"It is based on the carrot and the stick. Why all the talk of sinners and salvation if only we conform to some practice or another."
:scratchin: Sorry, I am not familiar with the expression "carrot and stick." Regardless, it's not about blind conformity, it's about believing in a God whose existence was recorded when Jesus came to earth.
"And you know this because ...?"
"It is about spreading propoganda. Lokk at your statement above that "all have sinned". Utter rubbish which you would have others believe. You dignify it by calling it truth."
Again, I'm not sure what is meant here. Are you claiming that a person exists who is perfect? Who has never done anything wrong?
"Fine words but let's have some deeds to back them up And why should we not set our minds on high things, whatever that means. You would make mental cripples of us all."
I do not seek to deny that many Christians are arrogant hypocrites; egocentrism is inherent in human nature. But the principles themselves, and not the professed practicers of said principles are Christianity. Also, the part about high things makes no sense to me either. I do not know what they are talking about.
"It is arrogant to assume you have answers denied to non-believers. How, for example, do you know that people are chosen by god. Make a start by demonstrating his existence before telling us what he does. Why should we need to be saved and from what ? HOw is this known?"
It is a belief, not an assumption, just as you believe God does not exist, and it is rooted in the Bible. Demonstration of existence can wait for another thread; for now we should operate on the assumption, true or not, that God does exist - otherwise any debate would be impossible.
"Not true. Every little cult has its leaders or elders who assume the task of telling others what they need to do to be saved. The bigger ones have hierarchies made up of people who wear pointy hats and other such ridiculous garb."
Of course, structure is necessary for the survival of human society. However, the United States government does not tell people wha they should believe.
"Just words. Cut to the chase and you will see that they claim a god prepared a place called hell for those who refuse to do his bidding, as dictated by rhe cult leaders and their holy books, or who fail to accept that Jesus died for their sins. You have not refuted this; you merely expressed an opinion.:
Yes, there is a Hell, but people at least have a chance to avoid damnation (save the predestination debate for another thread please).
"We have moved on from then. We have had something called The Age of Reason, which appears to have passed many by and left them wallowing in superstition."
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that all Christians are intellectuals. What I said was that many intellectuals were Christians, which shows that the religion is not anti-scientific.
"You know it goes deeper than that. Ask anyone who has been exposed to Christian doctrine and you will find that there is an emphasis on making us feeled ashamed of our bodies and making them subservient to our putative souls.What was Paul ranting on about ? How about mortifying the flesh ?"
Catholicism does have comewhat of a morbid preoccupation with sex, agreed. But I am not a Catholic. Protestantism has no such preoccupation.
"Try asking a few homosexuals to begin with. !"
Lesbians can't have sex anyway, so their very orientation may produce sexual misery. As for gay men, they are more susceptible to STDs, so the same (to a
far lesser extent) may be said of them. But no, sexually active gays I don't think would get into heaven.
"Nobody said morality should not be taken seriously; you have invented that. Again look and what is done as opposed to all the pious nonsense which is quoted. You have failed to point out that all these wonderful things must be practised within a framework that conforms to Christian views, for the most part anyway."
The verse quoted is most certainly
not applicable only to Christian views. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness (to a significant other), and self-control are good qualities whether in a Christian or a non-Christian.
"I regard the Catholic church's view on condoms as producing evil results when you see small children dying of aids because their parents are discouraged from using condoms. Bigotry and hatred directed at homosexuls can be regarded as evil. I shall desist from writing a longer list."
Just because many Christians hate homosexuals does not mean this is condoned by Christianity. Homosexuality is wrong by the Bible, but that is no grounds on which to hate them. They are just normal people with a not-so-normal sexual orientation. I do not hate gays.
"A tree is a tree. In what sense is it glorious just because it happens to be green ? Luther's words are poetic but empty."
The point is, nature was designed by God, and to depreciate the value of God's beautiful creation would show disrespect for God himself. We should appreciate the beauty of nature.
"I agree with your point of view but I have no evidence of seeing what you describe being practised.
Also, what grounds have you for believing there is a god in the first instance ?"
Like I said, without first assuming that God exists, there can be no debate. Save that for another thread.
"You are avoiding the issue. Slavery was practised. It's back to fine words but not such fine deeds again."
"Never mind the Bible; just look at what is goiung on in the world when it comes to the ordination of women and the splits in the ranks it has caused."
Of course slavery was practiced. Just because something has been practiced doesn't mean it was right. The same goes for the other thing you said. (I'm not sure what it was referring to).
"The gospels were not written by men who were there. They were handed down orally to begin with, and we all know about Chinese whispers."
They were indeed written by people who were there. Each book of the gospel was written by the man whose name it bears. Three were direct witnesses (Matthew, Luke, and John); Mark was written by Mark, as it was recounted to him by Peter.
"I'll mention just one . In Kings we read of a woman who was gang raped, who died as a result and whose body was later cut into pieces to be sent to the tribes of Israel. The woman was offered to the gang a a substitute for the man they originally wanted, The householder involved said to those who knocked on his door " do with her what you think best, but do no such vile thing unto this man ( his visitor ). I'm quoting from memory. You'll find it all in graphic detail in the KJ version.
God did not interfere so this contradicts the notion that he is a loving god. He is loving when he chooses. Why does a god of love create hell for sinners?"
I don't know that God can necessarily be described as a loving God until he decided to send his son Jesus to humanity. When Jesus died on the cross, a new way to heaven was unveiled, and God became a God who forgave rather than punished. Before that, though, it would be far more accurate to describe him as a just God. The man who offered up the woman to the rapists probably went to Hell.
shrug
"You have said it. It is "reported". What evidence can you adduce to support the resurrection and that Jesus was god incarnate ?"
Reported, as in, by the Bible. The evidence for Christ's resurrection is presented in Lee Strobel's "The Case for Easter." If Jesus truly did rise from the dead, he was most definitely God incarnate.
