would you give up your place in heaven for me
- Thread starter mustafhakofi
- Start date
I believe it's 1 million times more likely that on judgement day,aliens come down and abduct 144,000 people,the messiah comes out of the spaceship saying "sorry,i do apoligise....we rather cocked everything up,our planets fucked,and ive come to blow you all to shit and take over the planet,the upshot is im saving 144,000 of you cos you humans make a tasty snack".
So you ask jesus,the alien with rocket launchers for arms,if he is really the son of god,and he says "of coarse heres my dad,we call him god on our planet"
Out steps an identicle alien like creature.
"did you make our planet"
NO says god "but we did do some genetic experiments,and kinda messed it up"
SO, "whats heaven?"
"how the fuck should i know" says god,"its my son that told you all that bullshit along with his mates,what did you go and tell them all that shite for?"
"thought itd be a laugh" says jesus
What about miracles?
"oh that!,well we're more advanced than you,as a genetic experiment you suck,but youre easy to heal and taste great with BBQ sauce"
At that point,you drop to the ground and weep like a child beaten with a fathers studded belt.....then silence,you hear the missile silos opening up,you see a flash,you feel a tingle and change of temperature "this is it"!.
So you ask jesus,the alien with rocket launchers for arms,if he is really the son of god,and he says "of coarse heres my dad,we call him god on our planet"
Out steps an identicle alien like creature.
"did you make our planet"
NO says god "but we did do some genetic experiments,and kinda messed it up"
SO, "whats heaven?"
"how the fuck should i know" says god,"its my son that told you all that bullshit along with his mates,what did you go and tell them all that shite for?"
"thought itd be a laugh" says jesus
What about miracles?
"oh that!,well we're more advanced than you,as a genetic experiment you suck,but youre easy to heal and taste great with BBQ sauce"
At that point,you drop to the ground and weep like a child beaten with a fathers studded belt.....then silence,you hear the missile silos opening up,you see a flash,you feel a tingle and change of temperature "this is it"!.
Well southstar former defender of the faith, it seems i was right in my thinking that you would become a Field Marshal in satans army of foot soilders. Although i am truly amazed you have been transformed in such a shot time frame into a heavy hitting Anti-Messiah. So be it. Lets rock.
Self Rightious??????? liar. i am not self righteous, i confess openly that i am a faulty human being in need of a savor, deep down you know that but i suppose for propaganda purposes that view of followers of the Messiah Jesus must be promoted to the general community. As for calvin he was influenced by the righting of Paul and salvation is for the elect. But calvin using human logic made humans into non-freewill zombies forced in some subconscious way to believe in and accept God or reject God and that God made people specifically to be saved and others to burn in some sort of crazy game. That is a terrible lie against Gods motives.
Yes God did know before the foundation of the World who would be the elect and who would be condemned. Before they where born He knew their ultimate destination, but He knew this from His Foreknowledge a word that calvin and calvinist conveniently ignore. Foreknowledge is Gods knowledge of the entire History of the Universe before He put it into motion and time. Both the universe and time that we experience was part of that creation and God is Not Limited By His Creation Nor the limited Logic of Smart Men. God sees all out times at one time.
Challenged accepted Anti-Messiah
Now have you ever actually read the scripture you posted? Oh you say yes indeed i have. But have you read it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit??? Lets go though it will we and i will even add another verse to the quote for good measure.
Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Amen. All that the law called wrong against God is still wrong and all the good guidance in the law is still good. Just as Jesus said.
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you see the and do you see the and Anti-Messiah?
The Word does not say Whoever therefore breaks one of these commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, does it.?? NO there are two parameters needed to obtain that title. Both breaking and teaching that it is good to break that Law.
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Well now the righteousness of the Pharisees. Ha Ha Ha as a former bible believing "fundamentalist" christian you no doubt know how Jesus looked upon the Pharisees. But just in case you want to lie again i will post a well known verse.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
Now of course you know what the cup represents Don't you Anti-Messiah
yep it represents them. Outside they where very careful to keep all the laws to appear that they where righteous but on the inside in their mind and spirit they where fuelled with evil thoughts. Lets compare them to a follower of the Messiah One who through the Holy Spirit Loves the Law that it is good as Paul wrote in Romans 7 But being Human breaks the law sometimes. Now inside they are clean although they are not clean on the outside they are no where near as dirty on the outside as the Pharisees where on the inside. So Yes The righteousness to true followers of the Messiah do exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
Ha Ha Ha. Now Anti-Messiah How does one Keep the commandments??
But wait you have changed the word Keep to "upholding" haven't you looks like you are once again saying that salvation is based on ones ability to Do the law and you know as well as any honest person on planet earth that never transgressing the Law is impossible for man. But maybe since you have joined the proud heading for destruction you may vainly think that man can reach perfection in His flesh state? Maybe that’s why you fell away from the faith? I know that a lot of fundamentalist denominations teach that sin can cease while we are in the flesh. But that’s just another abominable lie of satans little foot soldiers and their flood of false doctrines.
Now "keep the commandments": Well if you keep the commandments dear to your heart or in your mind if you like, are you not now in the possession of a Spiritual Mind and isn't your love for the law keeping them. What’s the point of trying to uphold the law which is impossible and at the same time think of doing evil all day long??? Is that upholding the Law Ha Ha Ha
Well southstar former defender of the faith, it seems i was right in my thinking that you would become a Field Marshal in satans army of foot soldiers. Although i am truly amazed you have been transformed in such a shot time frame into a heavy hitting Anti-Messiah. So be it. Lets rock.
Self Righteous??????? liar. i am not self righteous, i confess openly that i am a faulty human being in need of a savor, deep down you know that but i suppose for propaganda purposes that view of followers of the Messiah Jesus must be promoted to the general community. As for calvin he was influenced by the rightings of Paul and salvation is for the elect. But calvin using human logic made humans into non-freewill zombies forced in some subconscious way to believe in and accept God or reject God and that God made people specifically to be saved and others to burn in some sort of crazy game. That is a terrible lie against Gods motives.
Yes God did know before the foundation of the World who would be the elect and who would be condemned. Before they where born He knew their ultimate destination, but He knew this from His Foreknowledge a word that calvin and calvinist conveniently ignore. Foreknowledge is Gods knowledge of the entire History of the Universe before He put it into motion and time. Both the universe and time that we experience was part of that creation and God is Not Limited By His Creation Nor the limited Logic of Smart Men. God sees all out times at one time.
Challenged accepted Anti-Messiah
Now have you ever actually read the scripture you posted? Oh you say yes indeed i have. But have you read it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit??? Lets go though it will we and i will even add another verse to the quote for good measure.
Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Amen. All that the law called wrong against God is still wrong and all the good guidance in the law is still good. Just as Jesus said.
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you see the and do you see the and Anti-Messiah?
The Word does not say Whoever therefore breaks one of these commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, does it.?? NO there are two parameters needed to obtain that title. Both breaking and teaching that it is good to break that Law.
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Well now the righteousness of the Pharisees. Ha Ha Ha as a former bible believing "fundamentalist" christian you no doubt know how Jesus looked upon the Pharisees. But just in case you want to lie again i will post a well known verse.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
Now of course you know what the cup represents Don't you Anti-Messiah.
Yep it represents them. Outside they where very careful to keep all the laws to appear that they where righteous but on the inside in their mind and spirit they where filled with evil thoughts. Lets compare them to a follower of the Messiah, One who through the Holy Spirit Loves the Law that it is good as Paul wrote in Romans 7 But being Human breaks the law sometimes. Now inside they are clean although they are not clean on the outside they are no where near as dirty on the outside as the Pharisees where on the inside. So Yes The righteousness to true followers of the Messiah do exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
Ha Ha Ha. Now Anti-Messiah How does one Keep the commandments??
But wait you have changed the word Keep to "upholding" haven't you. Looks like you are once again saying that salvation is based on ones ability to Do the law and you know as well as any honest person on planet earth that never transgressing the Law is impossible for man. But maybe since you have joined the proud heading for destruction you may vainly think that man can reach perfection in His flesh state? Maybe that’s why you fell away from the faith? I know that a lot of fundamentalist denominations teach that sin can cease while we are in the flesh. But that’s just another abominable lie of satans little foot soldiers and their flood of false doctrines.
Now "keep the commandments": Well if you keep the commandments dear to your heart or in your mind if you like, are you not now in the possession of a Spiritual Mind and isn't your love for the law keeping them. What’s the point of trying to uphold the law which is impossible and at the same time think of doing evil all day long??? Is that upholding the Law Ha Ha Ha
Oh do not make me laugh. Do you think you are dealing with someone who has not read the scriptures. That dogs vomit may pass as caviar in the dark side you now inhabit Anti-Messiah but you know as well as i the truth. As a former bible believing fundie you no doubt studied the Old Testament didn't you???? Well just in case you lie and say "No i haven’t" lets post a few little verses will we.
Deuteronomy 32:43
"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people."
Rejoice O Who ???? Now why would the Gentiles rejoice?? when He has provided atonement for His People. pssst He did this on the cross.
Amos 9
8"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, And I will destroy it from the face of the earth; Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," Says the LORD. 9"For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground. 10All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, Who say, "The calamity shall not overtake nor confront us.' 11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the LORD who does this thing.
And the Who that are called by My name???? Gentiles who are called by My name Gentiles??..... Now who do you think are the gentiles that are called by His name??
Ok now that covers you post let me post another little bit of scripture for you my former brother and believer in the Messiah Jesus. oh and not to overly offend you i will post you some from good old Peter not that supposedly naughty boy Paul you see as false.
2 Peter 2
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
So spew all the vomit you want Anti-Messiah but your vain attempts will never sway a true follower of the Messiah Emmanuel Born of the virgin Mary executed and raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven, The Eternal Alpha and Omega.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
Self Rightious??????? liar. i am not self righteous, i confess openly that i am a faulty human being in need of a savor, deep down you know that but i suppose for propaganda purposes that view of followers of the Messiah Jesus must be promoted to the general community. As for calvin he was influenced by the righting of Paul and salvation is for the elect. But calvin using human logic made humans into non-freewill zombies forced in some subconscious way to believe in and accept God or reject God and that God made people specifically to be saved and others to burn in some sort of crazy game. That is a terrible lie against Gods motives.
Yes God did know before the foundation of the World who would be the elect and who would be condemned. Before they where born He knew their ultimate destination, but He knew this from His Foreknowledge a word that calvin and calvinist conveniently ignore. Foreknowledge is Gods knowledge of the entire History of the Universe before He put it into motion and time. Both the universe and time that we experience was part of that creation and God is Not Limited By His Creation Nor the limited Logic of Smart Men. God sees all out times at one time.
Challenged accepted Anti-Messiah
Now have you ever actually read the scripture you posted? Oh you say yes indeed i have. But have you read it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit??? Lets go though it will we and i will even add another verse to the quote for good measure.
Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Amen. All that the law called wrong against God is still wrong and all the good guidance in the law is still good. Just as Jesus said.
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you see the and do you see the and Anti-Messiah?
The Word does not say Whoever therefore breaks one of these commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, does it.?? NO there are two parameters needed to obtain that title. Both breaking and teaching that it is good to break that Law.
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Well now the righteousness of the Pharisees. Ha Ha Ha as a former bible believing "fundamentalist" christian you no doubt know how Jesus looked upon the Pharisees. But just in case you want to lie again i will post a well known verse.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
Now of course you know what the cup represents Don't you Anti-Messiah
yep it represents them. Outside they where very careful to keep all the laws to appear that they where righteous but on the inside in their mind and spirit they where fuelled with evil thoughts. Lets compare them to a follower of the Messiah One who through the Holy Spirit Loves the Law that it is good as Paul wrote in Romans 7 But being Human breaks the law sometimes. Now inside they are clean although they are not clean on the outside they are no where near as dirty on the outside as the Pharisees where on the inside. So Yes The righteousness to true followers of the Messiah do exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
Ha Ha Ha. Now Anti-Messiah How does one Keep the commandments??
But wait you have changed the word Keep to "upholding" haven't you looks like you are once again saying that salvation is based on ones ability to Do the law and you know as well as any honest person on planet earth that never transgressing the Law is impossible for man. But maybe since you have joined the proud heading for destruction you may vainly think that man can reach perfection in His flesh state? Maybe that’s why you fell away from the faith? I know that a lot of fundamentalist denominations teach that sin can cease while we are in the flesh. But that’s just another abominable lie of satans little foot soldiers and their flood of false doctrines.
Now "keep the commandments": Well if you keep the commandments dear to your heart or in your mind if you like, are you not now in the possession of a Spiritual Mind and isn't your love for the law keeping them. What’s the point of trying to uphold the law which is impossible and at the same time think of doing evil all day long??? Is that upholding the Law Ha Ha Ha
Well southstar former defender of the faith, it seems i was right in my thinking that you would become a Field Marshal in satans army of foot soldiers. Although i am truly amazed you have been transformed in such a shot time frame into a heavy hitting Anti-Messiah. So be it. Lets rock.
Self Righteous??????? liar. i am not self righteous, i confess openly that i am a faulty human being in need of a savor, deep down you know that but i suppose for propaganda purposes that view of followers of the Messiah Jesus must be promoted to the general community. As for calvin he was influenced by the rightings of Paul and salvation is for the elect. But calvin using human logic made humans into non-freewill zombies forced in some subconscious way to believe in and accept God or reject God and that God made people specifically to be saved and others to burn in some sort of crazy game. That is a terrible lie against Gods motives.
Yes God did know before the foundation of the World who would be the elect and who would be condemned. Before they where born He knew their ultimate destination, but He knew this from His Foreknowledge a word that calvin and calvinist conveniently ignore. Foreknowledge is Gods knowledge of the entire History of the Universe before He put it into motion and time. Both the universe and time that we experience was part of that creation and God is Not Limited By His Creation Nor the limited Logic of Smart Men. God sees all out times at one time.
Challenged accepted Anti-Messiah
Now have you ever actually read the scripture you posted? Oh you say yes indeed i have. But have you read it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit??? Lets go though it will we and i will even add another verse to the quote for good measure.
Matthew 5
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Amen. All that the law called wrong against God is still wrong and all the good guidance in the law is still good. Just as Jesus said.
19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you see the and do you see the and Anti-Messiah?
The Word does not say Whoever therefore breaks one of these commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, does it.?? NO there are two parameters needed to obtain that title. Both breaking and teaching that it is good to break that Law.
20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Well now the righteousness of the Pharisees. Ha Ha Ha as a former bible believing "fundamentalist" christian you no doubt know how Jesus looked upon the Pharisees. But just in case you want to lie again i will post a well known verse.
Luke 11:39
Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness.
Now of course you know what the cup represents Don't you Anti-Messiah.
Yep it represents them. Outside they where very careful to keep all the laws to appear that they where righteous but on the inside in their mind and spirit they where filled with evil thoughts. Lets compare them to a follower of the Messiah, One who through the Holy Spirit Loves the Law that it is good as Paul wrote in Romans 7 But being Human breaks the law sometimes. Now inside they are clean although they are not clean on the outside they are no where near as dirty on the outside as the Pharisees where on the inside. So Yes The righteousness to true followers of the Messiah do exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
Ha Ha Ha. Now Anti-Messiah How does one Keep the commandments??
But wait you have changed the word Keep to "upholding" haven't you. Looks like you are once again saying that salvation is based on ones ability to Do the law and you know as well as any honest person on planet earth that never transgressing the Law is impossible for man. But maybe since you have joined the proud heading for destruction you may vainly think that man can reach perfection in His flesh state? Maybe that’s why you fell away from the faith? I know that a lot of fundamentalist denominations teach that sin can cease while we are in the flesh. But that’s just another abominable lie of satans little foot soldiers and their flood of false doctrines.
Now "keep the commandments": Well if you keep the commandments dear to your heart or in your mind if you like, are you not now in the possession of a Spiritual Mind and isn't your love for the law keeping them. What’s the point of trying to uphold the law which is impossible and at the same time think of doing evil all day long??? Is that upholding the Law Ha Ha Ha
Oh do not make me laugh. Do you think you are dealing with someone who has not read the scriptures. That dogs vomit may pass as caviar in the dark side you now inhabit Anti-Messiah but you know as well as i the truth. As a former bible believing fundie you no doubt studied the Old Testament didn't you???? Well just in case you lie and say "No i haven’t" lets post a few little verses will we.
Deuteronomy 32:43
"Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people."
Rejoice O Who ???? Now why would the Gentiles rejoice?? when He has provided atonement for His People. pssst He did this on the cross.
Amos 9
8"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, And I will destroy it from the face of the earth; Yet I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," Says the LORD. 9"For surely I will command, And will sift the house of Israel among all nations, As grain is sifted in a sieve; Yet not the smallest grain shall fall to the ground. 10All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, Who say, "The calamity shall not overtake nor confront us.' 11 "On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,
And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name," Says the LORD who does this thing.
And the Who that are called by My name???? Gentiles who are called by My name Gentiles??..... Now who do you think are the gentiles that are called by His name??
Ok now that covers you post let me post another little bit of scripture for you my former brother and believer in the Messiah Jesus. oh and not to overly offend you i will post you some from good old Peter not that supposedly naughty boy Paul you see as false.
2 Peter 2
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
So spew all the vomit you want Anti-Messiah but your vain attempts will never sway a true follower of the Messiah Emmanuel Born of the virgin Mary executed and raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven, The Eternal Alpha and Omega.
All praise The Ancient Of Days
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§outh§tar said:
Sorry to butt in, but interpretation by whom? You
...Who is being self righteous?
The bible is subject to interpretation by the holy spirit who wrote it and no one else...not you, me, or Calvin. The truth does not come from a man's intellect, the flesh...but from the author of truth, the holy spirit.
Isn't it obvious...even given the very limited capacity of your own intellect...to see that if one hundred men interpret the bible, you get one hundred different interpretations?
Reminds me of interpreting poetry in high school. Everyone in class devises their own meaning based upon their personal perceptions and paradigms...associative emotional responses based upon a bevy of different life experiences...and according to the limitations of their own intellect. And come to find out, when the teacher enlightenes us all to the true meaning, according to the author, no one was even close. And I didn't even want to participate in the first place because the entire process is stupid and futile. What is the point of trying to guess? Just tell me what the author meant in the first place, and then I'll know...and then I'll understand the stupid poem...and be able to appreciate it for the meaning that it was intended to convey.
Then I suppose you will blame god for not making the meaning of scripture more obvious to you and your limited intellect right? Blame him for not making it easier for you to understand on your own...without him...without the holy spirit? THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. THAT'S THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL AND IMPORTANT MESSAGE PRESENTED OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE BIBLE. And of course...you're missing the point.
And the point is that the truth is bestowed upon those who seek it through rebirth in christ, which comes by the holy spirit of god, the author of truth. The bible is written like it is on purpose...because the whole point is for you to be reborn...and to receive the counsel of the holy spirit. Only then will you truly understand...only then will you know the truth. And until then, you and many, many others...including many "religious" people...will continue to use the bible, not to seek the truth as you falsely claim, but to serve the selfish desires of your own flesh in absolute futility. So if you are looking for a way to kill some time, fine...but if you're looking for answers, you're going about it all wrong.
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anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
I wonder if those people who answered "yes" to this question are really serious. You're telling me that if an eternal hell exists, you'd give up your sure place in heaven for an unsure eternal destination?
I emphatically answer "no" to this question.
In my opinion, this self sacrifice would be colossally unwise.
I emphatically answer "no" to this question.
In my opinion, this self sacrifice would be colossally unwise.
I would indeed give up my place in heaven, and for my selfless sacrifice, I'd secure an angelship for sure.
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
These are just my ideas, but I thought I'd express them in hope of some constructive feedback, not "You're an antichrist" or "you're from your father the devil". Adstar seemed to have been fond of calling SouthStar names. True, technically if he's not a Christian he's an "anti-Christ" (according to Christianity), but would you entertain the ideas of a Muslim if he continually said you were a "man worshipping tritheist" (which you basically are in their view, if you're a Trinitarian. If you aren't, then I'm wrong and I apologize for my assumption). I think if you want him back in the fold, you might want to be a bit more polite. Of course, some Christians see no reason to "be polite to the devil", but it is sometimes true that you can get more flies with honey than vinegar.
So, I assume this means that eating pork, wearing clothes with mixed fabrics, etc, is "still wrong?" Christianity did away with at least a BIT of the law, unless you wish to say it's a sin for a Jew who becomes a Christian to eat pork, wear clothes of mixed fabrics, etc.
The interesting thing about this verse is that it could be construed as meaning both these groups can get into heaven, but one group shall be called least and the other shall be called great.
Another interesting thing is, if what the Pharisees taught was so bad according to Jesus, why did he say in these verses:
Matthew 23: 1-3
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (KJV)
What? He said the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (of authority), ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do?
He appears to be condoning Pharisaical rules, saying follow what they say, not what they do, cause the Pharisees don't practice what they preach. What in the world was he saying if not condoning Pharisaical rules?
Are you reading a Christian translation? According to the Tanakh: Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and doth render vengeance to His adversaries, and doth make expiation for the land of His people.
And the KJV, which is a Christian translation, says: Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.
One translation says expiation for LAND, while the other says merciful to his land and to his people.
This verse could simply be saying that God'll make expiation (satisfaction) to his righteous servants and the land by spilling the blood of wicked.
Also, the Septuagint (which version, since I think there is more than one "Septuagint" tradition, I don't know) and the Dead Sea Scrolls say "heavens" not "gentiles". DSS says "atone for the land of his people" and the "Septuagint" says "purge the land of his people". Also, the word translated as Gentiles/nations doesn't always mean non-Jewish (Gentile) people in the Tanakh (see Joshua 3:17), believe it or not. The meaning of this verse seems to be subject to translation and textual difference. So, it doesn't seem all that clear to me.
Tanakh (Amos 9:8-15)
8 Behold, the eyes of the L-rd GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith HaShem.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, that say: 'The evil shall not overtake nor confront us.'
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof, and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, upon whom My name is called, saith HaShem that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith HaShem thy G-d.
This might be saying that "they" (the raised ruins of Israel) will possess (house?) the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, upon whom My name is called-in other words, Israelis who have been scattered according to verse 9. Verse 14 is referring to God's people, the Israeli captives.
Adstar said:
So, I assume this means that eating pork, wearing clothes with mixed fabrics, etc, is "still wrong?" Christianity did away with at least a BIT of the law, unless you wish to say it's a sin for a Jew who becomes a Christian to eat pork, wear clothes of mixed fabrics, etc.
Adstar said:
The interesting thing about this verse is that it could be construed as meaning both these groups can get into heaven, but one group shall be called least and the other shall be called great.
Adstar said:
Another interesting thing is, if what the Pharisees taught was so bad according to Jesus, why did he say in these verses:
Matthew 23: 1-3
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (KJV)
What? He said the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat (of authority), ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do?
He appears to be condoning Pharisaical rules, saying follow what they say, not what they do, cause the Pharisees don't practice what they preach. What in the world was he saying if not condoning Pharisaical rules?
Adstar said:
Are you reading a Christian translation? According to the Tanakh: Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and doth render vengeance to His adversaries, and doth make expiation for the land of His people.
And the KJV, which is a Christian translation, says: Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.
One translation says expiation for LAND, while the other says merciful to his land and to his people.
This verse could simply be saying that God'll make expiation (satisfaction) to his righteous servants and the land by spilling the blood of wicked.
Also, the Septuagint (which version, since I think there is more than one "Septuagint" tradition, I don't know) and the Dead Sea Scrolls say "heavens" not "gentiles". DSS says "atone for the land of his people" and the "Septuagint" says "purge the land of his people". Also, the word translated as Gentiles/nations doesn't always mean non-Jewish (Gentile) people in the Tanakh (see Joshua 3:17), believe it or not. The meaning of this verse seems to be subject to translation and textual difference. So, it doesn't seem all that clear to me.
Adstar said:
Tanakh (Amos 9:8-15)
8 Behold, the eyes of the L-rd GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith HaShem.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, that say: 'The evil shall not overtake nor confront us.'
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof, and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, upon whom My name is called, saith HaShem that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith HaShem thy G-d.
This might be saying that "they" (the raised ruins of Israel) will possess (house?) the remnant of Edom, and all the nations, upon whom My name is called-in other words, Israelis who have been scattered according to verse 9. Verse 14 is referring to God's people, the Israeli captives.
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§outh§tar: Adstar, Until now I had respect for you and your opinions. It is unfortunate that in your eyes, I am now a vomit spewing, lying anti-Messiah and "Field Marshal in satans army of foot soilders". I will reply when I can.
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M*W: SouthStar, don't bother. Adstar is simply trying to hold onto a very fragile belief system that he fears may be false. He is in denial. There are enough Christians on this forum to apologize for his false beliefs! Let him wallow in those familiar lies. That's all he's got. You see the truth now, and that's all that matters. You may be the "lying anti-Messiah" to Adstar, but you are my hero. You have seen the light and believed the truth, and you are free.
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M*W: SouthStar, don't bother. Adstar is simply trying to hold onto a very fragile belief system that he fears may be false. He is in denial. There are enough Christians on this forum to apologize for his false beliefs! Let him wallow in those familiar lies. That's all he's got. You see the truth now, and that's all that matters. You may be the "lying anti-Messiah" to Adstar, but you are my hero. You have seen the light and believed the truth, and you are free.
You had respect for me and my opinions did you???????? Now now Southstar don't start me laughing again
Just read the following quote from the Original Sin thread. Remember the first one that 786 started some months ago? Remember when you where the great “defender of the faith”???You had respect for the one you disagreed with "MUCHO vehemence". Respect for me whom you accused of spreading "the heresy of heresies" ?????
Who do you think you are kidding you Lying dog. You did not have any respect for me at all did you? Isn't it good that this board keeps a long record of the thoughts of the proud, the puffed up thoughts of men who saw their "exegesis" as so superior to others. Well look at us now southstar ..You with your supposed true "exegesis" have now fallen away from the Love of the Truth, The Gospel of Salvation through the Messiah Emmanuel, and me who you accused with much vehemence of being a promoter of heresy is still a follower of the Messiah Jesus.
Now give me no more of this "i respected you" BS ok
Now i will tell you southstar, I Never respected You. There is only One i respect and that is the God of Abraham, because i only respect Divine Perfection. God is no respecter of man and i will not respect any man either. The trouble starts when people have respect for men making men their Gods on earth, creating for themselves popes in other names. Some make calvin their pope some augustien some david koresh. Placing their eternity into the hands of other men by respecting them. Listening and being well taught is the thoughts of smart men rather than trusting in the love of the truth and accepting The Word of The Messiah Jesus.
All praise The Ancient Of Days