4 legged ducks, 6 legged pigs.. a question.
- Thread starter SnakeLord
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It doesn't work that way. People aren't that ignorant, if I happen to get into a position of explaining to one why pigs grow legs in weird places on very rare occasions, then I would simply say that the pig was not a normal pig, so that he at least nows that, I guess there is no need to talk about God in that context, as I don't believe it to be meaningful.
I wouldn't say that he should dismiss science. Perhaps I could explain to him about genes etc. I'm not that troubled you see.
If I were to sacrifice a animal to God I would also try to find the best specimen. Whether or not God has any say in this is your oppinion.
You are used to by science to get ready answers I guess...that isn't possible with everything you know. However the Bible has a foundation of answers, even though they can't be scientifically proven.
Some wisdom and some knowledge have to be earned, if you really honestly wanted to know, you would learn. You know the science of it.
You would ask me what I would tell a person that don't care, being ignorant of both science and religion. Well, I'm not sure I could tell such a person. I'm furthermore not certain that such a person even exists.
My personal oppinion about pigs with defections, in respect to my belief in God is that those were allowed to become crippled. What happens to animals isn't of much concern to me and things have to have a natural succession.
There is health in every living thing on earth, yet not all are healthy. When God made us we had yet to have eaten from the fruit of knowledge. If we had eaten from the fruit of life as well then we would have become gods. God saw that it was good that we came into being, it is not for certain that we were all-good like God, but it was good that we came into being. If God created us with love in mind, then He could have allowed us if we lived in a equally imperfect world, at least after we took the fruit, cause we might have had the chance to be perfect with God otherwise. But this is all mine interpretation. I probably wouldn't give my interpretation of everything to someone ignorant, but rather encourage him to find out himself, and also encourage him to be respectful with the truth of things.
Sure, but your disbelief is well established and I'm preparing for confrontation, if not so we could discuss this in a more friendly manner.
Perhaps they wanted to irritate you. Atheists can be irritating also sometimes (which is why we have disclaimers and repeated statements of "this is what I believe").
I feel I'm in a position to say that a pig with legs in dark places are imperfect. From my perspective it is so, so that is my position of which I speak.
Well, I don't think that science and religion are necessary opponents. There is a nature of things in religion too, and the developement of the pig were just following the nature of things. Too bad for the pig but that was his number.
Well, I normally don't think about these things (weird pigs that is), but the answer sort of is there when I need it, and it's probably a cause of my belief in these things, so you that doesn't have the belief, doesn't have a organised solution to these kinds of problems, in respect to the belief in God. You weren't expected to either I guess. But what I tell you is my belief, I can't go around and say that it is everybodies belief, cause everybody is different, but it's enough for me that I have this sense of truth within me that are allways in advantage of my understanding of things, and hasn't failed me other than my understanding have failed me, or my ability to express the truth I feel.
I haven't got time to re-check this post, as it is getting late, so I'm sorry for eventual mistakes done that may confuse you.
Not to deceive, but to teach those that belongs to him. Everyone has the scripture in their heart.
Sorry pal, the scriptures are not in my heart, they are in my analytical mind!
The Pharisees debunk Jesus pertaining three crucial parts of his “doctrines", provided this concept is not a little bit pompous with regard to him. They successfully compelled Jesus to admit that those flatteries towards the riffraff worshiping him as the god, e.g., "salt of the earth" (Mt 5:13) "light of the world" (Mt 5:14), "city that is on the mountain” (ibidem), indeed is nothing but the scum of the earth (Jesus: “Sick ones that are in need of a physician” <Lu 5:31>). In all other contexts, this riffraff of the “sick ones” that is in need of a physician is passed off as the indeed "healthy" ones and those that were called the healthy to the Pharisees (those who do not worship Jesus as the god) are called the sick ones that have to go to everlasting hell. Hark, hark: The loser (“Jesus "Christ" ”) had to admit to the Pharisees that those, who worship him as “god”, “Messiah” or “god’s” son are “sick ones needing a physician” (Lu 5:31). Get the rest here: http://www.bare-jesus.net/e103.htm
wildernessjoe
Registered Member
Every one has a god
your just isn't mine
for the record I'll keep mine
and you are surly welcome to
yours
BUT there is a GOD
wildernessDoug
your just isn't mine
for the record I'll keep mine
and you are surly welcome to
yours
BUT there is a GOD
wildernessDoug
It's a hypothetical - a 'what if'. If Spiderman and The Thing had a fight who would win? No, spiderman isn't real.. it's a hypothetical situation. So, once again, how would you, a theist, explain the instances I have mentioned to someone ignorant of both science and religion?
The man would be able to recognise that the pig was "not normal" thus comes the need for explanation. "Yo, why has that pig got legs growing out of it's ass?" What explanation would a theist give?
I see. So instead we accept and adopt science because it actually provides the answers that theism can't provide?
The reason for your last small statement is a mystery, but you seem to be misunderstanding what I am asking for.
I have always found the concept quite utterly stupid. If everyone adopts that policy and then goes around sacrificing the best genetically, all you're left with are the genetically inferior to breed further genetically inferior specimens. I can't personally see a need for a god to eat beef, and thus would consider it more pertinent to sacrifice the defected to remove them from the gene pool.
What I am or am not used to is of no relevence to anything. My question is how would a theist explain these occurrences from a god exists perspective; "why would god create pigs with legs growing out of their bums"?As you have since explained, you'd give him the scientific answer.
I fail to see the value of your above statement with concerns to this thread. I am asking a question, a hypothetical for the mind of a theist. Nothing more.
That's an answer.
That too is an answer. See, not that hard really. Might I now ask why they were allowed to become crippled?
Why isn't it of much concern to you?
You can discuss it any way you want to, but you should leave my disbelief at the door because it isn't a factor. It's a simple, (or not so simple), question. Answer it, don't answer it, waffle on about my disbelief and confrontational attitude.. whatever you prefer.
Perhaps they did, it isn't relevant. Neither is the statement concerning atheists. I just explained to you, (given that you pointed it out), why I included the "from an if god exists perspective".
It is your, (not specifically you), perspective that I am asking for. If I didn't ask I wouldn't have got to hear your perspective and then there would have been no point making this thread. Savvy?
I don't want my own answer, I wanted other peoples answers, (which is why I made a post. It is unlikely I was making a post just to ask myself a question).
Now, how would a theist explain to a man ignorant of religion/science why these pigs are imperfect, (more so than pigs without legs growing out of their rectums)?
And it was that answer I was looking for.
I'll accept that for now. So, I gave you an A and B from my unorganised perspective. What's your organised C?
No shit.
If I got the question phrased like you phrased it, I wouldn't be able to go in deep about any scientific reasons, nor religious, as it really DOES matter HOW you ask, and not only WHAT you ask, the same from HOW you explain things, and not necessarily WHAT you explain it by.
But if it was phrased in a way that gave me any hope of communication with that ignorant man of both science and religion, and it was up to me to give only a religious answer, the best I could, would be (now postexperianced by my later answers in this post) that it could be a reason for the crippled pig that isn't seen with the naked eye, it is of course unfortunate that the pig had the legs placed in that particular place, and that would make it harder for me to explain since he probably would be more concerned with that particular placement than the reasons for the imperfection itself. However, with patience I might be able to get him to focus on the problem at hand, and thus probably loose his interest in the subject, but if I would be really stubborn and determined to give some kind of understanding of the subject I would explain (and this is of course a bad start for telling him about the concept of God) that first of all it probably it has no reason at all, that these things just happen naturally because the "material" that made the pig grow was defected in some way, but that if it had reason it would probably be so hard to tell that we couldn't understand it (either because it is too individual for the pig, or that it would be to complex in the overall scheme of things), but if we could understand it we probably would have heard about the pig in the news and that it had started some kind of debate dealing with what caused the defection, perhaps we should stop polluting the water in that area? Or maybe the site had nuclear waste and was radiating so that it had to be cleaned? Or maybe it had a reason so that we can understand more of how the world works? If it had such kind of reason, there is a possibility that it was something influenced by a greater force, that binds reason for us in the world. If that greater force is what you might have heard of as God, or is a force beneath him, I don't know.
Perhaps I would explain it something like that...
Science is just what we know, not the reasons behind, so if we can't understand the reasons behind then we will have to wait until we do understand, and even if we do understand, the reasons for that particular pig might be so individual that it would be impossible to understand it generally why these things occur.
We wouldn't sacrifice animals for that purpouse, the overall effect of sacrificing animals aren't that great to the animal world. I think we eating them has a greater effect, and we are still not left with only inferior animals, as the animal kingdom is much richer than you have aknowledged to me.
I probably would, it just hasn't got much implications from a religious perspective, making it, from my point of perspective, religiously irrelevant.
Because the world is flawed from our perspective, as things happen that affects us all, animal as human, good as evil, the rain falls on all. Accidents happen to us, and we relate to it in a certain way. As well for us, as for animals, accidents occur that is a result of the "natural flow" of the world. That these things happen, and the way they happen are all with a purpouse of some kind though, that may be individual depending perhaps on the way they deal with it. That this happens to animals that doesn't have (from what it looks like) our kind of pondering thoughts is no riddle to me, but rather just a confirmation that there is set a system in the world to rule over the world equally amongst us.
Though there is this natural order or system or whatever you like to call it, there is also other forces that have the ability to influence this order, perhaps evolution can be seen as such a "force" (if we see it through a slightly bended analogy) that has found a way to put this natural order into a specific direction to a specific species. There is imaginable many other forces that are less visible that can influence this order with great precision into even our very lives and the way things fall out.
The world has every possibility, one does not allways rule out the other, that one is king in one country, doesn't stop another one from being king in another country. With this I want to say that, even though natural order exists as a reality in this world, there is possibility for other forces not only to influence that order, but probably also replace it completly. This is of course about possibilities, and are (as I've said in earlier posts) because I want you to see that there are ways of seeing things that are reasonable in other views than ones own. Perhaps explaining that would be my approach to the ignorant of both science and religion, that things happen that seems to be of no reason, but yet the fact that you know that it has happened gives rise to a reason itself. If you talk about a specific pig that is not known to anyone (perhaps not even known to other pigs) that has a disorder, then the reason is far more specific even from a religious perspective, far more that is, far more specific to judge from a general example.
Well, right now it is of concern to me, since we are discussing it. But earlier I haven't given it much thought. I remember that I have thought about it some, but not to the degree that I have taken any time to really ponder it.
Well, I could ignore you as a person for what you are asking, but then it would be harder for me to understand the question and what your concern is with that question.
Sure...I was just chatting...
Oki.
Indeed.
With the science part I would explain that the pig did not develop as it should have. This the man ignorant of science would understand as he must have developed too.
With the religion part there really is no need for an answer as I see it. You trip, you fall, you hurt. It is a part of natural consequences, that if influenced by God in any way, probably has a very individual purpouse.
Well, right now my organised C, is that it probably just doesn't has any purpouse, this as a result of the failure for the other pigs to emotionally relate to the defected pig in a meaningful manner. However, if the other pigs were to emotionally relate to the defected pig, then there might be some purpouse to it. However number two, is that the pig might have internal purpouses that are not related to the emotions of that pig or the other pig which I can't have a clue on how to approach with a definite answer.
My organised C is in any case also that it is probably irrelevant to us humans, this as a consequence of it being a anonymous pig. If the pig was not anonym to us humans, then it might have a greater purpouse, which may deal with politics, radiation, environment, animal rights, pollution, news, etc. that in itself affects us in various ways, perhaps even down to a religious level (like this thread, as a perfectly fitting example).
Therein can also a explanation be found to the religiously and scientificly ignorant.
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I looked at that, tell me, who is more important, the servant or the one he serves?
Jesus came to serve, to save us, because we are that important.
He was the doctor, and the sinners are the sick. So he "dwelled" with the sick, so as to help them and make them repent.
Can you explain to me how the "sick ones" (the sinners) are passed off as the indeed "healthy" ones?
I don't even see any argument, I just see bad temper and anger in the page you reffered to, perhaps I'm just not that involved in the "problem" at hand, as I just don't seem to find any problem, and I find pretty natural solutions to the passages they had as examples. Or do you just have a need to look at things the wrong way?
Neither is more important, the servant needs those whom he serves, this is the way he/she makes a living. The other just needs to be served, cause he/she provides that job to the servant. One and the same they both benefit mutually the one who is served, and the one who is the servant.
If he existed that is, however, like I mentioned he was a deceiver.
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/genealogy-toledot.htm
Paul: Jesus "Christ" the „man of sin“ and „son of perdition“
http://www.bare-jesus.net/e602.htm
He was no doctor, he was illiterate a delusional mad man portraying himself as a prophet.
Enter another deluded deceiver Saul/Paul, and portrays Jesus as the "son of god"
http://mwillett.org/atheism/Jesus-the-Nazarene.htm
But hey Cipe, believe what ever you like, just don't expect any atheist to buy your buybull version of Jesus!
Sure, a man finds himself in his work. However, the one that is served is more important, it is whom the servant looks after and serves. From the servants view the ones that he serves are more important.
I didn't talk about what they need by the way. Sure they are mutual in the interactions, but the one that serves has taken a role of the less important by the actions he does. He is there for YOU, he is there to serve you, not himself. Otherwise he is out of his role and thus the rank of his actions out of his role are that of the role he is currently in.
Toledot? Who wrote it? When was it written?
Paul never said Jesus Christ was that, he said that there will come a man in the last days that is the man of sin and son of perdition, and we call him the antichrist. Wherever did you get the idea that it would be Jesus??
It's probably true that the people of that time thought it wouldn't be the actual son of God but only one chosen by Him, however could that be expected of them?
Well, your version just doesn't make much sense to me, but I guess you too are free to believe what you like, too.
Let me be a bit honest with you:
I don't understand most of the things you posted, or perhaps I understand them as severely truthbending. However, I can tell you that the 'son of perdition' passages DO NOT reffer to Jesus. I mean, you must have some sense in you, by your own understanding, would you really think that they would even be included in the Bible if they did? Where do you get it from? It's taken from context in the most extreme manner!
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It's all about interpretation. The reason why so many sects of christianity exist is because of interpretation, the bible, when it got canonized many of it's other documents where not included. Why? Because it's a document manipulated by a committee who decided to exclude that which they didn't agree with, everything else was excluded for who knows what reason?
So basically you are relying on an old book that has been passed down from generation to generation, from one form of sect to compiling it yet again in another sacred sect's interpretation!
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
So basically you are relying on an old book that has been passed down from generation to generation, from one form of sect to compiling it yet again in another sacred sect's interpretation!
I take it you see issue with what was asked. What was it you didn't understand/like or find difficult in the question to give an adequate answer?
Well, the placement isn't altogether the issue, it's just that the pig has an extra set of legs that serve no purpose. They could be growing out of his head, butt, ears etc and it wouldn't affect the point or the question.
Science understands the reason for atavisms.
*looks at the list of extinct and endangered animals* You sure?
Right now perhaps, but just after a global flood that killed all but two and the time shortly thereafter?
That's clearly because you have no interest in learning about the world - or your god that supposedly created it.
Where did I ever imply otherwise?
You find something personally offensive with me asking why a pig would grow legs out of it's rectum?
.... and grow an extra three nipples. :bugeye:
So.. your god created atavisms so we'd have something to talk about?
I didn't like the phrasing, it gave the impression of someone that actually didn't want to know, and didn't expect an answer, but asked for ridicule (of that pig).
Exactly, but the point for the ignorant would be that it was growing out of the ass, probably, so we'd had to take away that point for it to have any relevancy scientifically or religiously.
Not reasons with intent (religious reasons that you speak of).
Yep, we eating them has a MUCH greater effect. It wasn't like every man sacrificed a animal. The sacrificing would be at special occasions.
They wouldn't sacrifice animals if there where so few of them. We throw away stones, but gold is left in the pocket.
I know enough about religion to see that it is mostly religiously irrelevant, even though it is interesting scientifically.
You didn't seem to comprehend any religious answer to the question.
No. You asked me to ignore your person, and see only the question, which is hard for me to do.
Because of natural consequences, yes. But not because it tripped, fell and hurt.
In the case you brought up this was a part of the reason (if there was with intent) as we clearly are talking about it.
That's not the reason I rely on it.
I didn't say it was "your reason" I'm explaining to you what exactly is that you rely on. Ancient documents used by various clans, each interpretations according to clans leaders are kept while others are discarded, they choose what to "rely" on as wisdom, and other clans use something else, basically it's all based on the same idea, but each chooses to interpret the way that suits them best.
I.E. Early American settlers who owned slaves used the bible as a code to maintain slaves, they thought it was their god given right to own slaves. This interpreted from passages in the bible. Also the qua'ran has rule codes of maintaining slaves, all Aramic religions have written on the value of slaves and treatment of them.
I.E. Early American settlers who owned slaves used the bible as a code to maintain slaves, they thought it was their god given right to own slaves. This interpreted from passages in the bible. Also the qua'ran has rule codes of maintaining slaves, all Aramic religions have written on the value of slaves and treatment of them.
It doesn't really matter, as long as we have the truth within us. Perhaps you could realise that at some point? How could we otherwise recognise the truth, if we don't have it allready?
However, often we are too busy to realise that, and perhaps we don't look for it often enough.
However the Bible came to us, it did, no matter the reasons behind, what is in the Bible is all around us, now and then.
Sometimes? In 50% of all births babies are born with extra nipples.
Did Hitler have the truth?
http://www.somareview.com/mostfamouschristian.cfm
How about David Koresh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh
Or Rev. Jim Jones?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
What I've realized is that most people who claim to have the "truth within" turn out to be some murderous assholes!! Perhaps you will realize someday, that you are set right up to be taken advantage by someone who you may deem as enlightened and "having the truth" with in, or perhaps you yourself will claim prophetic virtue.
Nothing more than delusional people can fall for these charlatans, and you are poised to do so as well, cause you believe that such a thing exists!
What you fail to understand is that you don't know me! Personally you can't judge me by a mere few posts, you don't know what I've experienced, nor what I do know or do not know. I was once like you, and so have many others here on this very forum, but at some point some of us grow out of religious rhetoric fantasies and truly start seeking for our own truths, and truth is most of us who have sought to think outside the circle, have noticed religious rhetoric is for the illusion of being safe, watch after, by some entity whose very existence is questionable.
The bible is a human made up manuscript and so is every damn ancient text claiming to be word of god, this is nothing more than texts written by delusional ancient people, most of their so called prophesies came via dreams or trance induced by some drugs. What is sad though is that so many people still believe in such bull shit and give up their lives, for this crap!
Was the bible a book claimed to have dropped from the heavens? Then it didn't come to us, it was written by desert nomads who where slaves. The bible is a corollary of many ancient myths is not all original written by the Hebrews, so many people claim the bible inerrant, but it's quite the opposite. And this has been shown here on this very forum time and time again, the bible is PROVEN to be full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and fallible in it's teaching of moral behavior, unless you deem stoning to death your own son for misbehaving and working on the sabbath moral! do you? Would you follow the laws according to the old testament? Today you would be in jail, for an amoral act, if you did!
The reason why is because we are further civilized and much more moral today than the days ancient texts where written, this is why your so called perfect moral bible has failed to be a moral guide, it clearly is not, according to our laws of today. You only see stoning to death in Islam till today, that goes on, these acts are considered barbaric, but yet it's also written in the bible that this is the way to take care off some who don't follow the laws of god!
And some are willing to put it back in our society today! will you stand against or with such nut psychos? Be careful of how you answer, you don't know yet who's advocating to bring back theocratic law.
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/PublicStoningNotJustForTaliban_Sugg.html
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M*W: True. The ones I've seen (and I've seen a lot of them in females) look more like a freckle or a small nevi than an actual nipple. Its location gives it away, though. I've never pointed this out to the newborn's parents, and not surprisingly, they don't ask what it is. I don't recall ever seeing more than one extra rudimentary nipple on any child.
My apologies. As you'll know, it's impossible to cater for everyones sensitivities and fragilities. I would have written it different if I was aware you were so sensitive.
Not really. As I said, be it ass or head it doesn't change the question or the nature of it. It just so happened the first picture I found had a pig with legs growing out of the bum area.. I can find one with some extra limbs growing out of a different place if you think it will change anything.
Special occasions? There were like 7 different offerings to be done at frequent times, not just special occasions. Everytime you sinned, everytime a woman was on her period etc etc.
Even if a god had ordered them to?
Be honest for a second, is it religiously irrelevant or is it something that causes major issues with religious beliefs and thus is ignored - even though it is very relevant?