A challenge to Atheists! #2

[Aqueous Id]

Originally Posted by wynn
Oh, the weight of enlightenment!

I've never encountered someone so eager to call themselves enlightened, nor somrone who would say it so often, without regard for its appropriateness to the conversation.

I've also never encountered a truly enlightened person who was so self-congratulatory.

I'll leave it to you to decide which of these streaks has come to an end.

I used to think wynn was an adaptive-interactive program. I now am 51% sure wynn is an actual person. One of my reasons for thinking this is, there seems to be a terminal node to every interaction, in which the programmed response is

Oh the weight of enlightenment

If I was designing a pattern recognition system for textual interaction with forum posters, I can imagine a kernel level function call named WaitForEnlightenment. However, I can also imagine a text input procedure which, due to a glitch, accidentally reads its own internal name, producing the reply

Oh the weight of enlightenment

It may also be that wynn is wanting to discuss the Enlightenment.

or... here's a crazy one... maybe wynn has a very selective form of selective aphasia, and is trying to utter: lighten up.

What ever is going on there, I suppose we are supposed to be kept in the dark. Get it? In the dark. Yeah, that's gotta be it. wynn's treating this like a gaming site. Create a mock conversation, establish an unreachable kind of reasoning, leaving the other party in the dark as to the nature of the game, and then at the peak of confusion, issue the enlightenment charge, then count how many times this happens until someone calls wynn's hand.

OK wynn, is that it? Do I get a prize? OK, I call.

 

[wynn]

Who here believes themselves to be enlightened?

I don't, but there are several who do.

 

[Balerion]

Your sarcasm radar, is, apparently, trash.

Quite the contrary. It can easily sniff out a faux-intellectual twit's lame attempt to disguise masturbation as a cutting quip.

Of course, I don't need a radar of any sort to know that a quip as overused as the one you've employed here yet again is almost certainly one stolen by someone much dimmer than the person who originally used it. In other words, wynnie, call your Quip Guy and get yourself some new material.

 

[Balerion]

I used to think wynn was an adaptive-interactive program. I now am 51% sure wynn is an actual person. One of my reasons for thinking this is, there seems to be a terminal node to every interaction, in which the programmed response is



If I was designing a pattern recognition system for textual interaction with forum posters, I can imagine a kernel level function call named WaitForEnlightenment. However, I can also imagine a text input procedure which, due to a glitch, accidentally reads its own internal name, producing the reply



It may also be that wynn is wanting to discuss the Enlightenment.

or... here's a crazy one... maybe wynn has a very selective form of selective aphasia, and is trying to utter: lighten up.

What ever is going on there, I suppose we are supposed to be kept in the dark. Get it? In the dark. Yeah, that's gotta be it. wynn's treating this like a gaming site. Create a mock conversation, establish an unreachable kind of reasoning, leaving the other party in the dark as to the nature of the game, and then at the peak of confusion, issue the enlightenment charge, then count how many times this happens until someone calls wynn's hand.

OK wynn, is that it? Do I get a prize? OK, I call.

This could be why he/she/HAL has uttered some form of the phrase a dozen times over the last several days?

Could it be the same programmer behind the "Supernova from experimentation at Fermilab" bot? Paul W. Dixon, come on down!

 

[Arioch]

@wynn --

You do realize that if there is anything, regardless of how illogical it is, that god can't do then he is, by definition, not omnipotent. There may be a god(or multiple gods) and that god may be insanely powerful, but he can't be omnipotent.

 

[garbonzo]

I meant what are the blatant contradictions / false things in the Bible. What you said is mostly rehashings of what I said, and a lot of them can be explained by theists.

wow this may be the first god thread in which "defecate" was not part of an ad hom





God can not solve for x and y such that x=y and x≠y.

God can not have existed forever, as He would be forever approaching the present asymptotically.

The God of this very moment ... *now*... can not time travel to the moment he is telling Moses "I am the Lord your God", (i.e. coexist with himself) without lying.

God could not say "Let there be light" in Hebrew, since the language wasn't invented yet.

Before God said "let there be light" there was no light, only darkness. Therefore darkness existed forever. Therefore darkness can not be created.
That is, even God can't create darkness.

God can't create nothing.

God can't create "round" or "flat" or "ugly".

God can not draw a line that occupies 1cubic centimeter.

God can not do anything faster than the speed of light.

God can't guess.

God can't go online and argue here against his existence.

God can't make Rush Limbaugh "the Most Interesting Man in the World".

God can't commit suicide. Oh wait: Jesus. Uh, no, that's a keeper after all.

God can't uncrucify Jesus, and reinvent him as Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson and Osama Bin Laden.

God can't make me greater than Him.

God can not get down on his knees and beg for forgiveness, do 3 donkey kicks, lick my boots, and say: "Oh what a goose I am", while opening a brothel on every street corner in America.

God can't make you do anything. He can't make you hate him. He can't make you burn down a church, or use the Bible as emergency toilet paper.

God can't destroy Heaven.

God can't slap Jesus in the face.

God can't have an accident.

God can not: pray to Baal, or love Satan, lie, steal, commit adultery, or kill. Oh, wait: God can kill. OK so there's one thing he can do. Maybe he can lie, too. But I'm pretty sure he can't commit adultery.

God can not: turn himself into Gumby, with chewing gum legs, and make it the only chewing gum in the universe, and then walk and chew gum at the same time.

God can't take the apostrophe out of "can't".

God can't tell me what he can't

 

[Arioch]

You want contradictions in the bible? Well, you needn't look very far. Try looking in Exodus and finding out what evidence we have that more than three million(can't remember the exact number at the moment, but I know the bible says it was more than that) people could have even just crossed a desert(let alone spend forty years in one) without leaving so much as a single trace of their passage. Or you could ask why there were never large numbers of Hebrew slaves in Ancient Egypt, they always love that one(though the inevitable "the Egyptians didn't record losses" answer will come, but it will be horseshit as always).

 

[cosmictraveler]

Who here believes themselves to be enlightened?

I don't, but there are several who do.

At times I become enlightened about things that I before knew very little or nothing about. To then be able to grasp something that I've never understood for the first time gives me the feeling of that enlightenment. It doesn't happen often but when it does it is a very good feeling.

 

[garbonzo]

Well, is it to heavy for him, or did he rule that not even he can "move" this rock as a rule of thumb? If he made it to heavy he can surly make it light again.

Thank God he got the Ban Hammer, he was getting on my nerves with his trolling.

 

[Guru]

Garbonzo

Why not ask him if God made all the reptilians and made them live for millions of years before any humans evolved ..why was this not mentioned in the bible ( Of course you can change the evolved to created) On our planet timeline the reptilian race needs more space than humans do - what was the purpose of creating that race and made them live for millions of years without war and voluntary destruction like we humans have to face.

 

[garbonzo]

I got a reply back from him and would like an answer to this first before I move onto anything else:

Hi,

Actually, we do know that Daniel 9:24-27 was written prior to it's fulfillment. Even secular, naturalistic historians ascribe a date of around 168 BC to Daniel. This is because they refuse to accept the remarkable fulfillment of it's prophecies regarding the Medo Persian, Chaldean, Grecian and Roman Empires. They would date it later if they could, but they can't because of the historical evidence. Multiple Daniel manuscripts were found among the dead Sea scrolls.

The remarkable prophecy regarding the Suffering Servant is also found in the Dead Sea Scroll's Great Isaiah Scroll, dated 100-150 BC. I invite you to read this translation of that passage from The Great Isaiah Scroll:

Column XLIV Isaiah 52:13 to 54:4
1. (Chapter 52:13.) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and be very high (14.) as those who were astonished
2. at him are many; because his visage was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
3. (15.) So shall he startle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which
4. was not told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
5. (Chapter 53:1) Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed (2) And he shall come up like a suckling before us
6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance
7. that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. (4) Surely our griefs he
9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God
[There is a scribal thumb print over lines 10 to 12.]
10. and afflicted. (5) and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction
11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. (6) All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way
12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us (7) He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not
13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open
14. his mouth. (8) From prison and from judgement he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of
15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him (PP)
16. (9) And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death
17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth (10) And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief. (PP)
18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH {&yod?&]
19. in his hand will advance. (11) Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous
20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. (12) Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones
21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors
22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.(PP)

( http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm)
Both of these prophecies were undeniably written at least 100 years prior to their fulfillment by Jesus. And these are not the only ones; I can provide you with more. You asked for evidence. Now you have it.
In Christ,
Rusty Entrekin

Speaking about Daniel 9:24-27;

Consider how all but verse 27 of this prophecy has been fulfilled:
March 5, 444 BC: Decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given.
+ 7 weeks of years (49 years) = 395 BC: This was the time required to rebuild the city according to verse 25, also the date of the writing of Malachi, which marked the close of the OT canon.
+ 62 weeks of years (434 years)= March 30, 33 AD: Approximate time of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem foretold in Zechariah: 9:9-10: " Rejoice greatly, Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." The prophetic time clock stops ticking here.
After this, as prophesied by Daniel, the Anointed one was put to death and had nothing (April 3, 33 AD).
As also prophesied by Daniel, in 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Roman armies (see Josephus).
At a future time, a ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem will confirm a covenant (perhaps with most of the Jewish people). At that time, the prophetic time clock will begin ticking again, and the last week, or seven years of this prophecy will be fulfilled.

This fulfillment is amazing evidence not only that Daniel was a true prophet, but that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Amag]

Let me ask you: If god was real, why would he make us in his image? Humans are wasteful,violent and very imperfect, as is to be expected of things happened naturally. All he did was set himself up for a challenge, and if he did that, say, because he was bored, he does not truly love us. If he did, he would not have made every disaster happen, every crusade carried out. One can make the argument that he did it to make us savor perfection more, but if he was truly omnipotent, he would be able to find another way, like making us all happy via designing us to BE happy.

This may be flawed, I am very young and not quite experienced with religion, having only gone to church when dragged there by a relative or, on one occasion, left at a Christmas mast while My family was playing rock band somewhere else in the building.

 

[garbonzo]

Let me ask you: If god was real, why would he make us in his image? Humans are wasteful,violent and very imperfect, as is to be expected of things happened naturally. All he did was set himself up for a challenge, and if he did that, say, because he was bored, he does not truly love us. If he did, he would not have made every disaster happen, every crusade carried out. One can make the argument that he did it to make us savor perfection more, but if he was truly omnipotent, he would be able to find another way, like making us all happy via designing us to BE happy.

This may be flawed, I am very young and not quite experienced with religion, having only gone to church when dragged there by a relative or, on one occasion, left at a Christmas mast while My family was playing rock band somewhere else in the building.

They have ways around it. The religion I was in states that we were originally perfect and knew what was right and what was wrong (the fruit was just figurative), so we wouldn't kill etc. But it was because Adam sinned (because he had free will) that we became like that. God because of his righteous standards needed someone to fill in for Adams disobediance. He couldnt just restart the human race because the angels would question. This way it shows that god did not make a mistake with the human race, since there are still good humans. It really doesn't make sense, but they explain it like they know what they are talking about, so I used to just accept it, lol.

But I would really like a rebuttal to the above quotation in my previous post please!

 

[garbonzo]

I got a reply back from him and would like an answer to this first before I move onto anything else:

Hi,

Actually, we do know that Daniel 9:24-27 was written prior to it's fulfillment. Even secular, naturalistic historians ascribe a date of around 168 BC to Daniel. This is because they refuse to accept the remarkable fulfillment of it's prophecies regarding the Medo Persian, Chaldean, Grecian and Roman Empires. They would date it later if they could, but they can't because of the historical evidence. Multiple Daniel manuscripts were found among the dead Sea scrolls.

The remarkable prophecy regarding the Suffering Servant is also found in the Dead Sea Scroll's Great Isaiah Scroll, dated 100-150 BC. I invite you to read this translation of that passage from The Great Isaiah Scroll:

Column XLIV Isaiah 52:13 to 54:4
1. (Chapter 52:13.) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and be very high (14.) as those who were astonished
2. at him are many; because his visage was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
3. (15.) So shall he startle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which
4. was not told to them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
5. (Chapter 53:1) Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed (2) And he shall come up like a suckling before us
6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance
7. that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. (4) Surely our griefs he
9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God
[There is a scribal thumb print over lines 10 to 12.]
10. and afflicted. (5) and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction
11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. (6) All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way
12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us (7) He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not
13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open
14. his mouth. (8) From prison and from judgement he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of
15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him (PP)
16. (9) And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death
17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth (10) And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief. (PP)
18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH {&yod?&]
19. in his hand will advance. (11) Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous
20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. (12) Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones
21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors
22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.(PP)

( http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm)
Both of these prophecies were undeniably written at least 100 years prior to their fulfillment by Jesus. And these are not the only ones; I can provide you with more. You asked for evidence. Now you have it.
In Christ,
Rusty Entrekin

Speaking about Daniel 9:24-27;

Consider how all but verse 27 of this prophecy has been fulfilled:
March 5, 444 BC: Decree to rebuild Jerusalem was given.
+ 7 weeks of years (49 years) = 395 BC: This was the time required to rebuild the city according to verse 25, also the date of the writing of Malachi, which marked the close of the OT canon.
+ 62 weeks of years (434 years)= March 30, 33 AD: Approximate time of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem foretold in Zechariah: 9:9-10: " Rejoice greatly, Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey." The prophetic time clock stops ticking here.
After this, as prophesied by Daniel, the Anointed one was put to death and had nothing (April 3, 33 AD).
As also prophesied by Daniel, in 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed by the Roman armies (see Josephus).
At a future time, a ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem will confirm a covenant (perhaps with most of the Jewish people). At that time, the prophetic time clock will begin ticking again, and the last week, or seven years of this prophecy will be fulfilled.

This fulfillment is amazing evidence not only that Daniel was a true prophet, but that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[indianmath]

God

God, God is not a thing or any showpiece to discuss abt or argument-ed abt. It is the total inner & outer feeling of every living & non living thing ( In fact i don't care abt the fact that who believes in this fact abt feeling).Now here I am not talking abt any lord shiva or any prophet but I am talking abt the omnipotent, kind, mighty...etc god i.e. nature & nature is not limited upto the planet earth only but it is beyond universe & our imagination ( now I don't know how nature can't carry its own load). In every religious books u will find that every noble man or hero of that religious book has described nature as god. So the more u discuss or argue abt god or nature the more u get confused.:m:
Let God bless everybody & every thing.
regards.

 

[garbonzo]

God, God is not a thing or any showpiece to discuss abt or argument-ed abt. It is the total inner & outer feeling of every living & non living thing ( In fact i don't care abt the fact that who believes in this fact abt feeling).Now here I am not talking abt any lord shiva or any prophet but I am talking abt the omnipotent, kind, mighty...etc god i.e. nature & nature is not limited upto the planet earth only but it is beyond universe & our imagination ( now I don't know how nature can't carry its own load). In every religious books u will find that every noble man or hero of that religious book has described nature as god. So the more u discuss or argue abt god or nature the more u get confused.:m:
Let God bless everybody & every thing.
regards.

Then don't say its God, say it is nature. Please don't derail my thread!

 

[indianmath]

Some say it is God some say it is nature.Bye
regards.

 

[sifreak21]

I'm talking about evidence, contradictions, etc. Or we could always say it is up to the theists to provide evidence and just crumple up their evidence?

ehh just MAYBE because theists point to this book 100% of the time as proof. yet when asked to verify that anything in that fairy tale actually happend they come up short 99.9% of the time

the .1 they do come up with is the places and a hole in a rock with a round door that could have easily been made after the fact.

atheist do not say NU UH GOD DOESNT EXSIST THIS BOOK THAT HAS ABSOLUTLY NO VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE THAT ANYTHING ACTUALLY HAPPENED SAYS SO

THAT my friend is why they dont have to prove the non exsistance of something/someone that there is no evidence to have ever exsisted

 

[Arioch]

@garbonzo --

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

[spidergoat]

God, God is not a thing or any showpiece to discuss abt or argument-ed abt. It is the total inner & outer feeling of every living & non living thing ( In fact i don't care abt the fact that who believes in this fact abt feeling).Now here I am not talking abt any lord shiva or any prophet but I am talking abt the omnipotent, kind, mighty...etc god i.e. nature & nature is not limited upto the planet earth only but it is beyond universe & our imagination ( now I don't know how nature can't carry its own load). In every religious books u will find that every noble man or hero of that religious book has described nature as god. So the more u discuss or argue abt god or nature the more u get confused.:m:
Let God bless everybody & every thing.

regards.

That is a very Hindu conception. I say if everything and nature is God, let's stop using the word God because it comes with too much baggage and doesn't add anything important. There is just nature.