Neddy Bate
Valued Senior Member
Attention Mods:
The Wall Street thing should be in a seperate thread. It has nothing to do with the topic. I apologize.
9/11 Conspiracy Thread (There can be only one!)
- Thread starter Stryder
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Attention Mods:
The Wall Street thing should be in a seperate thread. It has nothing to do with the topic. I apologize.
The conspiracy theorists, or fake 911-truthers, keep bringing them up.
Sorry, but this is wrong. The real 911-truthers do not put stock in any of those far-fetched theories. They are only looking for truth, in any form. Why are you still talking about these absurd claims, when they are obviously meant to derail any progress in this otherwise semi-civilized discussion?
So if the fighter jets had scrambled earlier, what would they have done? Shot the planes down? Rammed them in to the ground?
I have read conflicting reports as to whether they were mossad agents and there is no evidence to support that they were set up before the attack. Thousands were documenting the event that day.
In the year prior to 9/11, 67 scrambles were made by fighter jets. But none of these took place within US territory. Of the 67 scrambles, only a fraction resulted in intercepts. In the decade prior to 9/11 there was only one domestic intercept which took 76 minutes.
On 9/11 there was some confusion about what aircraft was hijacked and from the first signs of hijacking and the time of the last crash (Flight 77) was a gap of a mere 43 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjBbqRJT7Q
Confirmed? I don't even think reports of "dancing jews" was even confirmed in the first place, was it?
By all means, keep it coming. I'm willing to be convinced. It would certainly benefit me politically if a conspiracy could be proven.
Sorry, but this is wrong. The real 911-truthers do not put stock in any of those far-fetched theories. They are only looking for truth, in any form.
Then you should have a chat with the fake Troofers, who seem to dominate your movement. It is hardly my error to cite them as representative of "9/11 Troof" overall if they occur in such vast proportions as to so convince me.
Er, because the claims are still being made. Are you combatting these absurd claims within the movement then? That would be very helpful in keeping the discussion semi-civilized.
Describe it. Then I shall fathom.
The entire issue is shrouded in preconception and misconception, frankly. I suggest the following link to start:
http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html
Essentially, it's premature conclusion. Not uncommon in elderly reporters.
Aha! I am a Mossad/CIA/Lizardoid agent. I see. Clearly I know not who I am.
Or do I? Anyway, good thing you caught me. I might have eaten your brain or something.
Bring them! They shall be as soft as molten steel on a San Diego bridge to me, and as apparent as hundred of tons of wreckage on a lawn outside a crash site.
Neddy Bate
Valued Senior Member
Good try, but the correct answer is: The delay in scramble/intercept was the result of two things:
- Military war games going on that very same morning. Including a scenario in which a hijacked plane would be used as a weapon against a building. (Please disregard Condy Rice's statement soon therafter, "I dont think anyone could have imagined using airplanes to ...")
- New rules of engagement that required the vice president to approve all counter-manoeuvers ahead of time. Yes, civilians were in charge of these things that morn, rather than military, as it would normally be.
I am glad that you will benefit somehow (politically?) by discovering these things. I don't benefit from this at all. Actually, it brings be me great pain to even discuss this. It is all so incredibly horrible.
Even though I've given you the facts telling you how rare domestic intercepts were prior to 9/11 means nothing? The fact that given the sheer amount of planes in the air and mass confusion about which planes were hijacked and which were not means nothing? The fact that fighter jets had very little time and very little information to go on means nothing? The fact that nothing like this had ever happened in America means nothing?
It sounds to me that you could be talking about the drills for a plane accident at the Pentagon, which was not based on a hijacked plane, but an accidental crash. Bearing in mind the fact the Pentagon was about a mile from Reagan International Airport and in the flight path of one of the runways, it seems sensible to drill for such an accident.
But since that took place a year before, and not on the very same morning you must be talking of something else, or lying.
That appears irrelevant since rules of engagement describes the force that should be used once an aircraft has been intercepted. Since none of the hijacked aircraft were itercepted, why would rules of engagement have hampered anything? And you make it sound like these "new" rules were put in force on the morning of 9/11. How new were they?
Oh, pull the other one!
Nothing pisses me off more than truthers pretending to care about the victims of 9/11. If you care one bit about the victims of 9/11, then please stop trying to re-write their history.
Neddy Bate
Valued Senior Member
All very well, and quite right. I agree that it does take a long time to scramble jets, no question. But you replied to my original question without mentioning the war games that were in operation that day. No fault of your own, perhaps. These war excercises occur periodically (in order to ensure that, should a real emergency occur, the military apparatus will be ready, practiced, and efficient. So that, you know, things like 911 do not occur.
No, I have no use for lying. If I am incorrect in my opinions, then I welcome sincere criticism & correction from all learned people, such as yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_games_in_progress_on_September_11,_2001
Excerpt:
"Aside from military exercises, a National Reconnaissance Office drill was being conducted on September 11, 2001. In a simulated event, a small aircraft would crash into one of the towers of the agency's headquarters after experiencing a mechanical failure"
/excerpt
But really, what does it matter if they were running multiple simulations that day? At least they got some jets up within the hour, right?
No, you pull mine first. Don't get pissed off at me. Remember, (or perhaps you don't) that it was the victims' families who pressed for a real investigation when everything was being stonewalled at the highest levels. Do you ever wonder who is writing this 'history' of which you speak?
Good point.
"Money Makes the world go round" - Cabaret
Quite simply if you found that your family was lost do to an incident, then you are going to raise questions, not just questions directly related to the perpetrators, but also at those that you pay through taxation to protect yourself and your family. Did they know the threat?, why couldn't they stop it? etc
These are naturally questions people have, however the main point is people want "pay" in some form for what happen to themselves and their families. Going to war with a foreign country is obviously not enough, people want "money". You can't get money out of terrorists, however if you can imply your governments involved, then obviously there is money to be made and this is the angle that some take.
A "Real" investigation that you suggest existed to me just sounds like a bunch of people trying to sue a bunch of other people, in fact this is probably where all these bullshit conspiracies started.
We can all speculate as to motivations. I think, however, that it would be better to simply look at the evidence.
And when that fails, what next?
When that fails, we get speculation without supporting evidence, which is what some here tend to rely on.
I don't understand whether or not you are trying to make something sinister out of the coincidence that this drill was being tested on the day of 9/11, or that the drill should have meant that we should have been able to intercept all hijacked aircraft that morning.
I don't see how it is related to the terrorist attacks in either case.
I'm unclear on how these simulations had anything to do with 9/11. Was there a drill on dealing with multiple domestic hijacked aircraft with the intent of suiciding into buildings? That would be more relevant to this discussion; not buildings simulating accidental crashes from local airports.
Was this for reasons that they suspected 9/11 was an inside job and that the towers were demolished, etc etc?
Neddy Bate
Valued Senior Member
It's strange that both sides of this discussion cannot even agree to what the evidence is, much less what the evidence means.
Perhaps we should start by just listing the evidence that we all agree on, and then, from there, we would be free to venture off to hypothesise on what the implications are of this evidence.
For example, the dancing Israelis. I brought them up earlier in the thread, and then I was immediately challenged as to whether or not they even existed. Well it slows the discussion down quite a bit...
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html?q=fiveisraelis.html
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a846israelishighfive#a846israelishighfive
Anyway, in the end, these assholes were sent back to Israel, and the investigation became "classified", and no one heard anything else about them. Until they appeared on a talk show in Israel where they explained that, "their purpose was to document the event". Sounds suspicious to me, but I'll let you come to your own conclusions.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/9-11_israelis.wmv
So what does this mean? Allow me to hypothesise:
There is no reason for Israelis to hate the US, which is probably one their biggest allies, so why were they so happy about the attack? They were obviously smart enough to know that the US would interpret this 'suicide mission' as something done by Radical Islamists. This means that the US military response would soon be raining Shock and Awe down upon Israel's enemies. Why else would they be so happy? Think about it.
So what? We cannot blame these douchbags for wanting to see the US attack their enemies. However, one clue leads to the next like a trail of bread crumbs. If these guys are smart enough to know that war was coming to the Middle East, then how stupid did the Islamists attackers have to be to not realize this fact? Would they really be willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of their Muslim brothers and sisters to death by an invasion of Infidels, just for the satisfaction of killing a few thousand innocent US citizens?
Context?
It sure would be suspicious if their purpose was to document the attacks before the attacks took place. If their purpose was to document the attacks after the attacks happened then that's not so suspicious seeing as thousands of others did the same.
Even if they were happy, what does that prove?
In fact the first person to tell me about the 9/11 attacks was a waitress; I was stuck at work in the kitchen and she came in with a smile on her face almost laughing (in a shocked kind of way) telling me that planes hit the Pentagon and that the WTC collapsed. When I got home and spoke with some of my friends, the general consensus was that the event was "exciting". These people were not even there to witness it in person, but still managed to get some sort of a thrill out of the experience.
I'm just posing the question that perhaps these guys did show signs of being being excited in some sort of perverted way. I witnessed the same thing by people around me on 9/11. Not being native to the New York area (or even the country) meant they wouldn't necessarily have had the same emotional reaction as those around them.
B
BlueMoose
Guest
Lets rewrite history, what if like the security works like that much that only one plane got hijacked and flied to WTC under Dicks watch. Firemans comes to rescue, one hundred dead and little damage to one building. Whats would happen next ?
Full scale bombing to Afghanistan and then later in Iraq ? Patriot Act approved without reading it ? And so on ? Something to chew about motives. Bye !
Full scale bombing to Afghanistan and then later in Iraq ? Patriot Act approved without reading it ? And so on ? Something to chew about motives. Bye !
Neddy Bate
Valued Senior Member
There is nothing strange about 911 witnesses in NY or NJ stopping whatever they were doing, and starting to take pictures or videos. The linked articles seem to be saying that that these Israeli guys were already set up when the first plane hit, but I guess we'll never know since the information became "classified" when we sent them back to Israel. Also, these guys later turned out to be part of a mossad surveillance mission, so saying that "their purpose was to document the event" might mean more than just "I saw this thing happen, so I decided to take a video of it".
This wasn't that kind of "happy". They were literally celebrating, high-fiving, and dancing. Did your waitress do anything like that?
Anyway, I still think they were pretty smart to realize that the US would soon be attacking their enemies. Too bad the Islamist attackers didn't think that far ahead.
I think BlueMoose is saying that if the 911 attack had failed (or at least not been so successful,) then the US would never have been able to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, pass the Patriot Act without even reading it, etc. And that it does make you wonder who had the greatest motive.
It is a good point. My point above was that smart Islamists should not have had very much motive to provoke the US into wars with their own countries. Unless their motive was to bankrupt the US and turn it into a surveillance state, in which case they seem to be succeeding.
It could not possible had failed. The buildings were loaded up with bombs AND thermite AND they were flew planes into them.
The goverment had a missile to fire at the pentagon. IF that failed they always had the original plane hidden away somewhere as a backup, and flight 93.
Where's the sacarasm smiley again oh here it is
(Not necessarliy directed at you Neddy)
...when you don't bother to read my links.
Because - if there were any celebrating - now their major ally is going to be forced to get serious about terrorism.
Which, on the evidence, it was.
I agree; regrettable and cold-hearted, but not conspiratorial.
Uh, how stupid are any of them then? Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah do this sort of thing every day.
In a word: yes.
Hamas and Hezbollah set up mortar and rocket teams beside UN outposts, residential buildings in Lebanon and Palestine, and behind schools.
Bombs are strapped to women, kids, and anything else crossing into Jerusalem.
Hamas openly admits it likes to use human shields.
Why is 9/11 so surprising?
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