A Challenge

[shane1985]

Originally posted by EvilPoet
How long has the 'I'm right and you're not' fight been going on? Too long I think. What exactly is everyone fighting for? A belief system? Freedom to not have one? To fight over stuff like that seems pointless and absurd to me.

What defines what is 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to personal beliefs anyway? What works for me might not work well for someone else and vice versa. In my mind that makes both ways right. To me spirituality is like going to the bathroom - it is a private affair.

The point is, society cannot possibly work if everyone has their own idea of what is right and wrong. Suppose I think murder is right? While this is an extreme suggestion, it is based on the same "logic."

 

[edgar]

lol if we didnt argue...then their would be no sci forums...

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by shane1985
The point is, society cannot possibly work if everyone has
their own idea of what is right and wrong. Suppose I think
murder is right? While this is an extreme suggestion, it is
based on the same "logic."

No matter what your personal philosophy is - you
still have to live by the laws of society don't you?

 

[Miguel]

Originally posted by cyberia
I would like any Christian here to explain or refute their ideas and philosophies with out relying on the bible or quoting the bible.

Example topics:

Does god exist?

Homosexuality? Good bad indifferant?

Is Christianity the True Religion?

Go too!

God exists? Yep, why not?

Homosexuality? A strange behaviour, but i won't judge it.

True Religion? Maybe, why not?

 

[Jenyar]

No matter what your personal philosophy is - you
still have to live by the laws of society don't you?

The problem is exactly with people who don't, isn't it? If they consider their personal philosphy to hold more authority than society in general, they are more likely to listen to themselves than to the authorities. Everybody who knows better will call it selfish, and try to point out the wisdom of the law, but that person will secretly think he knows better.

Let me change your quote: No matter what your personal philosophy is - you still have to live by the laws of God don't you?

The question is whether the authority of society, or God, is recognized at all. That is the essence of lawlessness, and sin.

 

[SnakeLord]

Does god exist?

Homosexuality? Good bad indifferant?

Is Christianity the True Religion?

A) Personally i feel if we were created it was by an alien race of beings that have more faults than we do, although they were well in advance scientifically. There are many many references or things which could be construed as aliens/ufos in the bible, and there's no reason to believe any guy that comes down from up there is something mystical. When you think about it what would an angel be? It comes from heaven/s which is clearly stated in the bible time and time again, even by god, as being up. When someone comes down from up it's quite pertinent to give possibility to his being an alien.

Questions would arise stating: Well what created them? etc etc. The fact is we know bugger all about bugger all. We don't know anything. What we have left are a bunch of badly translated, multi times handed down stories, man made writing of his own view on things. We know nothing, neither did they. They made up their own stories, so do we.

We all know about those little guys that sit in our heads giving us moral instructions... to some people many thousands of years ago that could have been construed as a godly being.

Moses: Shall we go and destroy this city?
His brain: Yeah man, go kill them all you will succeed
Moses: Ah, thank you. God has spoken...

None of what we're reading has ultimate validity simply because we weren't there to see it.

B) I'm sorry but it's bad imo. The anal passage is a place for shit to leave, not dicks to penetrate. That's a fact.

What gets me though is why god finds homosexuals "detestable" but makes absolutely no mention of paedophiles. He makes no laws stopping anyone sleeping with kids. He says: "Do not be queer, do not sleep with animals, do not sleep with your brothers wife, do not sleep with your fathers sister, do not sleep with your mothers mother..." and so on but NOT ONCE does he say: "Do not sleep with kids." God's a paedophile perhaps?

C) Christians wouldn't know the truth if it got up and slapped them in the head. Of course none of us do, but christians take it one step further. They assume they can just pick and choose whatever they want to believe and ignore the rest whether god, jesus or the holy fairy said it. Many times i've heard a religious person say: "Well that part doesn't mean anything to christians.." How so? Did god say: "Im only referring to jews with this rule"? Most probably haven't even sat down and read the bible- instead they just pass on whatever their preacher or parents say and regard it as absolute fact above everything else at the behest of every single other religious belief on the face of the planet. Of course no other religions are any better, it's like the worlds largest competition. As someone once said here: "My gods dick is bigger than your gods dick".

Just out of interest in Numbers 30 God commands that a woman cannot refuse giving sex to her husband. If she makes a vow not to sleep with her husband he can, with rights given by god, break her vow and take her anyway. Do you modern day god abiding christian women accept this? Would you class unwanted sex, even by your husband, as technical rape? Did you know god allows, and even commands, such activity? Don't go to the police if your husband rapes you- he's perfectly in line with gods laws.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Let me change your quote: No matter what your personal philosophy is - you still have to live by the laws of God don't you? The question is whether the authority of society, or God, is recognized at all. That is the essence of lawlessness, and sin.

Interesting - why did you feel the need to change my words to fit your philosophy? I have my beliefs and you have yours, what makes your way better than mine? You are free to believe what you want as far as I am concerned, why is it not ok for me to do the same as far as your concerned? Who or what says you are right and I am wrong? God? The bible?

 

[Jenyar]

Just out of interest, the legal commands of Numbers are much more reasonable than the code of Hammurabi or no law at all. Since men were not only the father of the family but also the legally responsible person, they had to have control over any promises made "under their name". In Numbers 30 the command is to keep your word.

If you sign a legally binding contract with an employer, but you have the intention of doing something that is against the interests of the company, it is just as understandable that the company has legal authority.

A marriage is a legal contract - but in the Bible it is also a promise to God. The goal was establishing authority and order. Buy the way, Numbers 30 says nothing about sex. Under the contract of marriage they are not allowed to deny each other intercourse, because it might lead to adultery and infidelity. It is a condition of the contract.

The point of all of this is this: all sin is against God first and foremost. The only reason we can have part in the kingdom of God is by the grace of God and by not living false lives.

 

[Jenyar]

Evilpoet,

Say your theory of God et al proves out to be true and God et al does exist, what then? How does that change things in your mind? If your theory of God et al proves out to be false, what then? How does that change things in your mind? What is it about the concept of God et al that causes you to cling to it so dearly? Promise of salvation? Eternal bliss? What? Rather than looking in a book --any book-- for answers perhaps you should be looking within.

I am trying to show you how my reality and Christianity makes sense together, by taking a principle you believe in yourself. I was indicating how they intersect. It doesn't have to be about right and wrong, and it doesn't have to be as different as black and white. God is not so far removed from everyday life as people think (or make Him out to be).

 

[SnakeLord]

Buy the way, Numbers 30 says nothing about sex. Under the contract of marriage they are not allowed to deny each other intercourse, because it might lead to adultery and infidelity. It is a condition of the contract.

Oh im sorry.... intercourse and sex are two completely different things? Either answer my questions or dont, don't mess about with pointless crap. thanks.

Condition of the contract....... Ok, do you sign up for that? I guess you must otherwise you're "Sinning against god first and foremost"?

 

[New Life]

I think (not having studied numbers in depth) that women are not to deny their husbands sex when they want it (same goes for men to their wives), but if they (one or both) feel that they need to abstain from sex for a while to focus more on God then the other is to respect that.

thats what i remember from the last time i looked at that passage

 

[SnakeLord]

I think (not having studied numbers in depth) that women are not to deny their husbands sex when they want it (same goes for men to their wives), but if they (one or both) feel that they need to abstain from sex for a while to focus more on God then the other is to respect that.

thats what i remember from the last time i looked at that passage

There's nothing wrong with a woman not wanting sex, a man not wanting sex, or anyone denying anyone sex. The point is why the fuck is it such a big concern of god? He commanded that a woman cannot deny herself to her husband.... The last part about respecting if they want to abstain from sex to focus on god is not mentioned anywhere and thus is worthless.

If my wife wasnt in the mood for sex and i said "god says i can get it one way or the other" i'd expect to receive a smack in the head. However that is what god commanded. I wonder why it's of any concern to this perfect being that women have no rights concerning the 'giving over' of their own body.

 

[Jenyar]

If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you, clearly there is something wrong in the marriage that should be addressed first. God isn't forcing anybody to do anything. Anyway, the law wasn't enforced by the husband, but by the priests. In my opinion tsuch a law is a smart way to force a couple to go for counselling, rather than for the marriage to fall apart. It did what the Law is supposed to do: to expose what is wrong so that it can be addressed.

And the emphasis is on not denying sex - not on forcing anybody to have sex. You're not stupid and you know it's wrong. (although the question of whether a husband can rape his wife has only recently been addressed in the courts).

The passage which says they may abstain from sex for a period of prayer or fasting is in the New Testament:
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of selfcontrol.

 

[answers]

answers

A Challenge
I would like any Christian here to explain or refute their ideas and philosophies with out relying on the bible or quoting the bible.

Example topics:

Does god exist?

Homosexuality? Good bad indifferant?

Is Christianity the True Religion?

Go too!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmmm, no bible, well, you didn't say I can't pray, so I'll do that now...lol.

The bible is a Christian's sword, so basically your asking me to go into battle without a weapon, so I'll be very surprised if I even partially win this one. But I'll try it anyway (after all I have asked for God's help).

Does god exist? Yes! Why you ask? Let's give an illustration. A little boy, unable to understand much, is told by his father not to touch the heater in their lounge room because it will burn him. The little boy thinks, okay, Dad tells me not to touch, so I wont touch. (This little boy has faith in his father's words, and a belief that he shouldn't touch this heater because it's hot). BUT then the father leaves the room, and the boy starts doubting his faith in the father and thus the heat. So he reaches out and touches the heating bar, and get's burnt. (The boy no longer believes that the heater is hot, he knows it's hot. This is because experience, has testified to the fact.) It is for this reason that I say yes the father (GOD) exists. Because I have touched the heating bar of salvation, and I no longer believe, I know that God exists. It is for this reason that no true Christian will leave the faith. Because a Christian is someone who knows the father (which cannot be down except through Jesus) and it's because of that KNOWLEDGE that no scientific formular, or philosophical arguement, will ever be able to change a true Christians mind, because that mind has an irremovable scar on it, which is the knowledge of God.

Homosexuality? Good bad indifferant? -- Homosexuality is bad. Homosexuals are not. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Homosexuality is an historical and present day problem. In ancient Rome, there were so many homosexuals, that the population growth dropped. This is an historical argument (notice it's not biblical). And present day, aids and many other deseases, are the fruits of this sin. I think most homosexuals are nice ppl, nicer then straight ppl most the time. But I think it's pretty obvious, that you don't have to be attracted to the same sex to be nice. Sin can be avoided. I have talked to homosexuals before, I've even talked to a christian who was being tempted in that area, and I explained to him that temptation isn't a sin, sin is following through on those desires. He agreed, and he said that he wouldn't go through and do what he desired, becuase his own conscience told him it was not right to do. By the way, Atheists are hypocrites if they are for homosexuality. Because it is harming human evolution, and isn't that what life is all about, evolving, and enjoying that evolution (but only if it doesn't take away from that evolution). - by the way this is atheists view not mine - BUT I could be wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if I was, because I'm weaponless in this fight.

Is Christianity the True Religion? -- Let me start off with saying, I hate the word religion. Christianity shouldn't be called a religion, it should be called truth, or simply christianity. All "religion" is false, because it's not true Christianity. (Confused yet, maybe that's becuase it's confusing, but I'll go on).

This is using historical arguments once again, this also gives proof of Jesus' resurrection, and the existence of God. It's a sermon I wrote for the church newsletter, my first one (aw isn't that great lol)
It's not too long, only about 400 words. Enjoy:

Title: Just A Belief?

The following is a summary of the wonderful fate of Jesus' Apostles:
Phillip was crucified (Phrygia A.D 54), Barnabas was burned to death (Cyprus A.D 64), Peter was crucified (Rome A.D 69), Paul was beheaded (Rome A.D 66), Andrew was crucified (Achaia A.D 70), Matthew was beheaded (Ethiopia A.D 60), Luke was hanged (Athens A.D 93), Thomas was speared to death (Calamina A.D 70), Mark was dragged to death (Alexandria A.D 64), and James was clubbed to death (Jerusalem A.D 66). – (By the way this is historical information, not biblical).

These followers of Christ did not live a life of temptation, persecution, and tribulation, which ended in brutal deaths, for no reason. You see the only reason that could justify these martyrs' actions, was to spread the message of God's mercy, in sending His only son to die on the cross so that we may be saved and God glorified.

According to a study by Regent University, in 1998 there were approximately
156,000 Christian martyrs throughout the world. We put so much emphasis and importance on life that we cannot see any reason why someone would die just for a belief. But this isn't 'just a belief' this is the most important truth that anyone could possibly know. Do you really think that those hundreds of thousands of people would have died for 'just a belief'?

Now with modern day, Islamic and cult “martyrs” people often think, who was it that these insane apostles killed with themselves. However unlike many modern day non-Christian martyrs, the apostles died not in the action of trying to take the life of others, but in trying to give life to others, through Jesus Christ. The main difference between the apostle’s martyrdoms, and modern day non-Christian’s, is that these apostles knew for sure, whether or not Jesus was who he claimed to be. They were there through his preaching, miracles, and resurrection, they knew for sure whether or not these things were true. The interesting thing is, that these apostles died for what they called truth. And like C. S. Lewis said,

"You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you."

Ask yourself, would twelve men die for a belief, which they knew was false? Would you die for a belief that the sky is pink, when you know that it is not?

Is Christianity 'just a belief' to you, or is it something worth a lot more, is it a truth worth dying for?

By Tim Hall

(P.S This is biblical backing for the Christian: Hebrews 11:35-38, concerning the fate of the apostles - They have been "tortured,...had trial of mockngs and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented - of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth".)

If you disregard this message, you are saying that the apostles went through all these things, for something that they knew was a lie.

Or

You can take in this message, and simply say to God: "I believe, because you are true, I have sinned ----- (not following the ten commandments http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001.shtml )-----, I have missed your mark, I am SORRY, I accept the sacrifice and forgiveness given by Jesus Christ on the cross - thankyou, in Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

After this, whether you prayed this prayer or not, this site may be beneficial: http://www.livingwaters.com/articles_growth.shtml

May God bless the humble, and bring the weight of the law down on the proud.

 

[SnakeLord]

*sigh* i feel like i'm at church.

Does god exist? Yes! Why you ask? Let's give an illustration. A little boy, unable to understand much, is told by his father not to touch the heater in their lounge room because it will burn him. The little boy thinks, okay, Dad tells me not to touch, so I wont touch. (This little boy has faith in his father's words, and a belief that he shouldn't touch this heater because it's hot). BUT then the father leaves the room, and the boy starts doubting his faith in the father and thus the heat. So he reaches out and touches the heating bar, and get's burnt. (The boy no longer believes that the heater is hot, he knows it's hot.

You missed out an integral part of the story. I will conclude it for you now:

The boy touches the heater and burns his hand. "Ouch, that hurt" he says. His dad rushes in the room and says: "Son, you ain't worthy. Now go to hell for the rest of eternity."

It is for this reason that no true Christian will leave the faith.

Funny..... one of my wifes best friends was a devoted and 'true' christian speaking with the same manner you do. Last month she 'saw the light' and said the whole thing was utter garbage. I'm sure you'll now give some debate to promote her as being a fraud christian even though you never met her.

He agreed, and he said that he wouldn't go through and do what he desired

That would be completely irrelevant. It was jesus who basically said: If you look at a woman with lust you have already sinned because you desired it. If you look at your brother in anger you have already sinned because you felt that anger. Strange.. knowing jesus so well i thought you would have already known that.

I'd say in accordance with christian dictatorship he's already fucked.

Is Christianity the True Religion? -- Let me start off with saying, I hate the word religion. Christianity shouldn't be called a religion, it should be called truth, or simply christianity. All "religion" is false, because it's not true Christianity.

Lol man.

this also gives proof of Jesus' resurrection

You guys really need to go and find out what the word 'proof' means. That and 'fact'.

These followers of Christ did not live a life of temptation

Well it would seem apparent they were. After all were they not trying to persuade or 'tempt' others to believe as they did? regardless of whether their beliefs were true or not they did live a life of temptation- tempting others to join them.

importance on life that we cannot see any reason why someone would die just for a belief.

Some people are easily led and will do the most stupid of things for a belief. Look at the twin towers tragedy. You would claim their beliefs were false but they died for them regardless. The reason they would die for their belief is exactly the same reason anyone else would die for theirs.

But this isn't 'just a belief' this is the most important truth that anyone could possibly know.

Yeah, truth to a small percentage of the human race. There are a million and one complete truths elsewhere on the planet just as important as yours.

Do you really think that those hundreds of thousands of people would have died for 'just a belief'?

It still happens, constantly.

the apostles died not in the action of trying to take the life of others, but in trying to give life to others

Trying to inflict their beliefs upon others. I think the christians do it better than anyone. Look at the countless people that have died in history for not being christian- look at the people throughout the world your religion has plagued. Instilling in them complete and total fear- the best way to get victims, but the worst way to promote love.

is that these apostles knew for sure, whether or not Jesus was who he claimed to be.

I knew this guy who knows for sure he is white and the queens cousin, (English queen). The guy is black guy from Brixton.

"You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you."

It has merit. Considering dying and going nowhere happens to be the scariest thing any mortal could consider it's no surprise people all of a sudden get all religious. It dampens the fear of the whole affair.

"Just go along till they turn out the light, there's nothing we can do to fight it.." --- The Eagles.

How sad is it just to die, rot in the ground and be forgotten about? Oh man, it's tragic- but it is inevitable.

Ask yourself, would twelve men die for a belief, which they knew was false?

The question is: Would those 12 men die for something they believed was true? Ask the hijackers of the planes that flew into twin towers for the answer. If you know something is false- no, but if you believe something is true- yes. Doesn't mean any of it is actually true.

Is Christianity 'just a belief' to you, or is it something worth a lot more, is it a truth worth dying for?

Again, it doesn't make it any more true than the truth the people who flew the plane into twin towers knew.

If you disregard this message, you are saying that the apostles went through all these things, for something that they knew was a lie.

No. They believed it was true, or should i say 'knew' it was true, (to them). There is no question of lies here. What is at question is what differentiates that truth to the billion other truths, many of which have led to people dying for it.

May God bless the humble, and bring the weight of the law down on the proud.

I have yet to meet a humble christian, and know many proud ones.

 

[Jenyar]

There is no such thing as a "true Christian". Nobody is safe from temptation. There is only a "true Christ", and a Christian is someone who testifies to this.

If someone says that anybody who has left the faith "was never a true Christian", it doesn't mean much. In retrospect from the final judgement, there will be those who persevered in their faith and those who didn't. But we don't know that yet.

The only "knowledge" that Christians have now is 1)the testimony of God's people and Christ's disciples, and 2)their faith (by the Spirit). Christ testified over God and his judgement, and His people testified to his mercy and our victory over sin.

Nobody is worthy. What justifies anybody in the eyes of God is our faith in Him, and how much we believe in a faith that comes from Him - not from ourselves.

So we touch the heater and get burnt. But do we go around telling people that we didn'd get burnt and see them make the same mistake? Of course all they have to go on is your testimony.

BTW Snakelord, what the father does is bandage his son's hand and asks him to listen next time.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
*sigh* i feel like i'm at church.

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a
happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her
as far away from a church as you can."
-Frank Zappa

 

[SnakeLord]

Nobody is safe from temptation

Yeah, you're right. I had hundreds of people trying to tempt me to be christian. I persevered that time around

how much we believe in a faith that comes from Him - not from ourselves.

If that faith comes from him its not my fault for not having faith? Being a 'true'? clairvoyant i will answer your upcoming comment in advance: "He could make the signal louder, i can't hear it." (If you were going to say: He is sending you that faith but you choose not to receive it- please, inform me of my psychic ability).

I will say it isn't because my ears choose not to hear, my eyes fail to see, my heart fails to feel. Perhaps i'm just a walking defect. I could carry on with my marvellous new found clairvoyant ability but that will ruin your fun of responding.

Oh, and before you ask, (because you're going to): "Yes, i have asked sincerely."

So we touch the heater and get burnt. But do we go around telling people that we didn'd get burnt and see them make the same mistake? Of course all they have to go on is your testimony.

Well whats to say it will burn them as it burns us? I think it's of paramount importance to always refer to things with a 'might, might not' status.

BTW Snakelord, what the father does is bandage his son's hand and asks him to listen next time.

I'd disagree. What the father does, (in my case at least), is to bandage the child and realise that no matter how many times my child chooses to go against my advice and wishes i will love them no less and will never ever ever condemn them for it. I guess most parents assume their children are plainly stupid. A child gets burned by a heater- he learns by himself not to do it again.

 

[Jenyar]

Maybe you're not clairvoyant, but you do have a predictably fixed idea of how one is supposed to gain faith...

By my understanding, if God does not force belief on you, then who am I to do it? I can only identify Christ in you, and leave the seeds to be watered. You will decide in the end what you know and what you don't.

Faith doesn't really have that much to do with the strength of your belief in God, but rather with the strength of God in your life. I'm not out to convert anybody, but I do my best to clear up misconceptions about my faith - yet it isn't just a personal conviction, it is something I didn't even "ask for sincerely". I am an eighth generation Christian, so I have plenty of history to back me up. I think people like MarkM are much more fortunate than I, to have personally experienced what you would call "conversion". I think it's more like a 'realization'.

To be honest, I think you will learn more about God from your relationship with your child than from me or anybody here.

 

[answers]

snake lord

You said: Trying to inflict their beliefs upon others. I think the christians do it better than anyone. Look at the countless people that have died in history for not being christian- look at the people throughout the world your religion has plagued. Instilling in them complete and total fear- the best way to get victims, but the worst way to promote love.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the past there have been bad people, and shock horror some also call themselves christian. I could spend time going into theology but it's already 10:52 pm and I have school tommorow.

Now in regards to Christians trying to inflict their beliefs on others, I agree that it is a bad thing, and doesn't promote freedom or love, just total fear. WELL isn't that what atheists think? But lets just spend a second with me agreeing. I agree that Christians shouldn't go around the world doing mission work, trying to change others beliefs, because that's taking away their freedom. In Zambia, I believe christians missionaries should leave. In Zambia they already have their own beliefs. Missionaries just came back from Zambia and were at my church, and they said one of the new beliefs that the people of Zambia had, was that if they have sex with a virgin it will get rid of aids. I think this belief is okay for them, and those christian missionaries shouldn't inflict their beliefs on them. Just because men with aids then go and rape 5 year old girls becuase they're virgins is okay, becuase it is their freedom, and their belief, christians shouldn't take away either.

I'm having trouble not to swear at you people right now, the only thing holding me back, is the fact that I know the devil is behind what you think, and I should hate the sin and not the sinner. I don't care how you reply to this, because the fact remains that true Christians do great work, and you hate them for it.