more threaten us than we would threaten ourselves to do or believe something!

For those who want to gain the "knowing," just focus on the words Jesus said himself rather than those who quoted him. This eliminates most of the Bible.

 

[sonar]

That was the confusion I did not know what you meant by knowing. I assumed you meant that knowing as in obtaining knowledge as you would in a class room or some form of study. Thank you for you clarification and I see your point now.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Re: Re: Return to believing...

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
For those who want to gain the "knowing," just focus on the words Jesus said himself rather than those who quoted him. This eliminates most of the Bible.

And in what cute and cultish seance did you hear such words? Perhaps a dated and verified example might help.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Return to believing...

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
And in what cute and cultish seance did you hear such words? Perhaps a dated and verified example might help.

This is a very personal experience that happens probably over a period of time, something which I am sure you have not experienced since you have a hateful heart. Furthermore, I was not speaking to you nor answering you, so I owe you no verification of anything.

 

[atheroy]

Okay...........it may seem unfeasable for all the species of the world to fit in a small ark..but guess what, nothing is impossible for God. Jesus fed 5000 people or so with food that was only enough for a few people.

unfeasable? impossible is more like it. god did not build noah's ark, nor was he active in any other way described apart from making it rain. a lot. you don't seem to understand the absofuckinglutely huge logistics in what is being said in noah's story. a) noah would need more than two of every animal to avoid inbreeding. two alone of every animal is by itself a massive number. think of all the varities of insects, bugs, spiders, birds, lizards, fish, marine mammals and land mammals, plants, trees- all the animals and all the flora and fluna you know or can think of, then times that by atleast 7 (so as to avoid inbreeding). to make a ship of that magnitude, it would be impossible- in noah's time, and our time. the specific habitats, the food, the waste removal system, since when have you heard of any miracle that hasn't been a flimsy story that probably never occured, or was twisted in it's re-telling so that whatever happened, did seem like a miracle.

no. the way god is described in the bible you'd think him to be a fool. i think the thought process alone would've told god that he was about to wipe the the face of the earth clean of life, causing himself a major headache.

i can't believe christians think their god so stupid as to cause something like this to happen. for an infinite being that we're told has infinite wisdom- it is something never displayed in the bible. instead, it is all hocus pocus written to impress the people of the time when the bible was written. contemporary to those people's knowledge, and formidable to those people at the time. if that does not show that god did not have a hand in creating the bible, what does?

PS god, think about it people, would have written a bible that was consistant through time, and, in his infinite wisdom, would not have done all the dumb shit that the bible says he did, nor would he be the dumbass the bible says he is. i think god would be logical, the "god works in mysterious ways" cliche arisen from the fact that if god didn't it would be plain and obvious that he is a dumbass as described by the bible. yet even that excuse is stupid in light of the fact that an all powerful all knowledgeable god wouldn't be mysterious. if i was a christian i would be disconcerted at how slow the bible makes god out to be- especially seeing he is supposed to have all this knowledge lying around the place.

 

[jcarl]

Ok I'm tired of this. Look God does things his way. Why? because he is god and will do as he pleases. He does work in mysterious ways that the mortal mind cannot comprehend. Look at the Book of Job for a case study. (Here's the gist: A man who has done no wrong is "punished" in the form of losing everthing he had( his wealth, his children, and so on. Some of his neighbors attempt to convince him that he has done wrong and needs to repent.) That was the carnal logic, but that was not the answer.

Not everything can be explained. Can you explain how a brown cow eats green grass to create white milk and yellow butter? Can you explain EXACTLY how and why electricity works as it works?

I will respond to the first reply to this post, then I am done completely with this thread.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

God's way...

Originally posted by jcarl
Ok I'm tired of this. Look God does things his way. Why?

Not everything can be explained. Can you explain how a brown cow eats green grass to create white milk and yellow butter?

I will respond to the first reply to this post, then I am done completely with this thread.

jcarl, apparently you are confused. Perhaps your knowledge of the dairy industry is directly related to your understanding of God. Brown cows, and even purple ones, that eat green grass create white milk and WHITE butter. It is the greedy dairy industry that colors the butter with a yellow dye to make it look richer and creamier to sell more butter. Cheese is also white at first. Its the fillers they put in so they can sell more cheese and make more money.

Let's look at Xianity like this: Jesus was a plain and simple man who was an exceptional teacher, a Rabbi. It was the inventor(s) of Xianity long after Jesus was gone (out of town where he died a natural death of old age) who embellished Xianity and made Jesus a deity. Like the dairy industry, these inventors of Xian myth colored the events to make Xianity more appealing to the masses so they could sell more eternal life.

Just like brown cows don't make chocolate milk, Xianity won't save anybody's soul, but there is a big money in making people believe it will.

Sorry to see you go. It's pretty obvious this is the forum you should be on because you need to know the truth.

Good-bye.