Ok, a lot to get through. However C20, I would like to quickly get this out of the way before proceeding:
A) There is no valid reason whatsoever for me to 'trust' you.
B) we're not mates.
Kindly remember these two things for the future.
Do you see a person inside me who like to suffer? No of course you do not - you see someone like yourself.
Why then am I subjected to suffering?
I don't see 'someone like myself' at all. Do not assume that others are the way you are. I see many people, day in - day out, and a large number of them are actually more comfortable in a position of suffering, and so technically we can say inside, many people like to suffer. Not only that, but they like to see others suffer aswell. Why do you think programmes like Eastenders and Coronation Street are so popular?
Why you personally are subjected to suffering, can be one of many reasons - and without going into a long long discussion, can not be satisfied fully. Some people are inherently weak by nature, and fall foul to certain things because of their nature. Others, like my brother, are just prone to it. They're like 'suffer magnets'.
Either way, god appears to be a crutch for the fact that you suffer so much. That doesn't mean he's there, but as long as you feel supported, the suffering isn't quite so visible.
Well let's begin with my first wife. She was a lover of money. I was a means to an end for her. She did not love me but rather made a good pretence of it because I had a nice car and obviously had the ability to keep her in the lifestyle she had become accustomed to by being a stripper.
Now ask yourself why you didn't notice this before getting in too deep, why, (given her apparent background), you didn't stay clear, and why, once knowing more about her, you didn't leave?
These are very important questions, that will hopefully tell you a bit about you.
It's easy for all of us to pile everything onto someone else, but very rarely do we look at ourselves and ask, "what is wrong with
me?"
At one stage you say; "I saw a beautiful thing emerge", but the rest of your post completely contradicts that statement. But isn't that how it is? You see something that nobody else sees, and regardless to what they say, you ignore them, believing your own view is the correct one. It's a lot easier standing back and then you'll see what's wrong with the picture. When you're stuck right in the middle of it, you never notice.
It's like a frog. If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water, it'll bounce right out in pain. If on the other hand you put a frog in cold water, and then slowly heat the water up - the frog will just sit there and boil to death.
This has relevance with both your past relationship, and your religious beliefs. Take it as you will.
I was completely alone in what I can only be described as hell.
It's a very typical religious story, and one where the answer is thereby obvious to anyone viewing from a distance. Life sucked ass, you found guidance in the clouds. It's as simple as that, and it could have been anything from jesus to allah to little green men. All you needed was guidance, and while I would say you should have just gone to counselling, you chose the 'faith' option, whereby you threw sanity and logic out of the window and adopted the world's most naive standpoint. It might be cheaper than seeing a good shrink, but the problems are never really solved, just shoved aside and forgotten about. All the pain turns to love - and to such a degree where even evil can be seen as wonderful. No sane person ever reads the bible and says it's full of love - only a religious man can do that - and that's because he was lacking it so much, he had to find a substitute, and once found it became the absolute pinnacle of that which he could not find elsewhere.
You've already spoken about your father, and now you've spoken about your wife. Add to that a life threatening accident, and I think you mentioned something about the death of your child - and there can only be one of few conclusions.
But for a moment sit down and consider this seriously: Given all the turmoil, strife and pain in your life, do you think you're in a position to trust your own judgements and beliefs? If so, why?
In that place I thirsted for love like I have never thirsted before.
See? My point exactly.
I can wish and wish and wish but I cannot change a thing.
Ask and it shall be given. Anyone who believes in jesus can move mountains, pick up deadly snakes, drink poison and live...
The dreams of a man who's life is in the toilet.
I concur with you however, you can wish and wish and wish, but nothing will ever be solved that way - by anything, be it god, leprechauns or mermaids.
I dont rejoice in my suffering although I can see how these things produce a spirit of endurance and it is that spirit of endurance that serves to build my character.
So, are you saying that before all this suffering you had no character, or a weakly built character? See the first part of my post.
It is hardly suprising therefore that we see Jesus as the most talked about character today!
Actually, I think he's been overtaken by Harry Potter. What is your claim here? That because people talk about a person, that that person is real or god or able to perform miracles?
Whether you love him or hate him, whether you call Him friend or enemy, you cannot deny that His name is known by millions.
Again, the same goes for Harry Potter. What is your point or claim?
People blame Jesus or God for their suffering but it is other people who actually cause the suffering because of their love of money or selfish interests.
By that same token, it's man who causes love and happiness. People blame jesus or god, but it's humans. It's not a surprise to see the one thing that you "thirsted for like you have never thirsted before", can only be found in the clouds, whereas all the pain and strife is down to the humans that have caused that pain and strife. You put love slightly beyond reach, because that's where it is, and put pain right under your nose because that's where it is.
Look at all the evil in the world and tell me what you see as the root cause?
It's the same as everything though.. You need to look for it. Personally I don't watch the news, and as such I see very little evil. What I do is spend my time with my wife and daughter, and as such all I really see in life is love.
I'm also not a pessimist. I fall off a ladder for instance.. Instead of thinking about the pain of the fall, I think about the extra love shown to me by my wife and daughter. Even when, like now, I'm messed up with the flu... I don't let the illness get me down, because my daughter is rushing me cups of tea, my wife brings me a glass of whisky, asks if I'm ok and tells me that she loves me. That makes the illness vanish into the distance.
As to your question.. The very rare times that I bother reading/watching the news - the cause of that evil always comes from the same source: religion. Ok, there's always the odd story of someone killing a child or whatever, but I deal with ill people all the time. They are not "evil" so to speak, they're just ill.
Some illnesses only last a week and can be dealt with with a paracetamol.. some illnesses are more rare, and take a lot longer to solve, if ever. But why try and make a border between them? Ill is ill. It's not about sin, sacrifice or the devil.. it's a part of being ill.
Now I hear you say but look at what God does throughout the old testament, He even turns one woman to a pillar of salt because she didnt give to the church what she could have given. I tell you the truth, it is for the love of the world that God does these things.
Love for the world, sure.. What about love for the woman? Did jesus not sacrifice himself for her sins, just like yours?
Read my earlier responses to this.
The little men had forgotten God is in Heaven and that God had made them and that their labours were in vein because if they just turned their hearts to Him, he would reveal the Kingdom of Heaven to them. So He made them lose their sense of purpose so that they would become frustrated and try and seek what they were looking for elsewhere.
But this was obviously all for nothing. While it most certainly has delayed man, we're now in "heaven". Forget tall buildings, we can fly to space. Forget language barriers, we can learn and speak every language on the planet, or indeed just buy tiny machines to translate for us. We have embarked on joint ventures to nearly every remote part of this planet and have even travelled beyond this planet, into the place ancient people called heaven. We have machines on Mars for crying out loud. As time goes by, we'll go further and further and further. What's gods next great plan to confuse us all?
In 2011, NASA plan to send men to Mars, and from then on it's just a small matter of time. You might even still be alive when you see serious missions to Mars underway, with a team of humans at the helm.
The confusing of people who knew nothing, and thought the world was flat is completely irrelevant when looking at the big picture. It has served as a brief inconvenience and nothing more.
God is like this. He subjects us all to terrible frustrations (different from being tested personally by some enemy) so that we have no place else to look but to Him.
To what degree? Would you say that someones child dying is one of god's "frustrations" given to us just so we look for him? Where do you draw the line, if anywhere?
God is insanely jealous for your love.
Well send him my apologies, but my wife and daughter must come first. Doing otherwise would go against my very sense of humanity. It would render me something that I am not.
Furthermore, if I was to get an eternity with him, isn't it a little too much to ask that I show more to him now than to my family with the brief 80 years I have, if I'm lucky?
Anyone who thinks an invisible guy in the sky is more worthy of love than their own wives and children are, is as far as I'm concerned, a serious sicko.
The difference is that God is way at the top of the food chain, in fact He is the first link in it and the last link in it. He is All In All - the alpha and the omega.
Which is strange, considering to many of us he is completely meaningless. My daughter is ALL. That's all there is to it, and no argument in the world could change that simple fact.
As for your assertion that Jesus must only listen to some and not others, I can testify that this is not true. Jesus Himself said "Whoever believes in me will not perish but will receive eternal life" << The Word in His mouth was God's good word. God's promise! The spirit of The Word is a true spirit. You see the battles we witness and indeed take part in are not of flesh and blood but of spirit. The Word of God is Light that banishes all false spirits that are antichrist because they must flee from the light. God is the Light and from God does the Light Shine. If you have said in your heart "I dont know what is what Jesus but I am willing to put my doubts at your doorstep if you will reveal yourself to me"
This doesn't answer my question.
well, if you do this with just a tiny bit of faith that you will be heard, well you have my absolute guarentee of eternal life because God promised.
I don't actually want eternal life.
Secondly, you now say "with a tiny bit of faith", when earlier you said you didn't even take it seriously etc. I then asked that if someone else did it exactly how you did it and got no response, what would that mean?
But understand something that Jesus said, He said "Dont be suprised if the world hates you because of me". He said this because he knows that mankind likes to live in the darkness where they think that their deeds cannot be seen.
That's clearly not true. We've come from threats of death from god if we dare masturbate, to a world full of people happily wanking. Everything that you might deem bad deeds, are so public now that there is little in the way of taboo left on earth, (depending on location). What might have once been done in darkness is now as open as it ever could be - for the entire world to see.
My frustration here is that I know that the things you reject are the very things you desire.
With all due respect, but could you kindly keep your blatant delusions to yourself. While I might be the only person, I actually detest the idea of an eternal life, I detest the idea of worship, (unless aimed at my daughter), and I detest the idea that while I could go to heaven there would be others burning for eternity.
While in some cases they most certainly would have done "evil" things, my job and my interests are in helping people, not tormenting them because of their problems.
There might be a god offering all these things.. but I would have to decline on principle. I am better than that.
You become much more than conquerors in Christ.
I don't want to conquer, I want to help.
You become like great spiritual heros who live not for the flesh but for the spirit.
I don't want to be a hero, and there is no such thing as spirit.
God is such a good master and the sword He gives you has power's that no video game could hope to mirror.
I don't need a sword. I have a brain and find that fully sufficient. I also do not need a master, an eternal life, or a golden city.
One mustard seed of faith. The seed costs you nothing and yet the fruit from it lasts forever.
I don't need or want a mustard seed. I have a brain, and use that as well as I can to help others.
Personally I say you can have it all, and my share aswell. It just does not interest me at all.
