25 Arguments for the Exsitence of God

For an unknown reason I've been drawing 8s in the horizontal for years...! like in this site...
http://www.meru.org/contin.html

This freaks me out...:bugeye: :eek:

That's really crazy... but what does it means...?:confused:

For me it seems that the horizontal "8" is a pattern that allows harmony and balance between the opposites, which are the main principles of the Universe, the way that the Universe "creates" energy, always transforming it... :eek: :cool: :D :eek:

Am I saying something stupid...? :eek:

...ok... what do you mean...? ;)
 
Truthseeker,

You've been saying for a long time that God is in you. This freaks you out because it strikes a chord in you. You've been trying to relate to others the feelings that it gives you and wanting to share that with others. Now you can see the meanings behind the FORMS. The Bible says that in the last days, KNOWLEDGE will increase. This stuff is knowledge in it's purest forms. Check out the rest--this is just the beginning--much more to come.;)
 
Originally posted by sonofbabylon
alternatives to the big bang which is quickly losing it's credibility because of the latest discoveries in cosmology, physics, DNA and archaeology.

DNA and archaeology have nothing to say about the Big Bang theory (please reference some sources if you feel differently) I also have a feeling that you're mistaking refinement and debate over the earliest moments of the universe as refutation of the Big Bang theory. Regardless, the Big Bang theory posits nothing about the existence or non-existence of God, so I don't see where refutation demonstrates proof of God.

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~mackie/royal_society/nzst_article/universe.htm

His basic premise is that creation involves consciousness and it is also affecting events from the now into the past and future. The simple double-slit experiments at the photonic scale and the ones at the macroscopic scale using gravitational lensing show that a conscious observation changes the results--even of light that is still lightyears away.

You're speaking of the subjectivist Cophenagen interpretation whereby observation collapses the wave function of a quantum particle in superposition. There are, however, alternative theories and problems with the subjectivist approach:

Remember the bright dots on the scintillating screen in the interference experiment and the trajectories that became visible in cloud camber. Is there any necessary reason to think that things would happen differently if we did not observe the dots or trajectories? Not at all. It is obvious that it is the interaction between scintillating crystal and the electrons and not our observation that causes these events.

WHO gave to this observer-independent and purely physical process the name position measurement? We did . The nature doesn’t care if you call it measurement or not. What happens is apparently a transition of the wave function from one state to another one in an interaction with the atoms in the scintillating crystal. So what we should just say is “Under certain OBJECTIVE circumstances the wave function seems to make an apparently indeterministic transition to another state. The question What these circumstances are is a scientifically correct question that should be investigated before giving up and introducing an obscure concept of measurement as a fundamental irreducible concept in the axioms of the theory.
http://physics-qa.com/html/kqm07.htm

Summarized the problem of the subjectivist approach is two fold:
1.It is not clear when an event should be considered as observation(man, dog, insect? Which area of brain?).

2. There is no way to test its claim i.e. one cannot conduct an experiment without observation to see if of observation plays a role or not. The claim is unfalsifiable therefore nonscientific according to Thomas Kuhn’ s citeria.

http://physics-qa.com/html/kqm07.htm
For reference, also see http://www.staff.fh-vorarlberg.ac.at/tb/tbSYNTHESE.pdf

Still the theory is indeed interesting and would necessitate conscious interaction for the universe to exist. Consciousness would also have to exist independently of physical existence since a purely physical observer is also the result of these same quantum events.

If anything, however, I find this to be at odds with the standard concept of "God". Indeed it would indicate that all observers are "God", involved daily with the creation of the universe.

Another example is the mathemetician at the Meru Foundation who is agnostic. He has discovered incredibly complex mathematical formulae embedded in the creation event as shown in the Hebrew Torah which pictures geometric structures depicting symmetry to chaos and back again.

This one is a bit off, in my opinion. In the Northern Hemisphere alone there are almost 8000 observable stars, pick any three and you have a triangle. That's 8.5301336E10 triangles. For the Star of David, taking into account 6 points, you can draw 3.6340670561780217E20 6 pointed stars. That some of these triangles and 6 pointed stars are geometrically "perfect" is not very surprising, much less suggestive of anything.

In addition, while the triangles, by definition, lie on the same plane the 6 pointed configurations definitely do not. Thus they only look like a star from a great distance away from a particular location in space. If you move in any direction except directly "away" from this configuration it's proportions will change.

Last, the stars are not fixed in position. These stars were not in the same configurations 100,000 or a couple million years ago. Poor reference points as the site you gave suggests they are.

Still another example is archaeological finds … which may rewrite history.

I see references to Stonehenge, the Long Man, etc. Many ancient cultures were great at astronomy and they built structures in accordance with their knowledge and perhaps as observatories. I don't see any special significance here.

The subjective Copenhagen approach is indeed interesting. The other sites you pointed to definitely seem lacking. Most of these types of mathematical games fail to take into account the size of the numbers quickly reached with geometric progression and permutation. Given a few objects (locations, letters, stars, etc.) the number of permutations is relatively huge. (e.g. a set of 52 cards yields 8.06581751709439E67 possible series). When finding patterns in these permutations the significance of patterns is usually overestimated, failing to take into account the number of possibilities.

~Raithere
 
Raithere,

First, let me remind you that I said that to try to prove the existence of God is an exercise in futility. I was merely pointing out the role of consciousness and the inability of science to maintain their theoretical standards. The web site you provided just added flame to the fire by pointing out lots of problems:

Problems with indeterminacy in the collapse of wave function.
Conflict with special relativistic speed limits
Problems with initial conditions
Schrodinger equation cannot describe collapse
Mathematic description consistent only upon assumption
Use of imaginary numbers in equations are not reality
Problems with macroscopic wave spread
Wave function only probabilistic and statistical
Wave and particle cooexist (somehow?)
Wave must (somehow?) influence trajectory
Particle must be (somehow?) guided by the wave
Proposed? Matter Waves?
The most brilliant scientists including Einstein, Feynman and others claim this is how nature works--like it or move somewhere else.
This person says "I claim it wasn't"
Then author has an "imaginary conversation" with other scientists saying ok to each of his postulations w/ no arguments
He tries to compare intelligent consciousness with the consciousness of a dog or insect.
He calls existing scientists "medieval necromancers"
So, of course, "our worldview" must be changed
What followed these conclusions were your copied remarks to me to make your point.

I have to disagree with you as far as DNA and archeology. Following the movie backwards in cosmology and physics is archaeology in it's most primitive form. So is the search for DNA origins. All of these sciences are merging together and they are the study of beginnings. Thus, my conclusion on this matter still stands. Science is being rewritten and they are beginning to factor in "intangibles" such as consciousness, first cause, conditions outside the boundary.etc. Sounds like they are looking for God too!!!

If early civilization had worried about the moving of the stars, the astrological system would never have developed--and astronomy would never have been born. The 3d applications mentioned in the Meru foundation are much deeper than what you investigated of it. There is some real science here even if it has a lot of religious overtones. Try looking beyond the religious and look at the science--it's really quite interesting. Again, thanks for your great response. It gave me a chance to look into it a bit deeper than I already had.
 
This is about the existence of God!

This thread is about the proof of the existence of God! Think about it! Do you think it's an accident that George Bush is president??? A religious man? A man who even now wages war on dark forces no matter where they run and hide?
 
The fact that Bush is prez is proof that Americans are bloody morons, not that God exists.

(And I'm American, so I can say this. :p )
 
Fox,

This thread is about the proof of the existence of God!
No, it’s about alleged proofs. And so far they have been shown to have no factual basis.

Think about it! Do you think it's an accident that George Bush is president???
No, it’s a result of a largely corrupt and unjust electoral system, but primarily it’s the result of large sums of money and the power struggle of corporate businesses to dominate the world.

A religious man? A man who even now wages war on dark forces no matter where they run and hide?
No, he is an ignorant man, and the puppet of zealous and power hungry bigots that stay in the background largely unseen.

If he truly believed in his god then he would obey his commands – “love thy enemies”, “vengeance is mine said the lord”.

No, he is seeking out murderers because it is politically astute to do so. If he was concerned with justice and human life then with the $billions spent on the Afghan war he could have shut down the tobacco companies 10 times over and begun the process of saving the lives of 400,000 Americans who die every year of tobacco related diseases. That is the equivalent of the WTC disaster twice every week.

It is all a matter of the gullibility of a largely ignorant populace and how their perceptions can be manipulated by unscrupulous and self-indulgent big businesses through their presidential puppet.

Explain to me why if Bush is being guided by a god why he doesn’t urgently address the issues of the millions of starving and homeless Americans and why he doesn’t spend more $billions on finding cures for the diseases that now kill millions? The truth is that there is little profit for big business to be had from the starving, homeless, and penniless. And don’t say it is because of his legacy from previous administrations since he is quite happy to spend billions on a high tech war because of a political perception.

No Bush is not God sent, he is the result of an immoral system and if anything he is the exact opposite of the fundamentals of most religions. Not that the Democrats would be any different, they are also part of the same unjust system.

Cris
 
Originally posted by Cris
No, it’s a result of a largely corrupt and unjust electoral system, but primarily it’s the result of large sums of money and the power struggle of corporate businesses to dominate the world.

No, he is an ignorant man, and the puppet of zealous and power hungry bigots that stay in the background largely unseen.

If he truly believed in his god then he would obey his commands – “love thy enemies”, “vengeance is mine said the lord”.

No, he is seeking out murderers because it is politically astute to do so. If he was concerned with justice and human life then with the $billions spent on the Afghan war he could have shut down the tobacco companies 10 times over and begun the process of saving the lives of 400,000 Americans who die every year of tobacco related diseases. That is the equivalent of the WTC disaster twice every week.

It is all a matter of the gullibility of a largely ignorant populace and how their perceptions can be manipulated by unscrupulous and self-indulgent big businesses through their presidential puppet.

Explain to me why if Bush is being guided by a god why he doesn’t urgently address the issues of the millions of starving and homeless Americans and why he doesn’t spend more $billions on finding cures for the diseases that now kill millions? The truth is that there is little profit for big business to be had from the starving, homeless, and penniless. And don’t say it is because of his legacy from previous administrations since he is quite happy to spend billions on a high tech war because of a political perception.

No Bush is not God sent, he is the result of an immoral system and if anything he is the exact opposite of the fundamentals of most religions. Not that the Democrats would be any different, they are also part of the same unjust system.

Cris [/B]
Originally posted by Cris
I agree with you on this point Cris :)

...i know it surprised me too!

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan,

I agree with you on this point Cris

...i know it surprised me too!
LOL, it almost makes me want to believe in miracles. :D

Cris
 
Originally posted by sonofbabylon
I was merely pointing out the role of consciousness and the inability of science to maintain their theoretical standards.

This is not the role of science. Science seeks to discern the truth regardless of current beliefs or "standards". That scientific theory is continually under examination and revision is demonstrative of this principle.

The web site you provided just added flame to the fire by pointing out lots of problems:

That was the point.

The most brilliant scientists including Einstein, Feynman and others claim this is how nature works--like it or move somewhere else.

Science does not submit to authority; else it would still describe a Copernican universe. That these scientists made major contributions to science does not make them irrefutable. Besides which, Einstein did not agree with some major quantum premises:

Einstein was very unhappy about this apparent randomness in nature. His views were summed up in his famous phrase, 'God does not play dice'
http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/dice.html
Hawking goes on to state:

When the experiment was carried out carefully, the results were inconsistent with hidden variables. Thus it seems that even God is bound by the Uncertainty Principle, and can not know both the position, and the speed, of a particle. So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.
He tries to compare intelligent consciousness with the consciousness of a dog or insect.

No, he states that the subjectivist position makes no distinction, which it doesn't.

He calls existing scientists "medieval necromancers"

No he quotes someone else here.

So, of course, "our worldview" must be changed

Again; No. He states that the subjective view states that "our worldview" must be changed from an objective position to a subjective one. He proposes that the objective paradigm should not be indiscriminately thrown away without research.

All of these sciences are merging together and they are the study of beginnings. Thus, my conclusion on this matter still stands.

I've yet to see any proofs for your conclusion of "God" only assumptive leaps.

Science is being rewritten and they are beginning to factor in "intangibles" such as consciousness, first cause, conditions outside the boundary.etc. Sounds like they are looking for God too!!!

God hides in the intangibles? This is the "God of the Gaps" argument. I keep noting problems with this argument:

1. The "Gaps" keep getting smaller.
2. The argument for God, in this method, is based upon ignorance.

The 3d applications mentioned in the Meru foundation are much deeper than what you investigated of it. There is some real science here even if it has a lot of religious overtones. Try looking beyond the religious and look at the science--it's really quite interesting.

Honestly, I'm trying to, I don't see science here I see psuedo-science. I explained my initial objections in my previous post. What I see is a mathmatical game, not proof. The significance of their "findings" is assumed.

Again, thanks for your great response. It gave me a chance to look into it a bit deeper than I already had.

And thank you. I'm impressed that you took the time to actually look at the references I offered, in my experience, most theists don't.

Personally, I find quantum theory quite exciting; it offers us a reactive universe rather than the stringent, mechanistic (dare I say soulless) universe of earlier physics. Whether it is the subjective approach, the objective approach, or some other paradigm, it looks as if the universe is interactive. We are an intrinsic part of the whole.

~Raithere
 
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