7 Baha'is sentenced to 20 years in Iran
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
So lets see...its illegal to practise the Bahai faith in Iran and those who practise it are imprisoned.
Thats usually how it goes.
If any cult/religious/political etc group is banned and they continue to practice, they are imprisoned. This happens in all countries including India and China.
The French and Germans want to ban Scientology
Scientology Trial in France: Can a Religion Be Banned?
What are you objecting to specifically?
Thats usually how it goes.
If any cult/religious/political etc group is banned and they continue to practice, they are imprisoned. This happens in all countries including India and China.
The French and Germans want to ban Scientology
Scientology Trial in France: Can a Religion Be Banned?
What are you objecting to specifically?
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Just because religious bigotry is "legal" in Iran doesn't mean we living in the modern world have to tolerate it socially. Hell, only a few decades ago SLAVERY was legal in most many countries. But, with pressure from the Americans and Europeans, those countries made slavery illegal. This is one of those situations.
Surely you're not making the argument FOR banning the Bahai faith? So, you don't think non-Iranians should comment on what goes on in Iran? I suppose when China is calling the shots - they'll take this line of reasoning a long long LONG way.
But, that's not the way we Americans roll babe
Surely you're not making the argument FOR banning the Bahai faith? So, you don't think non-Iranians should comment on what goes on in Iran? I suppose when China is calling the shots - they'll take this line of reasoning a long long LONG way.
But, that's not the way we Americans roll babe
I was showing the pattern.
Kind of like this one: Weak resource rich countries get invaded by larger militarily superior ones. Shouldn't me make comments on this sort of stuff?
Just because religious bigotry is "legal" in Iran doesn't mean we living in the modern world have to tolerate it socially. Hell, only a few decades ago SLAVERY was legal in most many countries. But, with pressure from the Americans and Europeans, those countries made slavery illegal. This is one of those situations.
Surely you're not making the argument FOR banning the Bahai faith? So, you don't think non-Iranians should comment on what goes on in Iran? I suppose when China is calling the shots - they'll take this line of reasoning a long long LONG way.
But, that's not the way we Americans roll babe
China has banned the Falun Gong for much longer than Iran has banned the Bahais. And the tales of torture of the Falun Gong are much more horrific and widespread. However, "religious" bigotry of this kind is pretty universal, e.g. the Australian ban of alcohol and porn on aboriginal land to aid in self determination, the French ban on the burka, the Swiss ban on minarets.
Its flattering of course, that non-Iranians have such high expectations of Iranians that they are shocked, [shocked I tell you] at the fact that there are laws which discriminate against religious minorities in Iran.
It can only help those religious minorities to er, get "liberated"
SAM,
haha... you're arguing FOR the 20 year imprisonment of a couple old men and some women? Threats against the Republic I tells you!
It is THAT time of the month isn't?
Anyway, I'm making a social commentary. It's no different than you commenting on the USA invading Iraq. I mean, from a certain POV we have every God-given right to be there.
That aside, the Chinese treatment of Falun Gong is pathetic. All Chinese I know agree.
haha... you're arguing FOR the 20 year imprisonment of a couple old men and some women? Threats against the Republic I tells you!
It is THAT time of the month isn't?
Anyway, I'm making a social commentary. It's no different than you commenting on the USA invading Iraq. I mean, from a certain POV we have every God-given right to be there.
That aside, the Chinese treatment of Falun Gong is pathetic. All Chinese I know agree.
Funny that someone who has spent so much time devoted to complaining about what Israel does in its spare time would say "So what?" about persecution of a minority in Iran.
I'm sure there must be some logic behind it.
I'm sure there must be some logic behind it.
Human rights violations are not allowed to be discussed unless the nation or geography is right?
Anywho, this probably belongs in World Events, since it has more to do with politics than religion.
Anywho, this probably belongs in World Events, since it has more to do with politics than religion.
SAM,
haha... you're arguing FOR the 20 year imprisonment of a couple old men and some women? Threats against the Republic I tells you!
It is THAT time of the month isn't?
Anyway, I'm making a social commentary. It's no different than you commenting on the USA invading Iraq. I mean, from a certain POV we have every God-given right to be there.
That aside, the Chinese treatment of Falun Gong is pathetic. All Chinese I know agree.
I generally comment on US policy in response to some BS like this thread where the actions of some government figure in Iran are related to the religion of 1.5 billion people. And I usually do it to point out how representative actions are in the US as compared to similar actions in Iran or China.
I don't think those 7 people should be in prison, but beating war drums so Americans can feel good about sending long distance drones to destroy the lives of 70 million Iranians is not my cup of tea either.
Lets just say that when the US has pals like Saudi Arabia [whats the current position of minority rights there btw] and Israel, in the era of indefinite detention under torture without due process in the United States, any thread about minority rights in Iran from an American is suspect - especially one who uses it to explore his bigotry against Muslims. Three threads in the space of a week on rights in Iran? This is reminiscent of Iraq before the preemptive strike. Tell me, are the minorities in Iraq better off now?
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superstring01
Moderator
Do they? Are they now closer to a secessionist state than they were before? The Kurds are like the Jharkand Mukti Morcha in India, or the Kashmiris. As long as someone is playing one side against the other, there will always be a civil war. Americans are familiar with the concept, they have secessionists of their own. Left to themselves, Iranians would live with the Bahai as they have done for decades. With undercurrents of western intervention and suspicions of collaborators, especially under the current wave of sanctions and with the covert aid given to these groups by western governments, its hardly surprising that there will be a crackdown.
Is that what he is engaged in? It has occurred to me you two have a long-standing rivalry, so I was thinking perhaps that was the reason for the odd diversion. Carry on...
Partially agreed on the American part. I guess that depends on what "an American" means.
There have been times on sciforums where someone has said something like "The problem with you Americans is..." and for someone like me who is very independent minded and very critical of corruption in my own country, it's a little irksome to be lumped into a general category simply because I live here.
I think anyone, regardless of nationality, can criticize another country for human rights abuses as long as they aren't ignoring something in their own country. Or stereotyping an entire nation or people or religion.
In other news... Saudi Arabia and Israel.. an odd couple???
Didn't the Saudis recently okay their airspace for Israel to strike Iran? Are the Saudis looking for a piece of the oil action? Are they religiously (sect-wise) motivated as well? Fearful of something? I'm kind of clueless as to what is driving some of these players.It does seem that way. The bar is being raised incrementally, it seems. Conditions get more narrow, until conditions cannot be met reasonably. And then...
Supposedly. I really have no clue.
Thats because its ridiculously obvious. Money, of course.
What I am interested in here, is what makes the Bahai so important to Michael? Personally I know only one Bahai so I am not well versed with them, however I know several Iranians and the way they are caricatured by Americans is shameful.
My objection to Michaels post is this:
This is the guy who supported the War on Terror. A true representative of the American Way. The liberal progressive who believes in the military solution to political problems.
And hes worried because 7 people were sent to prison for breaking the law in their own country?
Especially considering this full page ad in the NYT
Who do you think the "foreign oil" is that the Israel lobby is referring to?
And since this is the religion forum, is it of any interest that all the groups mentioned in the ad above are Jewish groups? :m:
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Thats because this thread is not about the persecution of the Bahai. Its actually about religion in general, Islam in particular and Islam in Iran, in no particular order.
Michael has a history here. He supported the war against Afghanistan. He posts against Islam and Muslims. He is not fighting for the Bahai, he is using them as an opportunity to post against Muslims.
I don't "complain" about Israel. I post about power politics. Israel just happens to head the shit list at the moment. But I've done lots of other groups in the past [native Americans, Inuit, Aborigines, Maori, colonial oppression, caste politics]. My posts are about equal rights not anti-religion or anti-ethnic group.
I think Michael is just pointing out what happens when there is no separation between church and state. The Scientology thing isn't about beliefs, it's about fraud, it about demanding money from their followers.
And where there is separation of state and church? Like China? Like the US? Like France? The Holocaust occured in one of the most scientifically advanced, least religious state of the time. The fact that the seven Bahai were sent to prison rather than starved to death like the Falun Gong in China or the Jews in Germany should make it clear how totally baseless that argument is. At least you can appeal a prison sentence and human rights workers in Iran will continue to fight on their behalf. That kind of relief will never be available to those who are tortured and killed by other states.
I'm supposed to be happy that they are being persecuted through a legal system? Not sure what state with freedom of religion and separation of church and state ever tortured and killed people for their beliefs.
superstring01
Moderator
That has nothing to do with it and you're making connections without substantiating that one bit. Iran has a LONG history of political and religious oppression that long predates its bad relations with the west. While Jews and Christians had been largely tolerated (with significant exceptions), no such luck ever existed for atheists and the Baha'i. Since Bahá'u'lláh began his work well after the Islam (unlike Judaism and Christianity) there is no Islamic history--or need--of tolerance.
~String
China for instance. They have no official religion in their state. Its completely separate. They have no religious freedom either, but that is a general drawback of all state atheism.
No one is supposed to be happy that the Bahai religion is banned in Iran. But currently freedom of expression is all about not permitting other people to freely express their religion.
superstring said:
Compared to which state? Who has a better record than Iran?
China has only limited religion freedom, so your example doesn't work. I'm just as much against China. I'm in favor of secularism, not state atheism. Try again? Trying to avoid the simple fact that state Islam is bad for anyone that isn't Islamic (and even bad for people of fringe Islamic sects).