A conundrum

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
You gave an opinion, not an explanation.
In this case, what's the difference? My opinion is reasonable as explained. Please attempt to dispute a point. It would behoove your argument to present the basis for your assertion.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Then why waste time arguing.
Because:

- I enjoy antagonizing you, you're an easy target and IMO, the funniest thing about you in particular is that you're really kind of angry most of the time that people like me are messing with you, yet you still sign your posts "love". It is incredibly transparent. I find it deliciously hypocritical.
- I enjoy the scope of social interaction at sciforums.
- I enjoy the mental excercise.
- I enjoy exploring interesting topics.

Originally posted by Jan Ardena

It would appear you are the idiot for wasting precious time
LOL.. okay Jan, you busted me. Oh man, you're so pissed off! Hehe, just think of jesus jan. That should calm you down. Hehe.. Uhm.. Jan, I don't mean to freak you out here but uhm.. I have never wasted a minute of my life. Can you understand that? I challenge you miss love, to wrap your mind around how I might constrew that I've never wasted a minute of my life. I don't think you can do it.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

vehemently arguing
This should be a clue to you.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

with severe negative emotion
Oh Janny, you don't understand! If I'm pissed, I get angry and then I get over it. Zero baggage. I argue with you and call you names sometimes because I'm so frustrated... my mind bloody from flailing itself against your THICK SKULL. When I think about it later, I find the frailty of my humanity most amusing. I consider it part of what I think of as the "cosmic joke". I fully embrace it.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

about something you have “no” respect for. :(
No Jan, it's your ability to think that I have no respect for, not the topic in general. You probaby won't get this, but just because I think you're stupid doesn't mean I don't respect you.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

That is total nonsense.
On what basis Jan? Unfounded claims seem to be your forte` sweetie.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

I do not respect your bits and peices intellect either
Then who is the idiot for wasting their time?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

and as for your belief system, faith in reason, what does that actually mean?
Jan, I've explained it multiple times on this site. If you're actually interested, wade through my posts and find it. Otherwise, I'll not waste my time with your insincerity (though it is also deliciously hypocritical).
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

All you do is pass judgement and spew insult, and if you manage to intimidate someone into some sort of compromise, then the insults may become milder.
No, that's not all I do Jan, but it is part of it. I don't pretend to love you. I judge your words. I do not know you. If I did I might judge you, but I'm wise enough to know that my judgement doesn't really count for much except for when you're dealing with me. Do you see a lesson in that? Hehehehe.. I doubt you do.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Where is the respect?
Where do you want it sweetheart? Do you even know what it is? What if I am showing you great respect and you don't see it because my approach to everything is so different from yours? Can you even see how that could be possible?

Does being called stuff actually hurt you? Do you take responsibility for your reaction to comments or do you blame everyone else for your problems?

And further, I've already told you: I do not respect your ability to think. You're quite bad at it from what I can tell. You can't see that I don't really care about all that? I don't know you Jan. I just see words. I hate your words because to me they appear despicably hypocritical and well, basically retarded. I enjoy them for the same reason.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Or another question, what kind of respect is it?
I respect it when I see signs of a cogent argument. Hence my lack of respect for your words.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

One thing which is apparent on this board, is that most (if not all) the people who express belief in God and spirituality, have a very good visible standard of respect to others, irregardless of their mind-set.
You're certainly living a happy fantasy aren't you? Hehe.. you forgot Whatsup? There have been many like him.

Regardless, Jan it's hallarious to me that in the same post you say "people who express belief in God and spirituality, have a very good visible standard of respect to others" in the same post that you tell me "It would appear you are the idiot for wasting precious time" and "you are one of the most ignorant people on this board". No doubt I have pressed you to make such comments, but do you see the hypocracy? Jan, it's obvious, you seeth behind your auspices of love. I find that telling. I'm sure you'll make up something as to why it isn't.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

You should take a leaf out of their book. ;)
I don't like their book. Seems to breed ignorance. *looks at Jan like "hey, there's a good example"* I could be nicer sometimes Jan I know. I am a jerk sometimes. I accept it. Do you accept that sometimes you're a jerk too?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Firstly, I do not presume God exists, I believe God exists.
IMO, there's no significant difference. Maybe you can explain the difference from your perspective.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

With regard to ignorance, you are one of the most ignorant people on this board.
Hehe, you'd like to think so I'm sure, but why? I vehemently challenge your utter BS. There's proper motivation. Lashing out like that... how.. un-christian. Tisk tisk. LOL.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

It is quite amazing, your level of ignorance, and then you claim to be a man of reason.
Jan jan jan. Baseless claims sweetie! Come on! Try harder! Please for chrissake, make sense! If you want people to think I'm not a man of reason, DEMONSTRATE IT, don't just claim it.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Where is your reasoning? :(
About ten stories OVER YOUR HEAD.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Instead of trying to put people down, why don’t you explain or give reason for your opinions. as to why you think they are wrong in their belief?
You give no basis for your accusation. Just a little taste of evidence to the contrary in my post to Canute: "When theist assumes "god exists" or "this is evidence of god", she/he has an associated opportunity cost. If god exists then god doesn't not exist. If I know god is purple, god is not any other color. I mean that by making the assumption that god has the properties that a theist claims that they do, the preclude other theories from plausibility. IMO, as a reasonable person I think that unnacceptable. Hence agnosticism regarding epistemology."

You said I'm just putting your down without giving a reason for it. I put you down because YOU ARE A FRAUD as I have just shown. I give reasons where your comments warrent them. Assenine assertions from you like the one I just trashed are the reason I resort to merely applying the appropriately earned title of "idiot". If the shoe fits, you'd be too stupid to wear it eh? No?
Hehe, cheap shot I know but I thought it was kind of funny variating on the addage and all. Jan, I would respect you if you would bother to actually think sometime but you repeatedly fail to bother so to keep myself entertained while I correct you I act like a jerk to you. I thought chicks dug that kind of thing? LOL. Nevermind.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

This is what I mean about being brainwashed, that is not what I said, nor is it what I meant.
Sure Jan. Maybe you can explain how my paraphrase of this: "i have not claimed to "understand" "Him", but through observing myself, people, nature, i have developed some understanding." (which you said) is innaccurate?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Please try as hard as you can Wes, to actually listen to what people say, without any preconceived ideas.
This coming from YOU? I'm think of a pot. No it's a kettle. Something about it being black? LOL. That's rich Jan.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

You may just surprise yourself and learn something one day.
Man you're getting your condescension all over me! Ick!
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Otherwise, your claim of being a man of reason, will remain as a dry joke.
You wonder why I insult you? Hehe.. there's a sign!
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Yeah?
Jan, you're like Sadaam babe. You've long since lost the argument but yet keep claiming victory from your exile. Hehe.. you go girl!
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Cool.
You don't come of as cool Jan. You come off like just as big of a jerk as I do but all convoluted.

If you really give a shit Jan, in order to understand where I'm coming from you have to understand that I don't take this seriously. IRL, relationships are more important that arguments. I'm a gregarious guy. I LOVE to make people laugh. I have a LOT of love in my life and consider myself incredibly fortunate to have a wonderfull family and wonderful people in my life. For me, sciforums is a place to explore ideas. The way I conduct myself with you here is only somewhat representative of how I would interact with you IRL. IMO, vehement argumentation is the name of the game here. If you're not willing to be vehement about your argument, then you really aren't invested in it.

As far as I can tell, you're only vehement about not being proven wrong. IMO, that makes you very very shallow. Maybe I'm wrong. Could you admit the same?
 
Originally posted by 420Joey
Get over your self wes :bugeye:

That's SO helpful. I can't believe I didn't think of that BEFORE!!!

You're a life-saver. :rolleyes:

Dude, you got sumthin to say? Please, elaborate.
 
Originally posted by DJSupreme23
We can agree, that faith and reason are two seperate entities.
Interestingly, reason without faith is useless. You can reason all kinds of bull crap, does that make it true?
What puzzles me, is this:

While rejecting the tool of reason - science - as a means to provide answers in life, the Theists themselves try to use reason to argument for their beliefs.

Naturally, such a self-contradictory undertaking is doomed to fail?
What puzzles me is this: Atheists, while rejecting the tool of acceptance - faith - through their reasoning - never seem to realise the faith they display in having any confidence in their power of reasoning in the first place. Crap it's sooooooo wieeeeeeerd.:confused:
 
Re: Re: A conundrum

What puzzles me is this: Atheists, while rejecting the tool of acceptance - faith - through their reasoning - never seem to realise the faith they display in having any confidence in their power of reasoning in the first place. Crap it's sooooooo wieeeeeeerd.:confused:

Hey Jan,

MarcAC has hit that whole faith in reason thing right on the nose. Do you see what it means now?
 
I thought faith in reason was more clearly testable than faith in a deity. Ie you can experiment with the results in ways that are commonly accessible to everyone else, yet when it comes to religious beliefs, they all seem to be different for each person in some way or other. (yes, that is a bti of a generalisation.)
 
Originally posted by guthrie
I thought faith in reason was more clearly testable than faith in a deity. Ie you can experiment with the results in ways that are commonly accessible to everyone else, yet when it comes to religious beliefs, they all seem to be different for each person in some way or other. (yes, that is a bti of a generalisation.)

Faith in reason is reasonable by definition. Faith in invisible all-powerful sadists is not.
 
I thought faith in reason was more clearly testable than faith in a deity. Ie you can experiment with the results in ways that are commonly accessible to everyone else,
Any examples?
yet when it comes to religious beliefs, they all seem to be different for each person in some way or other. (yes, that is a bti of a generalisation.)
Reason stems mostly from what can be observed - you see it. Each person is an individual - maybe that 'deity' speaks to each person in a different way - maybe the differences are of negligable importance? - not advocating any New Age beleif here. Scientists 'neglect' some parts of their measurements due to the fact that... "Heck... it hardly makes a big diff."... maybe relgious folk need to do the same? Of course, a comparison between the mass of Jupiter and its satellite where the satellite mass can be 'neglected' is not the same as comparing the One true Triune God to, say, 3 million hindu figurines [gods]... or "invisible all-powerful sadists".;)
Faith in reason is reasonable by definition.
Cool, reason makes itself reasonable... and I'm not laughing... it's like looking in the dictionary and seeing "Hearing - the ability to hear.":)
 
Cool, reason makes itself reasonable... and I'm not laughing... it's like looking in the dictionary and seeing "Hearing - the ability to hear." :)

Is "it is reasonable to think of reason as a reasonable tool to yield reasonable results" the same as "hearing is the ability to hear"?

there is nothing wrong with either of those assertions as they are merely descriptive of the effect of conjugating a root word. the appearance of recursiveness is illusory. if the word "hear" or the word "reason" were to define itself then it would be a circular definition.

though i find your supportive evidence flawed, i do agree with your point. ultimately the only way out of the "this could be the matrix" thing is acceptance that belief in your input as real is a reasonable thing to do. that leap requires faith. my contention however is that the distance of the leap regarding 'faith in reason' is zero. the distance of the leap for theists is technically infinity. i'll take the leap i don't have to make.
 
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ultimately the only way out of the "this could be the matrix" thing is acceptance that belief in your input as real is a reasonable thing to do. that leap requires faith. my contention however is that the distance of the leap regarding 'faith in reason' is zero.
It looks as if the argument that reason requires "more of a leap" than faith does, revolves around a paradigm that the only valid experience is made possible by reason. I.e., the only experience that is ultimately valid, is one that is ultimately logical. (Somebody might be able to suggest a better word than "valid", but I define it here in the sense of a something that is equally real than the reality we perceive, and equally relevant).

I think this exhibits a kind of myopia that borders on artificial clairvoyance. It postulates that something is only valid (real) if it can be perceived within the scope of reason (or rather, the limits of reason). From within this paradigm, everything that falls "outside" the bounds of the understanding of one applying his own brand of reason looks like speculation and superstition - when actually every experience outside is forced to be speculation and superstition.

It is easy to see how this paradigm evolved. After the age of enlightenment, reason became the sine qua non of human experience. Realism began with a few core memes - one being that scientific enquiry could describe our reality sufficiently, another was that humanity was fully equipped to understand everything that could exist. These were the result of a kind of rebellion of the mind against the incomprehensible horrors of two world wars. But this "humans could, are, and will be victorious over all aspects of life" mentality became so ingrained - so subconsciously true - that everything pre-modern was committed to the dark ages. To the extent that we are still baffled how such comparably primitive cultures as the Egyptians and Incas could come up with the wonders of cosmology and architecture without the benefit of the process of reason that we acquired through science and the verifiable proof.

The reality is that - while unarguably beneficial and being the building block of civilization and science as we know it - many people have become so brainwashed that the only reality, the only "kind of truth" that might be true, is the only that is valid within the self-imposed bounds of rational thought and tempered on the anvil of scientific epistomology.

I guess the question I'm asking is: Is "reality", as defined by science - i.e. being measurable, testible, and objectively verifiable, the only valid kind of reality? Does it necessarily and undeniably place anything that exists outside its bounds to the "not yet" category, or even further, to the "invalid and cannot exist" category? Is the post-modern paradigm the only one that can describe truth accurately?

If so, why? And if not - what other means of testing validity do we have than the scientific method?
 
In this case, what's the difference? My opinion is reasonable as explained.
Your opinion, is the opinion of a simpleton, as is your reason.

I hate your words because to me they appear despicably hypocritical and well, basically retarded.

You hate my words? :D
You hate……period, it comes easily with the frustration of not understanding something while thinking you do.

"It would appear you are the idiot for wasting precious time" and "you are one of the most ignorant people on this board". No doubt I have pressed you to make such comments, but do you see the hypocracy?

Pressed?
Not at all.

I am a jerk sometimes.

LOL!!

IMO, there's no significant difference. Maybe you can explain the difference from your perspective.

Go look in a dictionary. :rolleyes:

Hehe, you'd like to think so I'm sure, but why? I vehemently challenge your utter BS.

Non-sense, you are incapable of understanding what you term as my BS.

About ten stories OVER YOUR HEAD.

You’re gonna need a lot of toy bricks. :D

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by =SputniK-CL=
Jan...

The soul, for your information, has no connection with the supernatural...

And your source of disinformation is................(drumroll)

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Your opinion, is the opinion of a simpleton, as is your reason.
Jan, are you just calling me a simpleton because I've called you the same? You surely know that you're wrong.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

You hate my words? :D
You hate……period, it comes easily with the frustration of not understanding something while thinking you do.
You propose to know me from my interaction with you here and proceed to assess my entire being as "hate". Then you call yourself christian. I think this unwise for the reasons that:

- You simply do NOT know nor comprehend much that I say as is made obvious by your complete avoidance of addressing the points at hand.

- Doesn't your silly book COMMAND that you don't do that?
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Non-sense, you are incapable of understanding what you term as my BS.
Can you cite a specific example Jan? Maybe you're right.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

You’re gonna need a lot of toy bricks. :D
It's amusing that you don't see it.
Originally posted by Jan Ardena

Love

Jan Ardena.

Oh, let's stop kidding each other and make out. Come over here love girl. Hehe.. I that's almost as disengenuous as your sign-off.

Description of Ad Hominem
Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:


Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
 
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