Write4U's wobbly world of word salad woo

[Pinball1970]

Don't tell that to the herder ant.

You missed the point of my analogy, perhaps they were a bit clumsy so I'll try again.
IF the ant could ONLY ever walked along the X and Y axis in space it would not be able tell there was a third dimension.
Why did we think the earth was flat for so long? Because it is! Locally, it is the fact its curvature is unrecognisable to us because it is so slight in our own little world.
We could not leave the surface (like the ant/fish) fly into space and and have a good look at it.
So too with our universe, by definition the universe is everything so we cannot "go outside" it and view from another perspective.

 

[Pinball1970]

Could we measure if Andromeda and Milky Way are accelerating towards each other?

Yes, Andromeda is blue shifted and will collide and eventually merge with our own galaxy according to current understanding.
Our own star, the sun would have swallowed up the inner most planets by then.
We are talking about 3 billion years time so I would not sell the farm just yet.

 

[Write4U]

So too with our universe, by definition the universe is everything so we cannot "go outside" it and view from another perspective.

I once used an ant-farm as an example of being the "world" to an ant.

 

[Pinball1970]

I agree with that. It seems illogical to have an infinitely expanding universe with finite energy

That was a typo from me and I corrected it. If the universe is infinite now, it always was.
So our BB that happened 13.8 billion years could have began from an infinite region of space.

 

[Write4U]

Do you think that "spacetime" is a substance that needs to be created?

Yes. Unless you want to propose that the universe is expanding into an already existing infinite spacetime.

CDT proposes that the universal fabric itself is unfolding in a fractal manner.

Causal dynamical triangulation (CDT), theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, is an approach to quantum gravity that, like loop quantum gravity, is background independent.

This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space) but, rather, attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

There is evidence [1] that, at large scales, CDT approximates the familiar 4-dimensional spacetime but shows spacetime to be 2-dimensional near the Planck scale, and reveals a fractal structure on slices of constant time. These interesting results agree with the findings of Lauscher and Reuter, who use an approach called Quantum Einstein Gravity, and with other recent theoretical work.

Causal dynamical triangulation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said:
The deterministic nature of natural processes demand discrete relational processing values, else you get garbage in, garbage out.

James R said:
Your posts are typically garbage out. "Discrete relational processing values" is, of course, meaningless. We can tell because you use the magic word "values", which, as we have already established, is meaningless whenever you write it. And that's before we even start to consider the issues with the preceding three words.

What is a deterministic value?

If the outcome of a variable is fixed, i.e. if a variable will always have the exact same value, we call this a deterministic variable.

Pre 1.2 Deterministic and random variables - TU Delft OCW

ocw.tudelft.nl

Do you have a problem with this use of the term "value"?

 

[exchemist]

Yes. Unless you want to propose that the universe is expanding into an already existing infinite spacetime.

CDT proposes that the universal fabric itself is unfolding in a fractal manner.

Causal dynamical triangulation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You have absolutely no idea what any of this means.

 

[Write4U]

You have absolutely no idea what any of this means.

And that observation is supposed to help me ?

If you do know, why don't you shine some light on the apparent contradiction posited in line one of the above.

Note that CDT speaks of an evolving spacetime fabric:

"This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space) but, rather, attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves."

So what does that mean? Spacetime evolving in a pre-existing space, even as it does not assume a pre-existing arena?

 

[James R]

Write4U:

Yes. Unless you want to propose that the universe is expanding into an already existing infinite spacetime.

The universe isn't expanding into anything. There's no "outside" of the universe.

CDT proposes that the universal fabric itself is unfolding in a fractal manner.

I don't care, unless you can explain why it proposes that and what justification is given for it. Can you?

What is a deterministic value?

Do you have a problem with this use of the term "value"?

Do I have a problem when a mathematician uses the words "value of a variable" to refer specifically to a numerical value - i.e. a specific, single thing that is specified or understood in advance and is unambiguous?

No, I don't have a problem with that.

I have a problem with you usage of the word "value" to mean whatever you want it to mean at any given time.

---

Is this the best response you have to my previous couple of posts? Where are your answers to the direct questions I asked you? Where are the explanations I asked you for? Why have you ignored most of what I wrote to you?

 

[exchemist]

And that observation is supposed to help me ?

Of course not.

But then you didn't ask for help. You were telling James something, i.e. implying you already understood it and were thus in a position to inform him about it.

 

[Write4U]

I have a problem with you usage of the word "value" to mean whatever you want it to mean at any given time.

Is that not the meaning of a "variable"? Something that can mean whatever that value is at any given time?

Do I have a problem when a mathematician uses the words "value of a variable" to refer specifically to a numerical value - i.e. a specific, single thing that is specified or understood in advance and is unambiguous?

But I think you are still missing my point. I am not talking about the use of a term that means something to a mathematician.

I am saying that physical "values" (potentials) are the only things the universe can recognize and process, regardless of any human interpretation.

CDT proposes that the universal fabric itself is unfolding in a fractal manner.

I don't care, unless you can explain why it proposes that and what justification is given for it. Can you?

Yes, the triangle is the simplest 2 dimensional object that lends itself to the formation of the most complex 3 dimensional patterns
imaginable. And the triangle is a logical object.

The Mathematical Voodoo of Triangles​

When you try to build shapes out of too many triangles, some bizarre things start to happen.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/pop.h-cdn.co/assets/16/48/768x384/landscape-1480347193-icosaedro-desarrollo2.gif?resize=1200:*

The Crazy Geometric Mystery of Triangles

When you try to build shapes out of too many triangles, some bizarre things start to happen.

www.popularmechanics.com

And fractals show up at very small scales.

 

[exchemist]

Is that not the meaning of a "variable"? Something that can mean whatever that value is at any given time?



But I think you are still missing my point. I am not talking about the use of a term that means something to a mathematician.

I am saying that physical "values" (potentials) are the only things the universe can recognize and process, regardless of any human interpretation.

A value and a potential are two quite different things.

 

[Write4U]

A value and a potential are two quite different things.

Yes, a value is a potential manifest. Or the reverse , a potential is an unmanifest value .
Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes, a value is a potential manifest. Or the reverse , a potential is an unmanifest value .
Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.

Manifest?

 

[Write4U]

Manifest?

Yes.

​ What is another word for become manifest?​

Verb
▲

To come into existence, start, appear, begin, emerge, arise, arrive, develop, materialiseUK, materializeUS, transpire, unfold, actualize, come into being, commence, erupt, form, originate, rise, break, come about, come forth, come up, crop up, dawn, evolve, exist, happen, issue, kick in, occur, pop up, show up, spring up, take form, take place, take shape, turn up, be born, begin life, burst out, crystalliseUK, crystallizeUS, first see the light of day, ...... ,more

Take your pick.

Note that my use of potential is "that which may become reality" (manifest).

 

[Pinball1970]

Yes, a value is a potential manifest. Or the reverse , a potential is an unmanifest value .
Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.

If spoke like that at a conference people would think you had been too long at the bar before coming into the presentation.

Also why bring Bohm into it?

Yet again?

 

[Write4U]

Yet again?

Because I believe he had an important message. I particularly like his concepts of Wholeness and the Implicate and Explicate orders.
It presents a fundamental structural concept of a TOE.

 

[Write4U]

If spoke like that at a conference people would think you had been too long at the bar before coming into the presentation.

Why? Was it wrong?

p.s. I don't drink.

 

[Pinball1970]

fundamental structural concept of a TOE.

Bohm is to do with QM or rather interpretation of QM not a TOE

I do not think you understand how unbelievably complicated this stuff is conceptually and mathematically.
You really must have (IMO) a really solid grounding in the QM before you can assess the interpretations.

 

[Write4U]

Bohm is to do with QM or rather interpretation of QM not a TOE

I do not think you understand how unbelievably complicated this stuff is conceptually and mathematically.
You really must have (IMO) a really solid grounding in the QM before you can assess the interpretations.

Please, I have no delusions of grandeur. To my understanding this is no more than any other science fiction story, except that this is not fiction according to people who do understand QM. It is fascinating nevertheless.

I believe Bohm went a lot deeper than just QM. People called it woo, but then along comes Roger Penrose and ORCH OR
And here is where I intuitively find a relationship between Bohmian Mechanics and Penrose's concept of non-computable Objective Reduction.

How did Penrose prove black holes?

Basically, Penrose showed that according to Einstein's theory plus a couple of assumptions, black holes must contain singularities. And this is true regardless of how the black hole formed. He did it in a clever way - by showing that the grid of spacetime literally comes to an end inside a black hole.Mar 3, 2022

And a similar process happens inside brains? That piques my curiosity.
(p.s. forget about the wet, noisy brain counter-argument. That problem has been answered).

Collapsing a leading theory for the quantum origin of consciousness​

"How consciousness arises in the brain is a huge puzzle," says Catalina Curceanu, a member of the physics think tank, the Foundational Questions Institute, FQXi, and the lead physicist on the experiments at INFN in Frascati, Italy. "There are many competing ideas, but very few can be experimentally tested."

Quantum computations in the brain​

Curceanu first became interested in Orch OR theory when she met Penrose, also an FQXi member, at a conference some years ago. Consciousness is not usually associated with quantum properties because quantum effects are fragile and difficult to maintain even under highly-controlled conditions and cold temperatures in the lab. So it had long been assumed that the brain's warm and wet environment would be too disruptive to allow quantum effects to survive.

But Penrose explained that he and Hammeroff have identified tiny structures called microtubules within neurons in the brain that could potentially sustain quantum effects for short periods—just long enough to carry out quantum computations. Orch OR theory attributes consciousness to quantum computations orchestrated ("Orch") by electrical oscillations in these microtubules. "What I loved about this theory was that it is in principle testable and I decided to search for evidence that might help confirm or falsify it," says Curceanu.

Collapsing a leading theory for the quantum origin of consciousness

The origin of consciousness is one of the greatest mysteries of science. One proposed solution, first suggested by Nobel Laureate and Oxford mathematician Roger Penrose and anesthesiologist Stuart Hammeroff, at the University of Arizona, in Tucson, attributes consciousness to quantum...

phys.org

Just the juxtaposition of quantum holes in the spacetime fabric of black holes and the orchestrated quantum reduction via MT in the brain presents a tremendous potential plot for a grand science fiction novel, even if it sounds far-fetched....