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Re: You forgot about statistical and moral deviations, Lady

Originally posted by tiassa
You still don't understand it, do you? When the Christian persecutors cease their aggressive attempts to divide out various portions of humanity from God's will, the targets of that wrath will cease worrying about their place in Christian theology. In the meantime, the fight is on because Christians choose that it should be so. Those Christians who disagree with the Christian persecutors ought to lend more voice and effort to protecting what is right. But since people (A) choose to have a problem with homosexuality, and (B) choose to believe that events in the Universe can defy God's will, such points need to be answered. Those points are the basis of Christian-derived persecution of gays. It seems very petty and narrow to me, when viewing the alleged logic of the Christian persecutors, that the all-powerful God should have so little say in those things which He blesses and creates.

God has forcibly "corrected" His mistakes in the Bible before. The episode of the Tower of Babel shows God causing people to speak in foreign tongues, thus fracturing human harmony and setting nations as such against one another.

God can choose to eliminate whatever aspect of humanity makes homosexuality desirable. Yet God does not. God thus, for whatever reasons, wills that homosexuals should exist, and, having such knowledge, continues to commission the creation of human beings who are unsatisfactory to His own expressed standards. (Note: every human born is created by God to be unsatisfactory to His own standards. After all, Christians do believe that people need to be redeemed through Christ, insofar as they are even born; while many Christians I know try to deflect that little point, none can provide any real answer as to when sin enters the human soul.)

I don't understand why you're so irritated at people who are responding to aggression with communication. Would it be better, then, if all homosexuals just came together and tried to murder all Christians? The historical precedent of Christians murdering people for all sorts of silly differences of opinion is quite thick. What does it matter if a gay person says he or she was created homosexual by God? I'm willing to bet you any currency you would like that the assertion must first exist that homosexuals are outside God's creation, defiant of God's will, and choosing arbitrarily to sin against God. Gays would be best left to dwell those issues in quiet conscience; the Bible itself might speak to them, but the people who believe it and set the conventional meaning of what those words say utterly fails by proxy of its utter lack of human compassion. There is no compassion in persecution. And faced with a choice of either talking it out or taking to the streets in defense of their rights, gays generally choose talk. And when you cut right into the rhetoric, to assert that God does not create people to be homosexual is borderline blasphemy. It has the natural effect of implying that something happens in the Universe that is not according to His Will, or that something is created without His Blessing.

Be as spontaneous as you want. Be as good as you want. Be as wicked as you want, it doesn't matter. Such is what God planned for you, and such is the manner in which God has implemented you.

The easiest way around it is to admit that God isn't all-powerful, but that sort of kills any authority to establish that the Bible deserves any consideration in the legislative and electoral arenas.

The reasons people continue to debate whether or not homosexuality is created by God is simply that it was more important to certain Christian persecutors to win their earthly crusade against homosexuality than it was to respect the words in the Bible.

• For what reasons, under what conditions, or to what purpose is a statistical deviation converted to a moral deviation?

(I thought I'd ask again, since you chose to not consider it the first time.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
Click to expand...



Tiassa,


** First off don't hold me responsible for what Christian's did to homosexuals. I think it becomes a moral deviant when homosexuals claim God created them Gay. But then again my answers suck.
 
I think it becomes a moral deviant when homosexuals claim God created them Gay.
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This is because you are a bigot.

But then again my answers suck.
Click to expand...

Since you have still done nothing to substantiate your claims that homosexuality is morally deviant in the same way as pedophilia or beastiality, I would have to agree.

Tiassa: I can't figure out whether we agree on any of this or not.
 
If your answers suck, Lady, it's your own problem

First off don't hold me responsible for what Christian's did to homosexuals. I think it becomes a moral deviant when homosexuals claim God created them Gay. But then again my answers suck.
Click to expand...
If your answers suck, it's only because you're insisting on them while pretending to inquire about various issues. I get the feeling, interacting with you in these threads that your inquiries have nothing to do with resolving issues of your own intellect, but rather seek to start a discussion in which you might repeat again and again a principle that you hold to be true. It's almost as if you're standing with your hands over your ears shouting that you can't hear anyone.

And why hold you responsible? The simple fact is that the history you don't want to be held responsible for happens to be an essential part of the answer to the alleged questions you've posed.

I'm sad to hear, though, that you find detailed examinations of what God actually said in the Bible to be morally deviant. (Although I'm not surprised.) Perhaps the Christians who persecute shouldn't be encouraging so much moral deviance by raising issues that call for such examination of Scripture and the ethics derived therefrom.

In the meantime, each new post you put up seems to dodge the issues you yourself raised and seeks some new way to re-establish your opinion as fact.

Why do you refuse to discuss the information offered in response to the issues you chose to raise? I find it puzzling behavior, since it resembles that of some of our past hostile posters.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Originally posted by Walker
This is because you are a bigot.



Since you have still done nothing to substantiate your claims that homosexuality is morally deviant in the same way as pedophilia or beastiality, I would have to agree.

Tiassa: I can't figure out whether we agree on any of this or not.
Click to expand...




But are homosexuals created gay? Or is it choice. No one told the homosexual community to blame God for their behavior so how am I a bigot


The simple laws of procreation should be enough to prove homosexuality is a deviant however I never said it was in the same manner that the rest are.
 
Re: If your answers suck, Lady, it's your own problem

Originally posted by tiassa
If your answers suck, it's only because you're insisting on them while pretending to inquire about various issues. I get the feeling, interacting with you in these threads that your inquiries have nothing to do with resolving issues of your own intellect, but rather seek to start a discussion in which you might repeat again and again a principle that you hold to be true. It's almost as if you're standing with your hands over your ears shouting that you can't hear anyone.

And why hold you responsible? The simple fact is that the history you don't want to be held responsible for happens to be an essential part of the answer to the alleged questions you've posed.

I'm sad to hear, though, that you find detailed examinations of what God actually said in the Bible to be morally deviant. (Although I'm not surprised.) Perhaps the Christians who persecute shouldn't be encouraging so much moral deviance by raising issues that call for such examination of Scripture and the ethics derived therefrom.

In the meantime, each new post you put up seems to dodge the issues you yourself raised and seeks some new way to re-establish your opinion as fact.

Why do you refuse to discuss the information offered in response to the issues you chose to raise? I find it puzzling behavior, since it resembles that of some of our past hostile posters.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
Click to expand...




** Why do you continue to keep writing me? If I aggrevate you so much.
**The problem is you don't believe the scriptures, so whats the point?
** Perhaps my hands is over my ear's because you talk to much and blame me for all the sin's committed by Christians.
 
Originally posted by Lady
But are homosexuals created gay? Or is it choice.
No one told the homosexual community to blame God
for their behavior so how am I a bigot

The simple laws of procreation should be enough to
prove homosexuality is a deviant however I never said
it was in the same manner that the rest are.
Click to expand...

How do you explain homosexual behavior in animals?
 
But are homosexuals created gay? Or is it choice. No one told the homosexual community to blame God for their behavior so how am I a bigot
Click to expand...

That you, in your vast self-righteousness, decree their behavior as something they must be ashamed of, and therefore "blame" on someone, makes you a bigot. You still have no support for the idea that homosexuality is deviant or wrong.

Ignorance is a choice, and it's one that you're making with every post and every breath. That's not something that can contend with reason, except to ignore it, which is how you are able to make your preposterous deductions. I'm through trying to have an actual conversation with you, since you, in your blindness, are dedicated to nothing but hate and stupidity.
 
Short is the road that leads from fear to hatred.
-Italian proverb

Fear and stupidity has always been the basis
of most human actions. -Albert Einstein
 
Does anyone else get annoyed that Lady usually has more quote than actual input.....

Why don't you just draw the relevant parts out, they can look up if they want the rest.
 
[






QUOTE]Originally posted by Walker
That you, in your vast self-righteousness, decree their behavior as something they must be ashamed of, and therefore "blame" on someone, makes you a bigot. You still have no support for the idea that homosexuality is deviant or wrong.

* The bible states it as wrong along with many other things.....perhaps you should vent your anger at God.....Not me
* I didn't say they should be ashamed I only asked why blame it on God? Doesn't sound like judgement or bigotry.

* Once again procreation should be enough to prove homosexuality a sexual deviance, whether its wrong or right is up to the individual.




Ignorance is a choice, and it's one that you're making with every post and every breath. That's not something that can contend with reason, except to ignore it, which is how you are able to make your preposterous deductions. I'm through trying to have an actual conversation with you, since you, in your blindness, are dedicated to nothing but hate and stupidity. [/QUOTE]

* Where have I displayed hate?
*Homosexuality is a choice too.
 
Originally posted by EvilPoet
How do you explain homosexual behavior in animals?
Click to expand...



If there is homosexual behavior in animals(I DOUBT) what does it matter? Because no where in the Bible that I read is animals unlike humans held accountable for their actions. I still hold on to the belief that animals have sex only durning mating season. Image if animals had sex like humans they would totally rule the planet.:D
 
I could point out that the "holy bible" is just a book, and that only a quarter of the world even acknowledges its validity, and even those that do can't agree on it's meaning. I could also point out that nowhere in the bible does it expressly say that homosexuality is evil, a sin, or condemnable in any way, by Man or by god.

I could point out that the idea that homosexuals have to "blame" their lifestyle on anything indicated that it's something to be ashamed of.

I could also reiterate that, since homosexuality occurs in animals, and since heterosexuals have sex for pleasure, masturbate for pleasure, eat for pleasure in addition to sustainance, and do all kinds of things that lack utility, such as watch TV and post on message boards, homosexual sex can hardly be described as deviant just because it doesn't serve the purpose of procreation. Not every act must have utility to be valid, sex included. Unless you want to call eating chocolate, posting on SciForums and going to church functions deviant behavior as well.

I might be bothered to mention that you display hate by lumping the homosexual act/lifestyle into the same category as acts and lifesyles that are clearly harmful and clearly detestable. Anyone who doesn't hate the abuse of children or who isn't disgusted by sex with animals is clearly perverse, or a reprobate, as these acts are harmful, dangerous and probably malicious. Including homosexuals in this category would only serve to target them for hate.

If I were so inclined, I would point out that the fact that homosexual sex is a choice has already been established, and that it's really not any kind of defense against my comment about ignorance. You are choosing to think your narrow little thoughts, and beat your chest because your faith in some bigoted, wrathful "supreme being" apparently makes you better than other people. Didn't Jesus want his followers to befriend and help others, not label them, denounce them or condem them for being sinners? Weren't his closest followers prostitutes, thugs and violent killers? As I recall, they were.

Unfortunatly, I'm a busy guy, and can't be bothered to waste my time making all these points. I'm done with this thread. I'll reiterate my earlier comment: I'm glad that small people who hate others because they don't like or understand them don't make the rules, at least not all the time.
 
If there is homosexual behavior in
animals (I DOUBT)
Click to expand...

Bonobo

Status: Bonobos are endangered due to destruction of
their forest habitat and bushmeat hunting. Estimates of their
population range from 5,000 to 20,000 animals.

Name: The name "bonobo" is derived from the town of
Bolobo which lies on the Zaire River in the western area of the
Democratic Republic of Congo.

Sex: Bonobos live a relatively peaceful life compared to
chimpanzees. This is due largely to the fact that female bonobos
are eight times more available to males for mating and there are
equal numbers of females to mature males so there is less
fighting for mating rights. Sex is an important way to ensure
group stability and ease tensions. Bonobos substitute sex for
aggression, and sexual interactions occur more often among
bonobos than among other primates. Reduced male aggression,
strong bonds between males and females, and frequent sex
(including male-to-male and female-to-female) characterize
bonobo society. However, the rate of reproduction in the wild is
about the same as that of chimpanzees (a single infant is born
every five to six years) beginning at age 12.

Frequently asked questions about bonobos:

What is that big thing on the bottom?
The female genitalia is on the outside. During her monthly cycle
(estrus), the bonobo genitalia will swell.

What are they doing?
Bonobos engage in sexual activities of all sorts— frequently for
purposes other than breeding. They use heterosexual and
homosexual activities to release excitement and tension. Any
erotic behavior employed by man is also used by bonobos.

Why is the bonobo considered man's closest living relative?
More than 98% of bonobo DNA is like that of human's and it is a
fraction of a percent closer to human DNA than that of the
common chimpanzee. Man is the closest living relative to both the
bonobo and the chimpanzee. In other words, the bonobo and the
chimp are closer to humans than they are to gorillas.

How are bonobos different from chimpanzees?
Chimps resolve sex issues with power; bonobos resolve power
issues with sex. Bonobos believe in "make love, not war." Chimps
are known for making war. Physically, bonobos are smaller,
darker, hairier around the face, and more erect than chimps.

How intelligent are bonobos?
Without going into a lot of detail defining intelligence in ape
terms, suffice it to say that bonobos are very intelligent. Observe
their tool use and their ability to organize intricate social
relationships. Scientific studies also reveal that bonobos have a
sense of self (they recognize themselves in a mirror). Only apes
have shown this ability.

What is the difference between apes and monkeys?
Monkeys have tails and apes do not.

Note: one monkey, the barbary macaque, does not have a tail.


Source:
http://www.colszoo.org/animalareas/aforest/bonobo.html
 
It should also be noted that gays aren't "created" in the sense that god tailor-made them, but rather it's more or less a part of their genetics, which happened (mostly) by chance.

God didn't make them, genetics did. Sorry.
 
Since noone responded to me ill just post it again

----Does anyone else get annoyed that Lady usually has more quote than actual input.....

Why don't you just draw the relevant parts out, they can look up if they want the rest.----

Whats funney is that lady did it again right after this post! look!
 
Lady

Why do you continue to keep writing me? If I aggrevate you so much.
Click to expand...
Because it would break my heart to really believe that you are truly this stupid, arrogant, and cruel. Call it a weakness of mine.
The problem is you don't believe the scriptures, so whats the point?
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The point is that I wouldn't worry about the Scriptures if they weren't held up by some as justification for proposed injustice. Furthermore, it seems to me that someone recently asked about homosexuality in terms of churches and religions and what to tell children. In other words, it seems to me that someone made the Scriptures important to this debate.
Perhaps my hands is over my ear's because you talk to much and blame me for all the sin's committed by Christians.
Click to expand...
If that's what you think, you're welcome to it. But how is it that you can ask these questions, get answers, and take them so personally? The sins of other Christians are vital considerations to the answers to your questions. What you choose to make of that information is entirely up to you.

In the meantime, it seems quite important to continue to communicate the point. Once people stop seeing homosexuality as something so different that it needs moral explanation, we'll all be better off. In other words, my reasons for taking part in this discussion transcend this mere topic.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Frencheneesz

Well, technically, yes. But it was another of those things I was trying not to say anything about. Myself, I wouldn't care how much space she wastes quoting if she just had something to say. I wish I could say that it was rare that I encountered this behavior pattern, but I'm very familiar with it in terms of the Bible and its adherents.

Someday I will figure out how to deal with it.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
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