Steven Jones is not my 'Messiah'.
I was thinking more along the lines of Jim Jones.
Steven Jones is not my 'Messiah'.
you really cannot tell the difference between sensational headlines and text in a newspaper with zero scientific credentials, and forensic reports written by scientists?Then what's the complaint?
Is your objection really based on the fact that it was in the general journalistic literature?
Where did you come up with that figure?I think I see where you're going. I also believe that 'gravity load bearing' and 'carrying strength' are essentially the same thing (how much weight can the floor carry). I believe you're not arguing with the fact that floor 98 of the north tower (WTC 1) apparently only lost 1% of its gravity load bearing/carrying strength after the plane crash.
The outer columns can be seen sagging. Perhaps you could explain that. .. and don't say optical illusion/refraction. Photos from different angles confirm the bowing and it was greatest at the end when less fire was seen.Instead you are saying that the ensuing fires did it. Is this what you're saying? If this is the case, there is a lot of evidence that the ensuing office fires did even less damage then the plane crashes. NIST itself contributes to such evidence:
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Imagined Heat
The Report repeatedly makes claims that amazingly high fire temperatures were extant in the Towers, without any evidence. The Report itself contains evidence contradicting the claims.
Observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 ºC: east face, floor 98, inner web; east face, floor 92, inner web; and north face, floor 98, floor truss connector.
That is specifically the inner columns.Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. (p 90/140)
There were columns of twisted steel that clearly went over that temperature....The highest temperatures estimated for the samples was 250 ºC (482 ºF).
6th time. Irrelevant numbers as we don't know the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere. Was it as hot as WTC? You have been presented with tests where the temperature was comparable to WTC and the steel was up around 900CThat's consistent with the results of fire tests in uninsulated steel-framed parking garages, which showed maximum steel temperatures of 360 ºC (680 ºF).
This is a very simplistic characterisation. Are you claiming that it is impossible that it could not have been applied to the steel as sprayable fireproofing foam, or an intumescent fireproofing paint, or placed inside the box columns?No..what rules out thermite, thermate or nano-thermite is the properties of the material itself.
As you stated all three of these compounds create a pool of super heated molten iron...which will burn through steel, if it is allowed to pool on top of it and be pulled by gravity through the steel.
It doesn't work that way in a vertical position. The pool of molten iron would just run down the I-beam, like wax off a candle...spreading out and cooling off.
Can you show me proof that this is the case, or am I just to accept your word on that?They are temperatures easily reached in a large fire started with jet fuel.Headspin said:Thermite produces heat and fire and molten iron, fire produces fire and heat but does not produce molten iron. Abolhassan Asteneh did not perform tests so is not in a position to rule out thermite.
No, there is much more evidence for thermite than just that.So the only single clue for the involvement of thermite is molten iron?
We are discussing "molten" iron, you should not be lumping in "red hot" if you are seeking an honest discussion. I am only aware of unscientific brainstorming ramblings from anti-truth movement people with what seems to be a politically fascist agenda who consider any alternative regardless of plausabilty.You are aware that there are other explanations for molten or red hot iron?
He did pick up something suspicious - melted girders, and he's not the only expert to have done so.You don’t think Abolhassan Astaneh would have picked up on something suspicious considering his experience in investigating this type of thing?
No, that is simply not the case. he says "Here <the bridge>, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees (Fahrenheit). And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>.Once again, it sounds like he is referring to steel that got extremely soft. He does not make any reference to molten or liquid steel.
Then NIST do not agree with his conclusions, i am not aware that he has published any work with analysis and conclusions, so there can only be a lot of assumptions in your statement unless you want to point me to his published work.Remember that his conclusion was that the fire alone was enough to explain the girders he was looking at. If he was talking about liquid steel then why would he come to that conclusion?
So you are happy to accept that fire will twist and soften steel, but thermite which produces heat, fire and molten iron, will not twist and soften steel. this is not logical.Doesn’t thermite cut through the steel though? We are talking about the twisted steel which was softened due to the heat. Are you saying that thermite would explain that?
Beams are also twisted and bent from stresses during a collapse, but we cannot rule out the existence of a fire pre-collapse because collapse stresses can bend steel. You are saying because fire can twist and bend steel we can rule out energetic materials such as nanothermite. This is a logical fallacy.Steel beams twist in a fire, because they are heated along their whole length at various temperatures...the difference in temperatures cause different amounts of expansion of the steel...twisting it. Thermite creates a point source of heat and wouldn't do this.
I think I see where you're going. I also believe that 'gravity load bearing' and 'carrying strength' are essentially the same thing (how much weight can the floor carry). I believe you're not arguing with the fact that floor 98 of the north tower (WTC 1) apparently only lost 1% of its gravity load bearing/carrying strength after the plane crash. Instead you are saying that the ensuing fires did it. Is this what you're saying? If this is the case, there is a lot of evidence that the ensuing office fires did even less damage then the plane crashes.
http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm
At the bottom.
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So I went to the website of Corus Construction Co, and found a section in their Research area that said this about the difference in temperatures between steel and atmosphere:
"With regard to steel temperatures, these depend upon the size of the member but for typical unprotected beams and columns these would lag behind the compartment temperatures by around 100°C to 200°C."
So the tests that the conspiracy theorist cited only had atmospheric temperatures ranging around 800-900 degrees, while the Popular Mechanics article (and NIST report) mentions that pockets of the World Trade Center reached 1800 degrees. This would put the steel temperature in those locations at around 1600-1700 degrees, which is far above the 1100 degree mark that steel loses 50% of its structural integrity.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/...cardington.htm
There are a couple of tests there where the atmosphere temperature is around 1000C and the steel temperature is over 900C.
The point is that a fire that reaches 1000C can heat steel above 590C point where it reaches approx 50% strength. According to NIST it is at less than 10% around 982C.
Losing strength is not the same thing as giving way. In any case, Ryan wasn't arguing that the steel didn't lose its strength, only that it didn't melt, something that Dr. Brown, the project engineer for the construction of the twin towers, stated on 9/11 (This is stated in the following link: http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/.../meltdown.html , search for brown). So much for some of these 'experts'.
And yet I and many others do. Perhaps part of the reason is that I'd already learned of other government actions of this nature. I think the most famous one being that of JFK. I also learned a lot concerning the government's many attempts to discredit very credible information concerning the harmful radiation emitted by so called "depleted" uranium.
I've killed this 'it wasn't a conspiracy' argument many a time, but people just keep on raising it from the dead. For the umpteenth time, straight from wikipedia:
Perhaps an excerpt from an article from Kevin Ryan will further help elucidate my point...
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When Matthew Rothschild, editor of the online magazine The Progressive, wrote an article called “Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracies, Already”, we all knew he was not talking about the conspiracy theory that the US government sells us to justify the expanding 9/11 Wars.[1] To the contrary, in writing that article Mr. Rothschild was selling that same theory himself. What he actually meant was that people should not question the US government’s story of terror because credentialed experts have been found to support it. But the fact is that the experts found to support the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 are predominantly those who profit from doing so. That’s not to say that all of these people were “part of the conspiracy”. But they are, whether consciously or not, a part of the cover-up...
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http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5071
Steven Jones is not my 'Messiah'. I simply recognize good evidence when I see it (and I've seen quite a bit of his evidence by now). I also recognize that you have some relatively good debating skills and this is why we've been going at it for some time. However, I believe that the evidence in my favour is strong and it's just a matter of time before you realize this...
I agree that some in the truth movement may be a little too quick to believe that someone who disagrees with them is in on the 9/11 deception.
However, the more reasoned truthers will be cautious to come to such conclusions and can certainly backtrack on them if they find that the evidence doesn't support their conclusions. In your particular case I never suspected you to be a government disinformation agent. I can't say the same in Kenny's case, but I backtracked after further analyzing his writings.
you really cannot tell the difference between sensational headlines and text in a newspaper with zero scientific credentials, and forensic reports written by scientists?
Oh come on. 500C-800C was enough to cause the steel to soften so that a bridge collapsed. Jet fuel burns hotter than that. That bridge collapsed from the gasoline alone.Can you show me proof that this is the case, or am I just to accept your word on that?
I can probably find a document rebutting thermite for every one that you post. Anyway I'll look at those tomorrow.No, there is much more evidence for thermite than just that.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp2.pdf
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JLobdillThermiteChemistryWTC.pdf
or for a wider perspective you could look at all the articles:
http://www.journalof911studies.com
The hypocrisy... By rambling about honesty you dodged my question.We are discussing "molten" iron, you should not be lumping in "red hot" if you are seeking an honest discussion. I am only aware of unscientific brainstorming ramblings from anti-truth movement people with what seems to be a politically fascist agenda who consider any alternative regardless of plausabilty.
No he does not think it is suspicious. He was the one who investigated the steel and thinks the fire is responsible. So I will ask you again, if he was talking about molten steel why was convinced that the fire was responsible?He did pick up something suspicious - melted girders, and he's not the only expert to have done so.
No I am saying that he is not talking about molten steel.No, that is simply not the case. he says "Here <the bridge>, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees (Fahrenheit). And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>.
I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
please read the link:
http://tinyurl.com/4sq3ae
He clearly distinguishes between melting at the wtc and non-melting at the bridge.
You are making out that girders just softened and buckled at both events, that is not the case:
"there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>."
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center"
He testified at the 911 commission.Then NIST do not agree with his conclusions, i am not aware that he has published any work with analysis and conclusions,
The assumption here is on your part as, since he has been brought up, I have read many articles where he gives his opinion.so there can only be a lot of assumptions in your statement unless you want to point me to his published work.
No you are, once again, dodging the question. Thermite was brought up by the crackpot Steven Jones. His initial theory (correct me if I'm wrong) was that thermite would cut through the steel like a knife and butter. The theory was that thermite would explain the photos of steel cut on angles.So you are happy to accept that fire will twist and soften steel, but thermite which produces heat, fire and molten iron, will not twist and soften steel. this is not logical.
Not if there were other reasons for the residue which had nothing to do with explosives. Not when it is clear that fire alone can cause steel to weaken.If thermite is found in the debris, then whether beams melted, were cut, how they were cut, what devices if any, and how it was installed is pretty much irrelevent. like I said, if explosive residues are found in a destructive event we can conclude with confidence that explosives were a cause for that event, wouldn't you agree?
No you are, once again, dodging the question. Thermite was brought up by the crackpot Steven Jones. His initial theory (correct me if I'm wrong) was that thermite would cut through the steel like a knife and butter. The theory was that thermite would explain the photos of steel cut on angles.
Headspin said:he says "Here <the bridge>, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees (Fahrenheit). And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>.
I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
http://tinyurl.com/4sq3ae
He clearly distinguishes between melting at the wtc and non-melting at the bridge. You are making out that girders just softened and buckled at both events, that is not the case:
"there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>."
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center"
No I am saying that he is not talking about molten steel.
ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.
SPENCER MICHELS: But they got soft, though, didn't they?
ABOLHASSAN ASTANEH: Yes. When steel gets to 1,000 degrees, it loses its strength.
SPENCER MICHELS: Astaneh spent a lot of time attempting to make sure Caltrans didn't recycle the damaged steel, clues to the collapse.
CALTRANS EMPLOYEE: They've been cut; a lot of them have been cut.
CALTRANS EMPLOYEE: Yes, 40 foot. We cut them about in half.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
Well to be accurate - this one. Read your definitions. Melting is the process where a solid turns to liquid. Molten is the final stage. A girder that is melting is not necessarily the same as a pool of molten steel.In what reality does "melting" not mean "molten" ?
Originally Posted by scott3xI think I see where you're going. I also believe that 'gravity load bearing' and 'carrying strength' are essentially the same thing (how much weight can the floor carry). I believe you're not arguing with the fact that floor 98 of the north tower (WTC 1) apparently only lost 1% of its gravity load bearing/carrying strength after the plane crash.
Where did you come up with that figure?
"15-18 perimeter and 5-6 core columns were severed at the 95th and 96th floors.[15] A large section of the 96th floor slab, 40 ft wide and 80 ft in depth, was destroyed upon impact.[15] Insulation was knocked off nearly all the core columns and 40 foot portion of the floor trusses on the south side of the tower.[15] Twelve perimeter columns were severed on the 97th floor.[16] In all, 35 perimeter and six core columns were severed.[16] Fireproofing insulation was stripped off of 43 out of 47 core columns, as well as floor trusses covering 60,000 ft2 of area.[17]"
http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/World_Trade_Center
There is no distinction here that makes a difference. The evidence of "molten steel" (or "melted steel" if you prefer) is important because it gives us a temperature that the steel underwent. whether there is a pool of molten steel, or a melted end, or a middle section of the steel that melted all means the same thing - the steel was heated to its melting temperature. In order to melt in a fire, its environment temperature has to be above its melting temperature. no molten steel or iron should have existed at the wtc event because the temperature of an office fire does not exceed the melting temperature of steel, yet tons of molten iron was found.Well to be accurate - this one. Read your definitions. Melting is the process where a solid turns to liquid. Molten is the final stage. A girder that is melting is not necessarily the same as a pool of molten steel
he has offered a hypothesis (not a proof) and says it "might explain", this doesn't mean he is "convinced" as you put it. in fact he actually sounds unconvinced by his own hypothesis.So perhaps you could answer my question. If he saw evidence of molten steel why does he think the fire alone is responsible?
Headspin said:He did pick up something suspicious - melted girders, and he's not the only expert to have done so.
No, that is simply not the case. he says "Here <the bridge>, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees (Fahrenheit). And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders, because there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>.
I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
please read the link:
http://tinyurl.com/4sq3ae
He clearly distinguishes between melting at the wtc and non-melting at the bridge.
You are making out that girders just softened and buckled at both events, that is not the case:
"there was no melting of girders <at the bridge>."
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center"
So you are happy to accept that fire will twist and soften steel, but thermite which produces heat, fire and molten iron, will not twist and soften steel. this is not logical.
If thermite is found in the debris, then whether beams melted, were cut, how they were cut, what devices if any, and how it was installed is pretty much irrelevent.
You are saying because fire can twist and bend steel we can rule out energetic materials such as nanothermite. This is a logical fallacy.
as I said before- if explosives are forensically found, then we can deduce explosives were used, do you agree?