Zionist piracy

[Billy T]

The flotilla planed to come in at night and I don't they where going to give permission for a contraband search.

First part of that is not correct.
I fact the flotilla made a long loop detour along the southern coast of Cyprus to AVOID arriving within Israeli controlled waters during the dark.

This time of year, in the Northern Hemisphere the days are at approximately 13 hours long. Thus the sun rises at ~ 5:30AM. At 4:30 AM the flotilla was 70 Km off the coast and traveling at about 15 knots. They made the Cyprus detour so they would be about 50km from the shore when the sun rose. This is also why the Israelis attacked where they did, far from any water Israel had legal rights to control. I.e. Israel wanted to have both the element of surprise (at 4:30AM most were asleep) and to make their attack under the cover of darkness. The Israeli higher command apparently thought these two advantages for a military assault were more important than the adverse reaction to attacking far outside the waters Israel can legally control. They should have cleared the details of the attack with politicians more savvy in the likely PR reaction.
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About the second part we have no way to know if permission to inspect would have been granted to lightly armed inspectors. –It almost always is when the force requesting it can easily even sink your ship if refused.*

If Israel does learn from this mistake and conducts itself the way civilized nations do when stopping boat to inspect, then with the soon to arrive second part of the flotilla, we will know whether or not they will be granted permission to search the vessel. As they obviously will do so by force if permission is refused, I suspect they will be granted permission, provided they use a radio to ask for it and don’t ask for the permission with flash bangs, machine guns, while rappelling from helicopters onto the deck to ask directly in person.

PS to Electric: You lose creditability when you post things that violate the physics of the seasons, sunrise times, etc.

* The only exception I know of is the nearly fully submerged (for small radar cross section) torpedo-shaped boats that are used to smuggle drugs. When the US Coast Guard stops them, they typically scuttle their ship to the bottom and rely on the Coast guard to pick them from the sea, but as the US has no evidence they are soon free.

 

[GeoffP]

As I understand it, the Israelis did in fact ask them to divert. Is it known that they didn't ask for permission to board? I'll stipulate to the timing of the raid, naturally.

 

[Mr.Spock]

If Israel does learn from this mistake and conducts itself the way civilized nations do when stopping boat to inspect

Like North Korea. They just sunk a ship with a torpedo.

If Israel does learn from this mistake and conducts itself the way civilized nations do when stopping boat to inspect, then with the soon to arrive second part of the flotilla, we will know whether or not they will be granted permission to search the vessel. As they obviously will do so by force if permission is refused, I suspect they will be granted permission, provided they use a radio to ask for and don’t ask for the permission with flash bangs, machine guns, while rappelling from helicopters onto the deck to ask directly in person.

Such a true friend of Israel, why arent you defending Israel? Why are you lying saying we didnt warn the ship? The IDF said they radioed the Flotilla and warned its captain and passengers only to receive "Jihad Jihad" chants on the radio.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Maybe so, and duly noted: but, come on - it just isn't right.

Perhaps I'm being foolish, pushing for morality on an issue in which both players are hiding their faces.

The death penalty isn't right. Not allowing illegal aliens to live in your country isn't right either because they are poor and want to live in your country. Denying services to people without money may also not be right. There are lot's of things may not be right but are legal. If you decide blockades are not right then sanctions can't be right and what leverage do you leave yourself with then? You got it, actual war and violent confrontation. You try one thing and then another to avoid what would be worse.

The blockade amounts to Israel trying to see if they can disgruntle the people enough that they would turn on Hamas. Whether the blockade is right or wrong at this point from the governments strategic point of view depends on whether the blockade works or not. At the moment it doesn't seem to be working so they will have to re-strategize. Their aim is to force Hamas out of the situation and they have every reason to feel threatened by them.

 

[ElectricFetus]

First part of that is not correct.
I fact the flotilla made a long loop detour along the southern coast of Cyprus to AVOID arriving within Israeli controlled waters during the dark.

This time of year, in the Northern Hemisphere the days are at approximately 13 hours long. Thus the sun rises at ~ 5:30AM. At 4:30 AM the flotilla was 70 Km off the coast and traveling at about 15 knots. They made the Cyprus detour so they would be about 50km from the shore when the sun rose. This is also why the Israelis attacked where they did, far from any water Israel had legal rights to control.

After reveiw according to international law Israel had the right to board even in international waters, so it all become moot.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions...the_gaza_flotilla_conflict_is_an_openand.html

If Israel does learn from this mistake and conducts itself the way civilized nations do when stopping boat to inspect

they warned repeatedly to stop and of their coming boarding party, the boarded armed primarily with less-then lethal weapons, I think their actions on the boarding was in fact very civil. Rather blockading Gaza was a moral wrong and doom to fail strategy and is what Israel should not have done to begin with.

, then with the soon to arrive second part of the flotilla, we will know whether or not they will be granted permission to search the vessel. As they obviously will do so by force if permission is refused,

that why it called a blockade!

I suspect they will be granted permission, provided they use a radio to ask for and don’t ask for the permission with flash bangs, machine guns, while rappelling from helicopters onto the deck to ask directly in person.

Oh so they did not contact the ships beforehand warning repeatedly to turn back, go to alternate harbors, etc, etc?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

If Israel does learn from this mistake and conducts itself the way civilized nations do when stopping boat to inspect, then with the soon to arrive second part of the flotilla, we will know whether or not they will be granted permission to search the vessel. As they obviously will do so by force if permission is refused, I suspect they will be granted permission, provided they use a radio to ask for it and don’t ask for the permission with flash bangs, machine guns, while rappelling from helicopters onto the deck to ask directly in person.

PS to Electric: You lose creditability when you post things that violate the physics of the seasons, sunrise times, etc.

From the reuters link in my post on the previous page:

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.
"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defence after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.
Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.
"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said. The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."

 

[mordea]

Mordea dear heart I thought this would help you out a little:

Ah. So Gaza is a State, and Israel is at war with it?

 

[Billy T]

... The IDF said they radioed the Flotilla and warned its captain and passengers only to receive "Jihad Jihad" chants on the radio.

The Med is a very busy place, so dozens of ships were monitoring the same standard frequencies for hailing other boats. i.e. If that were true, then there should be reports from neutral observers of that request and that reply. In fact there should be at least half a dozen audio tape recordings as this cheap and is commonly done for insurance / legal records.

 

[Mr.Spock]

The Med is a very busy place, so dozens of ships were monitoring the same standard frequencies for hailing other boats. i.e. If that were true, then there should be reports from neutral observers of that request and that reply.

As usual Israel isn't right. We first have to prove in 200 documents with 2000 signatures that what we are saying its true. But a few terrorists wit knives and clubs, they are always correct.

With friends like this....

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Ah. So Gaza is a State, and Israel is at war with it?

What part of the post are you referring to exactly? It doesn't show as you only linked the first part of my post. Technically this is what took place:

The Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements ("the DOP"), signed in Washington on 13 September 1993, provides for a transitional period not exceeding five years of Palestinian interim self-government in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Permanent status negotiations began on 5 May 1996, but have not resumed since the initial meeting. Under the DOP, Israel agreed to transfer certain powers and responsibilities to the Palestinian Authority, which includes a Palestinian Legislative Council elected in January 1996, as part of interim self-governing arrangements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. A transfer of powers and responsibilities for the Gaza Strip and Jericho took place pursuant to the Israel-PLO 4 May 1994 Cairo Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area and in additional areas of the West Bank pursuant to the Israel-PLO 28 September 1995 Interim Agreement, the Israel-PLO 15 January 1997 Protocol Concerning Redeployment in Hebron, and the Israel-PLO 23 October 1998 Wye River Memorandum. The DOP provides that Israel will retain responsibility during the transitional period for external security and for internal security and public order of settlements and Israelis. Permanent status is to be determined through direct negotiations.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/judaism/blfaq_IsraelGazaFacts.htm

Technically there is a country called 'palestine'. It will remain in a transitional phase for as long as they can't get their shit together (my euphemism for not getting rid of Hamas or Hamas changing its rhetoric). Its a country that cannot even control its own borders or negotiate with its neighbors.

Here is an even better link:

A month later, Israel and the PA agreed to the Sharm el-Sheikh Commitments in an effort to move the peace process forward. In September 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew all its settlers and soldiers and dismantled its military facilities in the Gaza Strip and withdrew settlers and redeployed soldiers from four small northern West Bank settlements. Nonetheless, Israel still controls maritime, airspace, and most access to the Gaza Strip; and it enforces a restricted zone along the border inside Gaza. In January 2006, the Islamic Resistance Movement, HAMAS, won control of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). HAMAS took control of the PA government in March 2006, but President ABBAS had little success negotiating with HAMAS to present a political platform acceptable to the international community so as to lift economic sanctions on Palestinians.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

 

[Billy T]

The optimum time for any contact would be just before dawn, that is when the human body and its Circadian cycle is at it's lowest level of reaction, unless planned for in advance. That is why military units in combat have "stand too" before sun rise, to be ready for a dawn attack.

I agree with you here, provided one only considers the military aspects. I said essentially the same in my reply to ElectricFetus pointing out that her version violates the physic of seasonal changes in the sunrise hour.

PS I am working my way forward from my last post late yesterday, but seem to be losing ground the post are still coming so fast.

 

[Billy T]

According to the news, the head injuries on one journalist show that he was shot from the top of the ship ie from helicopters. I think under such circumstances, its not proactive to defend themselves when the commandos rappel down. Why were they shooting at journalists from the helicopters?

Unfortunately, for your cause SAM, we do not know exactly when he was shot. If the comrade in the helicopter was trying to defend an Israeli soldier on the ship in a situation that may have threatened the life of his comrade on the deck when he fired, then it is certainly understandable. This is only to exonerate the soldier firing the fatal bullet, not the decision makers who sent him to attack at 4:30 AM etc.

 

[mordea]

What part of the post are you referring to exactly? It doesn't show as you only linked the first part of my post.

Technically this is what took place:

???

I asked you a simple question.

Since you're referring to the San Remo Manual to justify the blockade... Oh wait, sorry. You copied and pasted an opinion piece of why the San Remon Manual justifies the blockade. So much for taking information from multiple sources, integrating them, and actually thinking for yourself.

Whatever. If you're going to hide behind the Sam Remo Manual, that implies that you're accepting the fact that:

1. Gaza is a sovereign nation.

2. Gaza is a belligerent (ie. there has been a declaration of war between Gaza and Israel).

Follow me so far, sweetcheeks?

Oh, now let's take this one step further. States participating in warfare are bound by certain international laws. Some of these laws are known as the Geneva Conventions. Now, if Israel is indeed at war with Gaza, it's violating a fuckload of these Conventions. For example, the Fourth Convention, which prohibits the establishment of civilians settlements on territory captured during war (ie. territory captured during war cannot be annexed). That's precisely why the Israeli administration has been reluctant to acknowledge Gaza's statehood, and also why it has never openly admitted to being at war with this nation.

So, all I can say is, pick your poison. Either Israel is legally entitled to enact the blockade but is definitely breaking a fuckload of other international laws, or is not entitled to enact the blockade and is arguably breaking a fuckload of international laws.

Do you still want to argue legalities with me, honey?

 

[Billy T]

... the fact that their weapon of choice for boarding ships is a PAINT BALL GUN.

Don't be ridiculous. Paint ball guns will not kill 9 people in a few minutes.

 

[Billy T]

... Now, these journalists were filming and reporting on the events as they occured. How did they pose a threat to the IDF? Do you consider reporting to be an attack?

Yes Israel does. Why reporters are often barred from Gaza, etc.

While cameras and video recorders were no threat to the IDF they are a threat to Israel. - Why Israel has confiscated them. As they say, "the truth it the first casualty in war." Israel has many years of experience in control of information flow. They are good at it.

 

[Billy T]

... I pointed out that there was clothes on the list. Your list shows that they are allowing essentials and not oppressing them through the bloody list.

The economic conditions in Gaza are terrible. Many are very poor and can not afford to buy ready to wear clothes, which are permitted to enter, but cloth for making your own is forbidden. That is why cloth is much more essential than finished clothes you cannot afford to buy.

It is the same story with many other items. Yes, you may import frozen fish, but not the equipment to catch any.

The whole point of these strange permitted / not permitted items is to keep residents of Gaza completely dependent upon the whims of the Israelis and stifle their efforts to gain any form of independence.

 

[Billy T]

... You people need to start listening more to people without a vested interest and a history of supporting violence. The violent "solution" has been tried over and over again, and it hasn't worked so far. You need some different ideas from people like me.

Or like me. Here is the alternative to the "high kill ratio" policy, which has failed for 60 years I first suggested 5 years ago, but this 2006 edition is more concise and better organized. See:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

Parts of it are used to keep the Green zone in Baghdad safe. If it were adopted, then NOT ONE Israeli could be killed by terrorist living in Gaza.
Unfortunately Israel needs to let one or two Israelis be killed each year by the crude unguided Gaza rockets to justify their high kill ratio policy.

This plan, or something like it, would need to remain in effect for about two generations (~40 year) so that most who are so filled with hate that they cannot act in their own self interest, can die in their beds of old age.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Or like me. Here is the alternative to the "high kill ratio" policy, which has failed for 60 years I first suggested 5 years ago, but this 2006 edition is more concise and better organized. See:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115

I find all that agreeable and considering the development in lasers rocket/mortar defense I would recommend a minor change in step 5 but that about it.

 

[fedr808]

I find all that agreeable and considering the development in lasers rocket/mortar defense I would recommend a minor change in step 5 but that about it.

the thing is even if Israel were to have the capability to stop it, what difference would you make?

Gaza still fired the rockets.


Billyt, I wanna know what kind of idiotic country you come from where firing a rocket on civilian infrastructure is not an act of war.

 

[ElectricFetus]

the thing is even if Israel were to have the capability to stop it, what difference would you make?

Gaza still fired the rockets.

Exactly, just live with Gaza firing rockets, build a rocket defense system, fire back with artillery, and in general pretend Gaza is dead to you. The Gazains will stop firing missiles when they start having something worth not dying for. Let them build and economy and they will become passivated and won't want to take over Israel and risk losing what the have gained.