911 Tape: Man Kills Two Burglars

Ok. They came onto his property and he says, threatened him. Now here's the thing I don't understand.

So what exactly didn't they listen to? He does not appear to have told them to stop. All he said was "Boom! You're dead!". Then the shots are heard. I am assuming from all reports that they were fleeing? Even Horn stated to the dispatcher when he returned inside his house that "he almost run down the street". So they should have listened and somehow survived when he said "Boom! You're dead!"? But then, he shot them straight away.

How exactly is someone fleeing down towards the street, with his back to Horn, a threat to Horn?

Tell me, do you think the police would have opened fire on two fleeing robbers? Or would they have attempted to chase them instead? I wonder, how many robbers do police shoot in the back as they attempt to flee and pose no danger or threat to anyone in the immediate surround?

I guess now you can just shoot anyone you catch in the middle of a crime (no matter what that crime happens to be), as a dollar saver.

Hell, I guess I should be thankful I don't live in Texas. Otherwise my neighbour could have shot me dead after I had to break into my own house when my two year old accidentally locked me out as I was hanging out the washing. Said neighbour would have been justified in shooting me in the back a few minutes later when I was taking the rubbish out in a large rubbish bag (with my keys now in my hand).:rolleyes:

First Horn said "MOVE [an] you're DEAD".

Horn knew the law well enough to know he was within his rights to protect his neighborhood. He spoke of that on the phone also.

Doesnt matter what I think police would have done. I dont flee from police. I wouldnt take the chance nor do I want to pay the penalty for fleeing a police officer.

Try to twist it any way you want, but Horn did NOT shoot his neighbor. Horn had met his neighbor and there was no doubt (in Horns assessment and in reality) these people were not members of the neighborhood. Thats the fact.

You go and shoot the wrong person, in the wrong circumstance, you can be charged with a crime. That part of the reality too.

Justice can be a balancing act. In this particular case, two criminals made several decisions that resulted in their absence from society.
 
That's right. I am testing your morality using different situations.

Besides any person with the slightest integrity knows that shooting someone in the back who is unarmed is cowardly shit. Kind of thing that used to get your grave spat on.

So lets wonder a bit about your morality.

So if Horn had shot them in the face, you'd feel better about it?
 
First Horn said "MOVE [an] you're DEAD".

Where does it say that in the transcript?

What he did do was ignore a direct order from a person who works for the local law enforcement. The dispatcher advised him and then ordered him to stay in his home. He refused several times. Instead, he basically advised the dispatcher that he was going to "not let them get away with this". The dispatcher repeatedly ordered him to stay inside his house. Again, he kept telling the dispatcher that he was going to go outside and stop them. The sound of his shotgun is then heard being cocked on the tape, he tells the dispatcher he is going to go outside, then all that is heard is his shouting "Boom! You're dead!" and then several gun shots. All of which hit the assailants in the back as they attempted to flee away from him. Please tell me, what kind of threat does someone pose if they are running away from you? In short, he took the law into his own hands and decided to be their judge, jury and executioner.

Horn knew the law well enough to know he was within his rights to protect his neighborhood. He spoke of that on the phone also.
Yes, he did know the law. Which shows a level of premeditation. As the dispatcher informed him, goods aren't worth killing someone over. But he ignored the dispatchers repeated pleas and orders to stay inside his house. He is not within his right to protect his neighbourhood. He is not a police officer entrusted with that duty. He decided he would be the neighbourhood protector and has killed two people as they attempted to flee from him for a few items that were in a bag of loot that were stolen from his neighbour's home. As I said above, he decided that he would be their judge, jury and executioner and he did so long before he stepped out of his home.

As the legislator who wrote the castle doctrine states:

But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."
http://cbs5.com/national/joe.horn.shoots.2.570499.html

Doesnt matter what I think police would have done. I dont flee from police. I wouldnt take the chance nor do I want to pay the penalty for fleeing a police officer.
He is not a police officer, though. He was a man who disobeyed and ignored direct orders from a law enforcement dispatcher to not leave his house and to not shoot anyone. Tell me, do you often ignore orders from people from your local law enforcement? If they tell you not to leave your house, would you ignore them and do it anyway? Because on top of shooting two men in the back, that's what Mr Horn decided to do. And here you are saying you wouldn't flee from the police, but you are saying Horn did a good thing in ignoring orders from the police to not leave his house and shoot.

Would you flee from a strange man with a shotgun who thought you weren't where you were supposed to be? I know I would without hesitation.

Try to twist it any way you want, but Horn did NOT shoot his neighbor. Horn had met his neighbor and there was no doubt (in Horns assessment and in reality) these people were not members of the neighborhood. Thats the fact.
Who is trying to twist anything? I was merely commenting that I am glad I don't live in Texas, because if I did and I was unfortunate enough to have some psycho like Horn living next door to me, I could very well have been shot and killed after I had to break into my own house after getting locked out by my 2 year old who was still inside the house and becoming distressed when he realised I could not get back inside to him and his baby brother.

You go and shoot the wrong person, in the wrong circumstance, you can be charged with a crime. That part of the reality too.
And? If my neighbour thought I was a criminal, he could very well have gotten away with it. After all, if you can get away with shooting a fleeing person in the back that posed no threat to you whatsoever (because when someone is running away from you, the threat is deemed to be over) because they were running away from you, I really have to wonder whether my neighbour would have been charged with a crime.

Justice can be a balancing act. In this particular case, two criminals made several decisions that resulted in their absence from society.
And now you have one individual who has decided he can take the law into his own hands and execute people because they robbed his neighbour's house, roaming free. I bet it gives his neighbours some comfort. Lets just hope none of them ever get locked our of their house or car at night. Tell me, do you think your TV or watch is enough to kill someone over? How about your neighbour's TV or watch?

Think about it.
 
I just got to say that looking over and over again this thread and at those magnificent good-natured faces...well I feel deeply happy that I never met either the burglars or the man who shot them...deeply happy.
 
bells that castle law in and of itself scares the shit out of me. I know i could well be going into someones house without there direct permission (or even knowlage) and the thought of some nutcase shoting first and asking questions latter scares me. It does happen anyway but at least here people know that the right to self defence ONLY aplies to direct threat to PEOPLE which does lower the chances somewhat. Still i have herd stories of ambos shot by vietnarm vets who rolled on there call direct buttons in there sleep and didnt wake up to answer dispatch.

I also have to wonder if you could get away with shooting a cop under that legislation. Cop goes to exicute a warrent on a drug dealers house, walks through the front door and gets shot by either the dealer or the 12 guage rigged up to shot the first person through the front door. Now he could well argue that he didnt KNOW they were cops and as such had the right to defend his property.

That being said this case is even WORSE than that (if thats possable) they were LEAVING, running away infact. It sickens me to think that the DPP couldnt even get this case to TRIAL let alone get a conviction on it. leaving aside this case in paticular what is this going to inspire?

Is the next person going to be someone like us breaking into there OWN house, is it going to be a race crime descised as this where a black person who has the AUDACITY to buy in a ritch white area gets shot because "ops sorry officer, i thought he was breaking in"
 
So if Horn had shot them in the face, you'd feel better about it?

I think *I* would. I can see letting Horn walk if he felt his life was in danger (even if he contributed to that by going outside to confront the criminals). As the story stands, it still seems that he might have been fearing for his life notwithstanding that he shot them in the back...but some part of me has to wonder at that.

If he thought he was in danger, then I'm glad he's a free man. If he thought, "they're getting away!" then he should spend some time in prison. The death penalty has its place, but for a single judge, jury and executioner to exact vigilante justice on them for a non-capital offense send a bad signal.

Had they been shot in the face, my doubts about the self-defense aspects would be somewhat allayed relative to their having been shot in the back.
 
bells that castle law in and of itself scares the shit out of me. I know i could well be going into someones house without there direct permission (or even knowlage) and the thought of some nutcase shoting first and asking questions latter scares me.

While tragedies do happen (like the Hattori incident), the general point of castle law is that a homeowner shouldn't be second guessed about decisions made in a difficult situation. I can see the merit behind that. I do prefer the duty to retreat, but mostly because it seems like common sense that if I and my family can escape without risk, that we do so, and because I o not imagine people ever would go out of their way to second guess me if I happened to feel there was a risk.

I have always imagined that some (perhaps "much") of the support for Castle Doctrine comes from people who believe, whether they admit it openly or not, that killing in defense of property is justified (as many do).
 
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see thats just the point, there IS no clarity issue in the homicide act (actually i think its the crimes act but you get the idea). The right to defend the life of someone else or the right to defend YOURSELF are written VERY plainly into law. The only clarity issue is wether you have a right to defend pets (bells can probably answer that), ie if someone is torchering say a dog do you have the right to take all nessary steps to protect that dog or any other pet or animal for that matter.

You DONT however have a right to kill your partner because he\she is threatning to break your TV, you DONT have the right to kill even JW because they come onto your property and you CERTAINLY dont have a right to kill emergency service workers because they have broken into your house.

Put it this way, how would the case have gone if one of those 2 was an under cover cop because cops WILL paticipate in crimes against property?
 
see thats just the point, there IS no clarity issue in the homicide act (actually i think its the crimes act but you get the idea). The right to defend the life of someone else or the right to defend YOURSELF are written VERY plainly into law. The only clarity issue is wether you have a right to defend pets (bells can probably answer that), ie if someone is torchering say a dog do you have the right to take all nessary steps to protect that dog or any other pet or animal for that matter.

You DONT however have a right to kill your partner because he\she is threatning to break your TV, you DONT have the right to kill even JW because they come onto your property and you CERTAINLY dont have a right to kill emergency service workers because they have broken into your house.

Put it this way, how would the case have gone if one of those 2 was an under cover cop because cops WILL paticipate in crimes against property?

On the other side, though, different states have different rules. In New York, I have no doubt Horn would have had a harder time, since John White was convicted, even though his claim of feeling threatened seems more plausible:

John White shooting
 
i really dont get the US, it makes apsolutly no sence to me. you have the cop beating of a black man (cant think of the name of the guy, really famous) where the cops get off, you have deaths in custody ON VIDEO TAPE and the cops a couple of months if convicted, you have incidents like the horn case and the nut doesnt even get tried and then you have a clear cut (going by your atical) case of self defence and the guy gets convicted.

What is it with the US????????
 
then they need to deal with it accordingly, do away with guns and then the rate of accidental shootings will reduce aswell

Actually no, get rid of legal guns and accidental shooting will probably stay just the same. Criminals are damn clumsy sometimes.
 
anyone carrieing a weapon should be fined and persistant offenders should be giving prison time

Oh yeah, real smart. Did you know that the human head can be used as an effective bludgeoning weapon. Any length of string, wire or cloth can as well.
 
Obviously they risk death. It is still immoral. It is beyond an eye for an eye. If you are a danger to the lives of others and police need to shoot that is one thing. That untrained citizens can now decide what is a crime, how serious the threat is and when to fire, is just stupid. I mean, why bother training police?

Actually in the good ole USA Police actually haven't a single power or privilaige that the average law abiding citizen doesn't have. You can arrest and ticket lawbreakers if you find them and fill out the paperwork. Hell, I once told a cop he had to fix-it ticket himself for his busted taillight. He thanked me for the warning and filled out the ticket and had me sign it. Police are just the professional version of what we all should be doing, keeping each other safe.

My anger is not limited to the anger I feel at the shooter in this case or the grand jury, I am also angry at criminals. Just because people piss me off does not mean they should die. They put my life at risk or someone else's or there is no good way to know if they are putting that life in risk, that's one thing. This was clearly a crime against property.

Well, he obviously felt threatened as well. And damn it maybe that property was essential to his neighbor's profession, comfort, or even life. The Grand Jury said he was justified, so he is. End of story.

Now average citizens without training can think: hey, I'll be a cool cop-like figure and decide when a crime is being committed and when it is right to shoot etc.

Well most people have a functioning braincell or two and wait untill they know what the hell is going on. I don't know about you, but I can tell when someone is beating the hell out of a woman. I don't know about you but i tend to tell someone to dial 911 while I reducate the ruffian a bit. Never had a cop cite me for stopping the beating, even when I busted the one guys jaw. In fact the officers once bought my next round!
 
i really dont get the US, it makes apsolutly no sence to me. you have the cop beating of a black man (cant think of the name of the guy, really famous) where the cops get off, you have deaths in custody ON VIDEO TAPE and the cops a couple of months if convicted, you have incidents like the horn case and the nut doesnt even get tried and then you have a clear cut (going by your atical) case of self defence and the guy gets convicted.

What is it with the US????????


The Rodney King case. The first trial was a travesty of justice, and was thrown out. The second time it was done properly and they were all convicted and LA had to pay Mr. King a handsome sum. .
 
even Innocence Project has a scary flip side, the fact that there are so many people convicted in the US that a system like this is NESSARY and that the court's apeals proccess cant handle it is a scary thought
 
Bells:
Where does it say that in the transcript?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/19/acd.01.html

"Move, you're dead."

Horn saw two criminals committing a felony and entering his property. He is well within his rights to place them under citizen's arrest, and shoot them if they don't comply (which they clearly didn't, as they attempted to break and run). This is confirmed by the grand jury clearing him.

The lesson here? Don't rob people in Texas. But feel free to do so in Australia, because Australians are unarmed and don't have the right to defend their property, or that of their neighbour.
 
MH, you have a right to defend YOURSELF you dont have the right to shoot someone in the back.

As i said what would have happened if it was an under cover cop? that guy would be on death row thats what
 
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Asguard:
MH, you have a right to defend YOURSELF you dont have the right to shoot someone in the back.

Well, in Texas apparently you do have the right to shoot someone in the back, in certain circumstances.

But I think what you're actually trying to say is that people 'shouldn't' have the right to shoot someone in the back. I disagree. Such a thing needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

As i said what would have happened if it was an under cover cop? that guy would be on death row thats what

Why would an undercover cop be climbing out the window along with another person, with a bag of swag over his shoulder? Why would an undercover cop run from a citizen he tells him to 'freeze', instead of showing his badge?

Asguard, I'll say this. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. From everything that's been reported, those two men were behaving like sneak thieves, so it was more than reasonable for Horn to assume that they were indeed thieves, and place them under arrest.
 
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You guys missed all the lol in the news when his neighborhood got protested by a hate group known as the New Black Panther Party who claimed that the only reason he shot the two criminal aliens was because they were black...
 
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