World's Ice Caps are Melting!

[valich]

Just forget my first sentence. As you're rolling on the ground laughing I'm saying to myself "valich, "open mouth, insert foot": my dumbest statement posted yet. Still the statements about DHMO. And your statement:

"Looking at the billion years time scale on the average CO2 is declining. The very long parts of the carbon cycle may not be in balance for instance: CO2 -> Limestone -> Volcanic reduction to CO2. Hence the amount of limestone is steadily increasing at the expence of precious carbon for the biomass. Humanity is doing Earth and nature a great favour by recovering some carbon (from fossil fuels) that would otherwise be lost for the total Earth biomass."

Why should we be interested in a billion year time scale. Your talking about when cyanobacteria started producing O2 from C02: we weren't even around. What do you mean that we are "recovering carbon?" We're changing its composition to a GHG. How would it "otherwise be lost for the total Earth biomass"? What's the logic behind this to our benefit?

 

[Andre]

...
If the author means water than why does he just say so.

Perhaps because he wanted to expose how alarmism works. It was some 16-18 years old student BTW. I'm sure we will hear more of him, a genius.

But still, it states: "DHMO contributes to global warming and the "Greenhouse Effect", and is one of the so-called "greenhouse gasses." [H2O is not a GHG!]

Thanks for another exposure of your knowlegde:

http://www.espere.net/Unitedkingdom/water/uk_watervapour.html

Water vapor is the most important greenhouse gas!

In a very rough approximation the following trace gases contribute to the greenhouse effect:

60% water vapor
20% carbon dioxide (CO2)
The rest (~20%) is caused by ozone (O3), nitrous oxide (N2O), methane (CH4), and several other species.

Measurable levels of DHMO have been verified in ice samples taken from both the Arctic and Antarctic ice caps. [Isn't this a little ridiculous: ice = water?]

I do wonder what planet are you living on. Or perhaps another dimension like DW Rabon? Right here in this universe, both ice and water are H2O.

 

[valich]

both ice and water are H2O" - and?

Why are you even posting these graphs about C02 and methane absorption? There's no argument that CO2 and methane are reabsorbed in our planet through multiple venues. This remains constant, although the amount of CO2 produced in a billion year time scale has certainly increased with bacteria and plant growth. But absorption levels tell us nothing about increases in emision of Greenhouse Gas levels. So what's your point in posting these graphs? Methane is a worse Greenhouse Gas than CO2, and? And their is some evidence that absorption of CO2 has increased in the last year or two, but what are you trying to say?

 

[protostar]

Dhmo, co2, methane it does not matter.
In our little cubical (atmosphere) we can only gather so much.
So, everyone is right. Greenhouse effect, natural cycle, well,
what the hell are ya gonna do about it? The fact remains
the same, the atmosphere is unstableunstable
Let's deal with it.
Give examples of options.

 

[Billy T]

...Give examples of options.

One reasonably well confirmed option, economically affordable, is to throw out some iron dust in parts of the ocean lacking iron. The resultant photo plankton blooms do tie up a lot of carbon (It is a nice low cost gesture to do for the next intelligent life form to occupy the Earth after humankind is extinct. - I.e. partially replace the oil capital of Earth.)

Another economic alternative is to switch all mobile uses of oil (gas etc) to alcohol. All the carbon released to air by alcohol combustion was taken from the air by the growing cane, and some taken from the air is sequestered in the soil (cane roots and humus after passing thru a cow) which reduces the need for fertilizer, which is also a big user of oil and makes pollutions in its manufacture.

However, it is not sure that CO2 is the problem causing global warming, which is very well established by sea level data. (Net melting of ice supported on land and thermal expansion of salt-water cause sea level to rise.) There are several studies that confirm the obvious - more CO2 in the air aids growing crops. Current levels are far below concentrations dangerous to man. (In fact, the air exhaled by man is at least a ten-fold concentration of CO2 compared to that inhaled. Therefore, I guess a few mass killings could be added to the list of economic measures for reducing CO2.)

 

[fo3]

About eighty metres of sea-level rise if all the ice melts--plus further sea-level rise because the Greenland and Antarctic continents will rise out of the sea, displacing more water.

Sorry to take this post out of the first page of a long thread, but I really dont have the time to through all of the pages and see if this has already been asked, but

where do you get the figure eighty metres to the sea-level rise?

The ice glaciers and icecaps contain a total of 25 million cubic kilometres of water. The current area covered by water is about 360 billion square kilometres. By spreading all the water from all the ice on earth, we get a water-level rise of about 7cm. This is about 1000 times less then what you have said.

Can anyone point out the flaws in my line of thought?

 

[Ophiolite]

Yes. I can.

Area of a sphere 4 pi r^2
Surface area of the Earth = 4 x 3.14 x 6400^2 = 515,000,000 square kilometres
Area of sea (approx) = 360 million square kilometres

You are out by a factor of 1000.

1000 x 7cm = 70m ~ 80m

 

[fo3]

Well I'll be damned

 

[valich]

"The satellite image on the left shows the minimum concentration of Arctic sea ice in 1979, while the image on the right shows the concentration of sea ice recorded on Sept. 21, 2005. New satellite observations show that sea ice in the Arctic is melting faster while air temperatures in the region are rising sharply.

The observations showed 2.06 million square miles of sea ice as late as Sept. 19. That’s the lowest measurement of Arctic sea ice cover ever recorded, the researchers said. It’s also 20 percent less than the average of end-of-summer ice pack cover measurements recorded since 1978.

At the same time, average air temperatures across most of the Arctic region from January to August 2005 were as much as 5.4 degrees warmer than average temperature over the last 50 years, said the team of researchers from two universities and NASA." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9527485/

 

[Andre]

Yes it's aggravating all that melting ice. The other day, there was a letter about it.

"It will without doubt have come to your Lordship's knowledge that a considerable change of climate inexplicable at present to us must have taken place in the Circumpolar Regions, by which the severity of the cold that has for centuries past inclosed the seas in the high northern latitudes in an impenetrable barrier of ice has been during the last two years greatly abated.

Mr. Scoresby, a very intelligent young man who commands a whaling vesell from Whitby observed last year that 2000 square leagues (a league is 3 miles) of ice with which the Greenland Seas between the latitudes of 74° and 80°N have been hitherto covered, has in the last two years entirely disappeared. The same person who has never been before able to penetrate to the westward of the Meridian of Greenwich in these latitudes was this year able to proceed to 10°, 30'W where he saw the coast of East Greenland and entertained no doubt of being able to reach the land had not his duty to his employers made it necessary for him to abandon the undertaking.

This, with information of a similar nature derived from other sources; the unusual abundance of ice islands that have during the last two summers been brought by currents from Davies Streights (sic) into the Atlantic. The ice which has this year surrounded the northern coast of Ireland in unusual quantity and remained there unthawed till the middle of August, with the floods which have during the whole summer inundated all those parts of Germany where rivers have their sources in snowy mountains, afford ample proof that new sources of warmth have been opened and give us leave to hope that the Arctic Seas may at this time be more accessible than they have been for centuries past, and that discoveries may now be made in them not only interesting to the advancement of science but also tot he future intercourse of mankind and the commerce of distant nations."

President of the Royal Society, Minutes of Council, Volume 8. pp.149-153, Royal Society, London. 20th November,..........1817 !!..

So, what else is new? Happens all the time.

edit: added independent source:

http://www.whitby-uk.com/cgi-bin/site.nav/whitby.pl?page=williamscoresby(2)

Whilst on this voyage in 1817, Scoresby junior visited Jan Meyen island, surveying the land, geology and wildlife and he found that the longitude and latitude were incorrect, naming the spot where they had landed, "Jameson Bay".

He also noted a remarkable diminution of the polar ice, which allowed him to penetrate to within sight of Greenland`s East Coast.

 

[Swordfish_dan33]

I don't know about you guys but I think this is really serious

The Global Warming has affekted even the somons of alaska who are being eaten by bears more then ever because the earth is heating and the bears aren't hibernating that longer any more and they eat more fish .

:m: This is only an example
This problem is affecting every part of the nature.

I think there is going to be another Ice Age if no one takes imediatly action.

:m: Even more
I live in Romania and this year had rained more then ever.

The biggest faktor of poluation is CO2, the one without we can live.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SOUND PATHETIC.......I'M JUST BEING REALISTIC

 

[Edufer]

The Global Warming has affekted even the somons of alaska who are being eaten by bears more then ever because the earth is heating and the bears aren't hibernating that longer any more and they eat more fish.

You didn't want to sound pathetic but you succeded nontheless. Can you provide the proofs (some peer reviewed scientific study) proving your assertion? As far as I know (as I mentioned earlier) bear population has been increasing from 9000 to 27,000 in the last decade, so no wonder they eat more salmon.

Another fact: salmon is not an important part of white bear's diet. The most important prey are seals and beluga whales. Salmon are prey for Kodiak and brown or grizzly bears only when salmons go upstream.

Besides, temperature increase has not been so big has to shorten the length of the hibernating period of bears.

:m: This is only an example. This problem is affecting every part of the nature.

I think there is going to be another Ice Age if no one takes imediatly action.

Well, not here where I live, and many places where I have been traveling through. They look the same as always (some places even better than 20 years ago).

:m: Even more I live in Romania and this year had rained more then ever.

Ever than when? Do you have historical records from Romania? Or simply you are a 17-year-old boy that can only remember 10 years back? Droughts and rainy seasons are cyclic, didn't you know that? You could read you country's history back to Vlad Drakul and see floodings and droughts alternating cyclically.

The biggest faktor of poluation is CO2, the one without we can live.

This is the real pathetic part of your post. Ask vegetation (trees, plants, vegetables, grass, phytoplankton, etc) how will they produce oxygen for humans and other animals to breath? CO2 no only IS NOT POLLUTION but it is a gas indispensable for all living beings to survive. And as CO2 concentrations have increased we have sen a proportional increase in crop yields. CO2 is LIFE.

I'M NOT TRYING TO SOUND PATHETIC.......I'M JUST BEING REALISTIC

To be realistic you should inform yourself first. And from the right sources. A really hard task, I acknowledge, as seeing by the level of information in some members of this forum.

 

[Facial]

If there is too much carbon dioxide, then at some point it will be considered pollution.

 

[Billy T]

If there is too much carbon dioxide, then at some point it will be considered pollution.

No doubt true at some level, but I note that the air I exhale has at least 10 times more CO2 "pollution" than the air I inhale. Thus, I think that one can argue that we are a long way from the point that the air is too polluted for people to breath with safety. CO2 may be making a contribution to "global warming" (Probably is, IMHO) but any increase is helping produce food stuffs for a planet with rapidly growing population as plants require CO2 and the current low concentration is not easy on them.

If global warming is real (IMHO it is) it will cause changes, but change is always occurring. Some nations will benefit (especially Russia, for one) and some will be hurt (probably the US - most of GWB’s decisions hurt the US in the long run, why should “anti Kyoto“ be an exception?). Some island ones will cease to exist.

I suspect the net benefit for humanity, in the long view, is a benefit. - For example, China will be able to import liquid gas from the vast Russian fields via a shorter Artic route; Russia's North will develop more when there are few great floods (Now caused by the still frozen Artic ends of their North flowing rivers when their southern ends have great "spring run-offs" etc.) Perhaps there will be large grazing animals up in North Russia again? "Siberian Beef" will hurt Brazil's exports, but by that time all of Brazil's pasture land will be producing cane for alcohol, so not important. - As I said: Only thing sure is that there will be change, not that it is for the worse.

 

[Edufer]

Facial, a short one: experiments have shown that for becoming toxic for mammals, birds and other breathing creatures, the CO2 concentration must go well beyond 6000 ppm.

Those concentrations existed during the Cretaceous when they varied from 6000 to 2600 ppm, while global temperatures were about 2º C higher than today --if you believe in proxies, that is.

But if you don't believe in proxies then you cannot take seriously Mann et al's Hockey Stick and the entire IPCC, whose science is based on proxies and models (not high fashion though).

 

[SaPhZ]

Ok, I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I really don't feel like reading through 14 pages..

In regards to rising sea levels, this is unrelated to the melting of floating ice... If floating ice melts, sea levels will not rise. Only when ice on land melts is there a relationship with increased sea levels. See this previous discussion for elaboration and evidence:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35824

 

[madanthonywayne]

Ok, I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I really don't feel like reading through 14 pages..

In regards to rising sea levels, this is unrelated to the melting of floating ice... If floating ice melts, sea levels will not rise. Only when ice on land melts is there a relationship with increased sea levels. See this previous discussion for elaboration and evidence:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35824

You don't need any links to prove it, just leave a glass of icewater out and see if the level of water goes up or down as the ice melts. It will actually go down since water expands when it freezes. This is why ice floats.

 

[Billy T]

when I posted this BBC news link was 2 hours old:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4660938.stm

It has seven meter forcast for sea rise if ice on Greenland melts and nice polar view of ice coverage graph you can step 2 years at a step begining in 1980.

 

[Avatar]

Winter air temperatures over Antarctica have risen by more than 2C in the last 30 years, a new study shows.

Research published in the US journal Science says the warming is seen across the whole of the continent and much of the Southern Ocean.

The study questions the reliability of current climate models that fail to simulate the temperature rise.

In addition, the scientists from the British Antarctic Survey (BAS) say the cause of the warming is not clear.

read it all: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4857832.stm

 

[Andre]

Another nice example of distorting the truth also known as lying.

The warming is concerning the troposphere and the extreme western part of the peninsula. The ground stations temperature in winter do not show a significant trend:

Just another tick for sensationalism.