A Final Proof Against Christianity

MarcAC: The point is; it was written about so obviously then, someone witnessed it? If there is disagreement then it must be contended that the writer was lying. Where is the atheistic, rational, repeatable, observable, proof of this?
*************
M*:W: Unfortunately, christianity is based on a the evil deeds of a liar, a thief, and a murderer who just happened to be the writer of the greatest mythology ever known. As I've said before, do some reading on the life of Paul from Tarsus. Christians everywhere believe his lies.
 
MarcAC: Even as a Christian, when I state; God exists, I attempt to provide some form of support. These are just statements to be taken on faith, from a faithless (in God) ex-Christian. It is suggested that some aid be presented from the bona fide atheists on this forum or maybe that the supporting texts be included in the essay for 'constructive dismantling'.
*************
M*W: Please provide us with your proof of God, Jesus and Christianity. We need to be enlightened. I have posted bibliographies for the Christians to read -- but they won't read these books, because they are afraid of what they might learn.
 
David F. said:
Quotes by §outh§tar:

Their usage of the Old Testament so-called 'prophecies' to show that Jesus was the Messiah are indisputably wrenched out of context. You may see the prophesies that way but prophecies, it seems, never work out as man envisions them. This does not make them invalid.

The genealogies of Jesus contradict. One is Mary and one is Joseph

The resurrection accounts of Jesus contradict. How?

Judas betrayal of Jesus contradicts itself in the gospels. More accusations without references

The bit about the "saints rising up and entering Jerusalem" is an obvious and glaring fabrication. Why is this a fabrication any more than Jesus' other miricles?

Jesus' last words cant even be agreed upon. I don't believe it says anywhere what his "last words" were.

There are anachronistic difficulties with the texts. What exactly?

The "inspired" writers copy word for word extensively from the Markan accounts. If you mean Mark was source material - so what?

There are mistakes regarding Palestinian customs and geography. What exactly, and how would anyone know 2000 years later anyway?

Certain internal evidences suggests the Markan accounts were a mere compilation of anecdotes. Specifics Please. Even if true - So what? Your point please?

Well since you were obviously unable to infer, I was not at all interested into detailing every one of those; I only meant to list a few. Why don't you pick one or two which interest you and we will go over them.
 
It is strange when one would regard "support" as "proof". Then again, with a knowledge of the posts usually produced by those with such concepts this is no surprise.
 
This will be updated and revised as time goes on. I challenge all Christians and nonbelievers to take up their swords and poke every hole in this essay as it expands as it is obviously far from perfection and completeness, which we strive for.

It is even stranger when others make baseless comments without reviewing the available information. :confused:
 
Regarding a Final Proof Against Christianity

Christianity is not a thing 'out there' all though it is out there in the world. Being a Christian is about 'being' one. A plum is a plum, an orange is an orange, a telephone is a telephone, a fart is a fart. A Christian is a Christian. It's like trying to prove that the orange juice is a figment of the orange's imagination or that the methane tricked the fart into thinking it was a fart. Folly. Pure unadulterated folly. Folly is great huh! << No sarcasm at all. Oh folly is folly as well by the way. That's all. It is made up of things that are foolish. Foolish things are great though.

peace

c20
 
§outh§tar said:
It is even stranger when others make baseless comments without reviewing the available information. :confused:
Star, that one wasn't addressed to you, however I realise we often project the thoughts which occupy our minds about oursleves unto the comments of others. My post before that one (I think) requested that the essay be updated with the relevant supporting info for 'constructive dismantling'... David F. sincerely requested support for just the first two. I guess we all patiently wait... you have the ball Star - MVP.
 
Last edited:
Well, as long as Southstar doesn't mind me butting in, I'll give it a go.. (I'm going to start at number 2 and do number 1 at the end, because it's more lengthy).

"The genealogies of Jesus contradict. One is Mary and one is Joseph"

Jesus' genealogy, claiming that he was a descendant of David the King (a prophetic requirement), is not only fabricated, but doesn't make sense in light of other aspects of Paulist Christology. This concocted lineage indicates that the line of David was continued in Joseph, but if Mary was a virgin, then how could it be valid?

"The resurrection accounts of Jesus contradict. How?"

There were two people in the tomb, no one, no two angels, no wait...

MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

That's just a start.

"Judas betrayal of Jesus contradicts itself in the gospels. More accusations without references"

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)

I'm not sure if this is exactly what Southstar was getting at, but kindly do not start whinging if it isn't what you wanted.

"Jesus' last words cant even be agreed upon. I don't believe it says anywhere what his "last words" were."

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Read your bible heh.

"Their usage of the Old Testament so-called 'prophecies' to show that Jesus was the Messiah are indisputably wrenched out of context. You may see the prophesies that way but prophecies, it seems, never work out as man envisions them. This does not make them invalid."

"Halley's Comet will return without fail in the year 2062. Biblical or Delphic prophecies don't begin to aspire to such accuracy; astrologers and Nostradamians dare not commit themselves to factual prognostications but, rather, disguise their charlatanry in a smokescreen of vagueness." (Richard Dawkins).

The thing is, "prophecies" are fully interpretable in any manner the reader so chooses. Take for instance the Nostradamus prophecy concerning the twin towers. Firstly: the prophecy was not made by nostradamus, but by a college student showing how easy it is to make a prophecy and have people believe it relates to something specific. He did this before Sept 11th, which is why it made such a public impact.

I will make a prophecy for you now: Sometime when the wind blows, there will be war in the middle east.

Yes, it's blatantly obvious that the middle east will fight, considering that's what they've been doing since day 1, but the beginning part allows me a lot of freedom. Prophecies are much like this, and generally a lot more vague, and a lot more open to interpretation.

Let's try again..

In the year when the mouse scurries, the man shall be set aside, shall be wrenched from his position. The fight that follows will be harsh, and leave much blood on the battlefield.

Now you see, this can be interpreted anyway the reader wants to, and that is why prophecies are not valid.

P.S I know I didn't answer all of them, but you only asked for two. I provided more than you asked for. Be thankful.
 
The only word that stuck in my head as I read your post Snakelord was the spirit with which Jesus cried 'Eli', given that I too subscribe to that spirit and know it. How can you change that about me Snakelord? I tell you the truth, you cannot.
The Christian is embued with a spirit which cries "Daddy". That Spirit intercedes on our behalf in prayer because we are so weak in our faith that we do not know how to pray and so it helps us.
I thought you may be interested in this Spirit just from an observers point of view SnakeLord? No?
I thought the scientist took all things into consideration. Why does the scientist despise and reject the witness of the individual in the case of the Christian faith?
Surely they know themselves better than you know them? Why would you call them a liar? It does not seem at all rational or objective! I am starting to doubt the validity of science altogether now :(
 
MarcAC said:
Star, that one wasn't addressed to you, however I realise we often project the thoughts which occupy our minds about oursleves unto the comments of others. My post before that one (I think) requested that the essay be updated with the relevant supporting info for 'constructive dismantling'... David F. sincerely requested support for just the first two. I guess we all patiently wait... you have the ball Star - MVP.

Oh sorry.. I was confused for a moment because I knowingly added that disclaimer..
 
I thought the scientist took all things into consideration. Why does the scientist despise and reject the witness of the individual in the case of the Christian faith? [...] It does not seem at all rational or objective! I am starting to doubt the validity of science altogether now

Aaah yes, irony of ironies.

c2O of all people is calling for the demise of not just rationality, but objectiveness.

Hypocrite.
 
Well, as long as Southstar doesn't mind me butting in, I'll give it a go.. (I'm going to start at number 2 and do number 1 at the end, because it's more lengthy).

No problem, this thread is designed for free input. I will however address each topic one by one instead of two at once lest the discussion degenerates even quicker..
 
§outh§tar said:
Aaah yes, irony of ironies.

c2O of all people is calling for the demise of not just rationality, but objectiveness.

Hypocrite.

Hypocrite I may be, but answer me why you claim that a Christian lies? Why do that? There own witness should be sufficient for you no? They are people with eyes and a nose and a brain just like you unless you are claiming to be a better person than they are? Are you?

thanks
c20
 
Their usage of the Old Testament so-called 'prophecies' to show that Jesus was the Messiah are indisputably wrenched out of context. You may see the prophesies that way but prophecies, it seems, never work out as man envisions them. This does not make them invalid.

On this topic it is unnecessary for me to provide any references to the prophecies themselves since you will only parrot the same retort: they "never work out as man envisions them".

Ironically, a close reading of the Old Testament contexts contrarily reveals (as SnakeLord observed)

1) the vagueness of the "prophecies" (if they were at all prophecies) detract from the integrity of the New Testament eisegeses.

2) the historical context of the prophecies again splays the realm of interpretations concerning the prophecies far beyond Jesus.

3) it is quite possible that the Gospel writers reconstructed the anecdotes of Jesus during their time to fit their views of the prophecies in Isaiah and so on. It is extremely arbitrary and naieve to discount this possibility, even on the basis of "faith".
--

I will summarily quote Paul Tobin to further prove my point:
----
Both Matthew and Luke stated that Jesus; conception was not a commonplace one. In these gospels Mary was a virgin who became pregnant, not through sexual intercourse, but through the "power of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34-35). The gospel of Matthew explicitly mentioned that this virgin pregnancy took place in fulfillment of the scriptures:

Matthew 1:22-23
And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'".

Matthew is quoting the book of Isaiah (7:14) from the Septuagint. The word for virgin is rendered in the Greek Bible as parthenos. This word carries the explicit meaning of virgin. However, if we are to look at the Bible in its original Hebrew, from the massoretic text, the word used there is almah. Now the nearest English translation for almah is a young woman and does not carry with it any strong connotation of virginity.


[.............]

If the author of Isaiah wanted to make clear the prophecy, he would not have used the word almah for all the ambiguity that it entails. He would have chosen the Hebrew word that does explicitly mean a virgin: bethulah. This word would have been the Hebrew equivalent for the Greek parthenos. The Greek equivalent for almah should actually be neanis, which means young woman.

Matthew's assertion of the virgin birth being prophesied in the scripture is therefore based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for a young woman. The virgin birth is nowhere prophesied in the original Hebrew.
---------
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/virgin.html
 
c20H25N3o said:
Hypocrite I may be, but answer me why you claim that a Christian lies? Why do that? There own witness should be sufficient for you no? They are people with eyes and a nose and a brain just like you unless you are claiming to be a better person than they are? Are you?

thanks
c20

Tell me c2O.

Do Satanists lie?

If so, are you claiming to be a better person than they are?

:rolleyes:
 
SouthStar -

I just found this that you posted to Mario. You seem very double-minded all round :confused:

§outh§tar said:
God is not "incapable" of anything. He won't sin because the very idea is despicable to Him like you and I do not possibly understand. The evil desires are born in us, they don't come from God.

James 1
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Are you using the Bible to attack athiests and Christians? I think you are a bit confused m8. I'd say "Get ya head straight" then you might start making sense. Until then you just look like someone trying to be right all the time :bugeye:
 
§outh§tar said:
Can you just answer the question I asked? Digging skeletons won't bury the questions.

God can do whatever He wants to m8 cos He is far wiser than I am. I wouldn't dare judge God. He could squash me like a bug.

Thanks

c20
 
Back
Top