Official story supporter's lethal paper, Round 3
This post is in response to the 1st part of shaman_'s post 1417 in this thread.
You seem to assume there's another credible possibility other then thermate. You've provided no evidence that this is the case, however.
It makes sense that it would be thermite, which is capable of doing that type of damage to a car. What does -not- make sense is the the type of 'explanation' given by the type of people you like linking to, who laughably think scraps of burning paper could do this:
It's the only credible answer. One is sure to find fluff answers from official story supporters like paper though.
Yes, fluff answers will definitely be derided, as they should be.
Alright, I've backed up this conversation 4 posts now and I still don't see where I have 'dodged' anything.
I have never said that Astaneh believes that the towers were taken down by controlled demolitions. What you seem to fail to realize is that the fact that he doesn't support the controlled demolition theory makes it all the more interesting that he has reported seeing evidence of melted and even vaporized steel. He is even aware of the significance of this to some extent, when he commented on the collapsing of the Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge which fell but did -not- melt; as he put it in a Newshour interview when describing what happened to the bridge:
Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders [in the bridge], because there was no melting of girders [there]. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.
He also reported evidence of melted and even vaporized steel, which is -well- beyond 2000F. Explosives can manage this, but the jet initiated office fires can't.
I'm simply adding what I feel is a more apt description.
I don't recall him ever looking for any. NIST freely admits it didn't.
Oh definitely. High enough to melt and even vaporize it a well. I wonder what could get the steel to reach such high temperatures?
Oh, I fully agree; definitely looks like some of that steel was melted. I can only imagine how much steel of that nature was there before the investigation teams were allowed to take a good look.
There's no way in hell that you could get steel yellow hot or white hot at 2000 Fahrenheit without the help of something like thermate. The fact that Astaneh doesn't know that doesn't speak well of his knowledge in this regard.
Brian Kross, Chief Detector Engineer, elaborates on the melting point of steel:
While it's certainly true that much of steel was conveniently sliced up to bring the building down, if anything could manage to only bend instead of shatter when hit by explosive forces, it'd be something like steel. The concrete certainly had no chance, turning almost completely into a fine dust.
This post is in response to the 1st part of shaman_'s post 1417 in this thread.
I haven't heard any other possibilities offered, by either side. Mine would atleast fit in with a lot of other evidence pointing to the use of thermite/thermate. Feel free to offer a different possibility if you have any.
I have never seen them discussed at all.
You seem to assume there's another credible possibility other then thermate. You've provided no evidence that this is the case, however.
shaman_ said:Unknown does not equal thermite though.
It makes sense that it would be thermite, which is capable of doing that type of damage to a car. What does -not- make sense is the the type of 'explanation' given by the type of people you like linking to, who laughably think scraps of burning paper could do this:
shaman_ said:I guess the default answer is always thermite
It's the only credible answer. One is sure to find fluff answers from official story supporters like paper though.
shaman_ said:until a debunker comes up with one (which will be derided anyway).
Yes, fluff answers will definitely be derided, as they should be.
shaman_ said:scott3x said:shaman_ said:scott3x said:shaman_ said:If steel was found that was twisted and softened and floors were seen bowing due to the heat then what role does thermite play?
As Tony Szamboti has made clear, the bowing was probably due to the thermite, not the fires. It looks like thermite played even more of a role than I'd previously known.
What about the softened steel? Astaneh compared it to licorice.
Sure, if you're thinking of the type of 'softening' that a few well placed missiles can accomplish . I think a more accurate description would be 'explosively bent' steel...
Your [insulted removed] comment here is a dodge. You have dodged it every time.
Alright, I've backed up this conversation 4 posts now and I still don't see where I have 'dodged' anything.
shaman_ said:How do you account for the comments made by Astaneh? You know… the guy you try and quote when you think he supports your conspiracy...
I have never said that Astaneh believes that the towers were taken down by controlled demolitions. What you seem to fail to realize is that the fact that he doesn't support the controlled demolition theory makes it all the more interesting that he has reported seeing evidence of melted and even vaporized steel. He is even aware of the significance of this to some extent, when he commented on the collapsing of the Oakland-San Francisco Bay Bridge which fell but did -not- melt; as he put it in a Newshour interview when describing what happened to the bridge:
Here, it most likely reached about 1,000 to 1,500 degrees. And that is enough to collapse them, so they collapsed. So the word "melting" should not be used for girders [in the bridge], because there was no melting of girders [there]. I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center.
shaman_ said:[Astaneh] commented on seeing steel which had become very soft from the heat which he estimated around 2000F.
He also reported evidence of melted and even vaporized steel, which is -well- beyond 2000F. Explosives can manage this, but the jet initiated office fires can't.
shaman_ said:scott3x said:I think a more accurate description would be 'explosively bent' steel...
What the hell are you talking about? We are talking about Astaneh’s comments.
I'm simply adding what I feel is a more apt description.
shaman_ said:He found no evidence of explosives
I don't recall him ever looking for any. NIST freely admits it didn't.
shaman_ said:...but found evidence of temperatures high enough to weaken the steel.
Oh definitely. High enough to melt and even vaporize it a well. I wonder what could get the steel to reach such high temperatures?
shaman_ said:"If you remember the Salvador Dalí paintings with the clocks that are kind of melted -- it's kind of like that.
Oh, I fully agree; definitely looks like some of that steel was melted. I can only imagine how much steel of that nature was there before the investigation teams were allowed to take a good look.
shaman_ said:That could only happen if you get steel yellow hot or white hot -- perhaps around 2,000 degrees."
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i15/15a02701.htm
There's no way in hell that you could get steel yellow hot or white hot at 2000 Fahrenheit without the help of something like thermate. The fact that Astaneh doesn't know that doesn't speak well of his knowledge in this regard.
Brian Kross, Chief Detector Engineer, elaborates on the melting point of steel:
What's the melting point of steel?
That depends on the alloy of steel you are talking about. The term alloy is almost always used incorrectly these days, especially amongst bicyclists. They use the term to mean aluminum. What the term alloy really means is a mixture of metals, any kind of metals. Almost all metal used today is a mixture and therefore an alloy.
Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F).
That depends on the alloy of steel you are talking about. The term alloy is almost always used incorrectly these days, especially amongst bicyclists. They use the term to mean aluminum. What the term alloy really means is a mixture of metals, any kind of metals. Almost all metal used today is a mixture and therefore an alloy.
Most steel has other metals added to tune its properties, like strength, corrosion resistance, or ease of fabrication. Steel is just the element iron that has been processed to control the amount of carbon. Iron, out of the ground, melts at around 1510 degrees C (2750°F). Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F).
shaman_ said:‘Explosively bent’? Explosions don’t just weaken steel. They shatter things with force.
While it's certainly true that much of steel was conveniently sliced up to bring the building down, if anything could manage to only bend instead of shatter when hit by explosive forces, it'd be something like steel. The concrete certainly had no chance, turning almost completely into a fine dust.
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