With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

Honestly guys....I'm thinking....
I definetely want to use logil to try to prove that God exists and that what is written in the Bible (or some of it) is actually true.

However, I will take the harder side and try my best to argue that God does exist and that He is Love. And for every refutation I will try to reply. If I cannot find an argument to prove God's existance, I won't scrap the whole idea, but I will clinge to become agnostic.

If you can prove me that God doesn't exist by logical arguments, I might as well become atheist. If I cannot prove you that He does exist and you cannot prove me that He doesn't, then maybe we should all become agnostics.


And if I prove His existance.... well... we all become Christians! :D

So God is the "defendent", I'm His "lawyer", and you are the "attorneys".... :D
That's blasphemous.... :D
I don't mean to be, tough...
 
TruthSeeker: What if you quote the Bible and try to prove what is written in the quote by using logical arguments? ;)
*************
M*W*: Well, no one has been able to "prove" anything from the Bible in more than 5,000 years, so your suggestion is illogical. People who quote the Bible as truth are seriously mislead.
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W*: Well, no one has been able to "prove" anything from the Bible in more than 5,000 years, so your suggestion is illogical.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam:

"Argumentum ad ignorantiam means "argument from ignorance." The fallacy occurs when it's argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it hasn't been proved true."

A funny example...
"Of course, the history of science is full of logically valid bad predictions. In 1893, the Royal Academy of Science were convinced by Sir Robert Ball that communication with the planet Mars was a physical impossibility, because it would require a flag as large as Ireland, which it would be impossible to wave. [Fortean Times Number 82.]"

And yes, I see the irony of using an atheist site to defend theism....... :D

People who quote the Bible as truth are seriously mislead.
Ahhh.... if they don't provide an argument, then yes. But if they provide a reasonable argument, then there's nothing wrong with that! ;)
 
TruthSeeker said:
Honestly guys....I'm thinking....
I definetely want to use logil to try to prove that God exists and that what is written in the Bible (or some of it) is actually true.

However, I will take the harder side and try my best to argue that God does exist and that He is Love. And for every refutation I will try to reply. If I cannot find an argument to prove God's existance, I won't scrap the whole idea, but I will clinge to become agnostic.

If you can prove me that God doesn't exist by logical arguments, I might as well become atheist. If I cannot prove you that He does exist and you cannot prove me that He doesn't, then maybe we should all become agnostics.


And if I prove His existance.... well... we all become Christians! :D

So God is the "defendent", I'm His "lawyer", and you are the "attorneys".... :D
That's blasphemous.... :D
I don't mean to be, tough...
I have tried very hard to find some way to prove that God exists and that the Bible is truth. So far I have failed.

I have also tried very hard to prove that God does NOT exist and that the Bible is false. So far I have failed.

I have tried very hard to let science show me the way - but science turned out to be the worst failure of all.

For me, it has come down this. Something made me - it is simply not possible that I am a random number (I even think that God guides or directs me at times - although I can't prove it to anyone else). Something MUST have made the world I see when I open my eyes in the morning and the best explaination I have found is Genesis. Can I prove it? No, but neither can I disprove it.

So... I have decided to go with what I cannot prove false, until something better comes along. For a long time now, this has worked very well - right up to the time when someone asks me to prove that God is true. The only answer I have is to ask them to prove that He is false. I guess that's where faith comes in...
 
David F. said:
I have tried very hard to find some way to prove that God exists and that the Bible is truth. So far I have failed.
Many have tried throughout ages. Try reading Descarte's meditations. He constantly tries to prove that God exists (well, he does, in a sense). I'm sure you will find something useful in there... also, Plato's works are quite nice too (he wasn't Christian, but he believed in gods anyways).

I have also tried very hard to prove that God does NOT exist and that the Bible is false. So far I have failed.
Then you are agnostic.... :D

I have tried very hard to let science show me the way - but science turned out to be the worst failure of all.
It's not so bad.... once you know how to use it. Science does not necessarily disprove God. It also doesn't necessarily disprove the fact that there might be a purpose. Science just states what we know as true, according to our perceptions. Most of it seems objective, but I'm sure there's also some subjective sciences (sociology is often cited).

For me, it has come down this. Something made me - it is simply not possible that I am a random number (I even think that God guides or directs me at times - although I can't prove it to anyone else). Something MUST have made the world I see when I open my eyes in the morning and the best explaination I have found is Genesis. Can I prove it? No, but neither can I disprove it.
Well... the very fact that there IS order in the universe already states that there must be something underlining that order, something to dictate the laws of the universe. If a scientist says God doesn't exist because the universe is full of laws, then you might as well ask where those laws come from and why they are not different from what they actually are.

So... I have decided to go with what I cannot prove false, until something better comes along. For a long time now, this has worked very well - right up to the time when someone asks me to prove that God is true. The only answer I have is to ask them to prove that He is false. I guess that's where faith comes in...
That's a fallacy, so it's better not to do that....
It's called Shifting the burden of proof:

"The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise."

I love using atheists sites to discuss the existence of God.... :D
 
Yeah....David F.... it's a good idea to begin with Plato and Descartes (the third meditation, btw... but you should read the whole thing). And study some fallacies too. Then you will have a strong base for your search for truth. ;)

Which reminds me that you must also have integrity...
Pros Cons

Taoism is also a great study to help you find the truth behind the existance of God. You may find some interesting connections between Plato and Taoism.... :)

This should get you started... :D
 
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TruthSeeker said:
Many have tried throughout ages. Try reading Descarte's meditations. He constantly tries to prove that God exists (well, he does, in a sense). I'm sure you will find something useful in there... also, Plato's works are quite nice too (he wasn't Christian, but he believed in gods anyways).


Then you are agnostic.... :D


It's not so bad.... once you know how to use it. Science does not necessarily disprove God. It also doesn't necessarily disprove the fact that there might be a purpose. Science just states what we know as true, according to our perceptions. Most of it seems objective, but I'm sure there's also some subjective sciences (sociology is often cited).


Well... the very fact that there IS order in the universe already states that there must be something underlining that order, something to dictate the laws of the universe. If a scientist says God doesn't exist because the universe is full of laws, then you might as well ask where those laws come from and why they are not different from what they actually are.


That's a fallacy, so it's better not to do that....
It's called Shifting the burden of proof:

"The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise."

I love using atheists sites to discuss the existence of God.... :D
I have read Plato - and thought he was pretty much a screwball.

No, I'm not agnostic, but I might have been one once.

Science is very much based upon opinion and unproven hypothesis rather than actual fact. For instance, the speed of light is constant - right? Well, in the first half of the 20th century, there were many who thought it was not, including Albert Michelson (of Michelson-Morely fame - the first American to win a Nobel prize in science) who kept measuring the speed of light throughout his life and found that it was slowing down as the years went past!!! In fact there was so much stink in the scientific journals that some Big Physicist had to stand up and proclaim that the speed of light was constant and anyone who challenged it would be outcast from Physics! (I can't recall his name at the moment but I can find it if needs be). When you think about it, it seems silly to assume that since the speed of light is one value on the Earth's surface that it will be the same value everywhere? We simply don't know yet it is an article of "religious" faith in the Physics community and anyone who questions it - even with experimental evidence to back them up - is automatically shouted down without a hearing. Sounds more like religion than science - and this is only one example.

As for shifting the burden of proof. I can think of two points: first, there are always things we must take as an article of faith without question. These things are called Postulates and many of them are based upon the Religion we learned in youth - things like it is bad to murder people (is it really? If so, why?). For me, those things are the 10 commandments (which immediately tells me it is bad to murder). For a Muslim, those things would come from the Koran. Second, Science works in exactly the way I have described. A scientist puts forth a theory and the reasons or evidence to support that theory. If no one challenges that theory, then it eventually becomes something like a Scientific Law. If others question the theory, it might or might not fall, but the burden of proof lies on others in the community. In some cases, even evidence against a theory does not make it fall - especially if there is nothing better to replace it. Our courts work the same way. I don't have to prove I'm innocent. Everything I say is considered, by the courts, to be true, until someone else proves it is false. I have taken this tact with the Bible since I have not been able to prove it false. I do not have to prove God exists. I accept the truth of the Bible until someone shows me it is false - especially since there is nothing better. I will not accept aTheism since Something or Someone MUST have made/designed/created this place and the absence of God is the opposite direction from what is staring me in the face each day.
 
Science is very much based upon opinion and unproven hypothesis rather than actual fact.

I find it somewhat amusing that you would make a complaint of this nature, and then show preference to something that is entirely based upon speculation and opinion with zero in the way of fact - the very thing you seemingly have a problem with. That is hypocrisy of the highest order, no?

To help try and add weight to your statement you use an example, which is always a worthwhile thing to do, but the problem with your example can be seen in the following sentence: "Well, in the first half of the 20th century"

The thing with science is it progresses. It does not claim to know everything, and many things will change and adapt as time goes on. Religion does not. It sits in it's own filth, stagnating and slowly rotting.

I often use my bathtub analogy: Science will look at a bathtub full of water. One scientist will look at the bath and say it's clean. Then other scientists will come along and use all kind of instruments to measure it's cleanliness. These will be continual tests done by a vast range of scientists.

A religious man on the other hand will say the bathtub is clean, and jump straight in it. As time goes on more and more religious people will just jump right in saying it's clean - without ever actually looking at it, studying it, or testing it. They will close their eyes, shout "faith" and dive into the filthy tub, without ever pausing to question.

I wont say science is perfect by any means, but religion cannot even claim to be in the same league. One will admit its mistakes and learn and progress from them, while the other claims there are no mistakes period, and can never progress merely by its own setup and original claims.

We simply don't know yet it is an article of "religious" faith in the Physics community and anyone who questions it - even with experimental evidence to back them up - is automatically shouted down without a hearing.

That's not an accurate depiction really. Maybe in your example from "the early half of the 20th century" it is, but see... science has progressed.

As for shifting the burden of proof. I can think of two points: first, there are always things we must take as an article of faith without question. These things are called Postulates and many of them are based upon the Religion we learned in youth - things like it is bad to murder people (is it really? If so, why?). For me, those things are the 10 commandments (which immediately tells me it is bad to murder). For a Muslim, those things would come from the Koran.

There is a vast difference between "having faith" that killing someone is bad and the having faith of an invisible, unwitnessable, untestable, only written about by knowledgless nitwits, sky being.

Second, Science works in exactly the way I have described. A scientist puts forth a theory and the reasons or evidence to support that theory. If no one challenges that theory, then it eventually becomes something like a Scientific Law.

Your sentence is misleading, and is either due to ignorance or a deliberate twisting of accuracy.

The theories are always challenged, to a massive degree. It is only when all challenges arrive at the same answer that things can progress - which certainly beats accepting the say-so of a 2000 year old shepherd. Further to which, science doesn't hide in the closet - it is fully testable. Want to test gravity? Throw an apple in the air. Have a problem with someones theory? You can happily use your own methods with which to debunk it - and if there is a way to debunk it, science will find it.

Religion says something is true because it says it's true, whereas science says something is true because everyone agrees to it being true - after having pulled it in each and every possible direction, after having dismantled it, analyzed it, and gone over it with a fine toothcomb until there simply is no question of its validity.

Our courts work the same way. I don't have to prove I'm innocent. Everything I say is considered, by the courts, to be true, until someone else proves it is false.

You don't have defence lawyers in your country? The prosecution makes the claims, your defence lawyer, tries to "defend" you from the claims and show they are actually false.

I have taken this tact with the Bible since I have not been able to prove it false.

Ok now I have a quick experiment for you.. Take the same tact with the Enuma Elish and prove that false, take the same tact with the Mahabharata and prove that false, take the same tact with the Lord of the Rings and prove that false.

The inability to prove something as false does not instantly make it true. Unfortunately you seem to be taking the position that it does.

I do not have to prove God exists.

No you don't, but that sentence only survives due to the fact that you can't.

I accept the truth of the Bible until someone shows me it is false - especially since there is nothing better.

That really is quite shallow, and says more about who you are as a person than any other statement I've yet seen you make. Should I assume that the "especially since there is nothing better" statement means you've read everything else?

I will not accept aTheism since Something or Someone MUST have made/designed/created this place

Why? All the capital MUST's in the world, don't actually say anything. The only worthy statement you could give would be focused on the "why" someone MUST have made this place.

However, I doubt you'd be saying the same thing if you were standing on jupiter.

Here's a webpage worth reading which will hopefully highlight some things for you regarding this matter: Here

and the absence of God is the opposite direction from what is staring me in the face each day.

Such as what? Pubic lice, bowel cancer, the disease that causes someone to never grow skin and spend their life wrapped up like a mummy in extreme agony 24/7? Perhaps you mean the mosquitos and flies that infect millions upon millions, killing poor little African kids on a daily basis, or the gazillion and other one things that kill as painfully as possible without discrimination, or consideration each and every single day of the week?

Or were you just thinking about flowers and other things that look pretty?
 
David F.,

Religion and science are opposites. They complement each other. Even if religion is true, that doesn't mean that science is not true.
 
God reveals the knowledge to the scientists as they seek answers. Sometimes he confuses them because they do not acknowledge Him first but most times He is pleased to reveal the inner workings of his beautiful creation.
Caterpillar - Cocoon - Butterfly << Marvellous :)
 
God reveals the knowledge to the scientists as they seek answers. Sometimes he confuses them because they do not acknowledge Him first but most times He is pleased to reveal the inner workings of his beautiful creation.

I'd say it was the opposite, and so would Mark Twain:

And the pulpit says with admiring emotion, "Let tyrants understand that the Eye that never sleeps is upon them; and let them remember that the Lord our God will not always be patient, but will loose the whirlwinds of his wrath upon them in his appointed day."

They forget to mention that he is the slowest mover in the universe; that his Eye that never sleeps, might as well, since it takes it a century to see what any other eye would see in a week; that in all history there is not an instance where he thought of a noble deed first, but always thought of it just a little after somebody else had thought of it and done it. He arrives then, and annexes the dividend.

Very well, six thousand years ago Shem was full of hookworms. Microscopic in size, invisible to the unaided eye. All of the Creator's specially deadly disease-producers are invisible. It is an ingenious idea. For thousands of years it kept man from getting at the roots of his maladies, and defeated his attempts to master them. It is only very recently that science has succeeded in exposing some of these treacheries.

The very latest of these blessed triumphs of science is the discovery and identification of the ambuscaded assassin which goes by the name of the hookworm. Its special prey is the barefooted poor. It lies in wait in warm regions and sandy places and digs its way into their unprotected feet.

The hookworm was discovered two or three years ago by a physician, who had been patiently studying its victims for a long time. The disease induced by the hookworm had been doing its evil work here and there in the earth ever since Shem landed on Ararat, but it was never suspected to be a disease at all. The people who had it were merely supposed to be lazy, and were therefore despised and made fun of, when they should have been pitied. The hookworm is a peculiarly sneaking and underhanded invention, and has done its surreptitious work unmolested for ages; but that physician and his helpers will exterminate it now.

God is back of this. He has been thinking about it for six thousand years, and making up his mind. The idea of exterminating the hookworm was his. He came very near doing it before Dr. Charles Wardell Stiles did. But he is in time to get the credit of it. He always is.
 
SnakeLord said:
That's not an accurate depiction really. Maybe in your example from "the early half of the 20th century" it is, but see... science has progressed.

You are talking about the speed of light problem here. You know this not to be the case??? This is exactly the case in Physics today - the speed of light is taken to be a constant WITHOUT PROOF and anyone who challenges that article of faith is summarily dismissed without a hearing. This is distinctive because it impacts so many different scientific fields.

From your link:
The basic building blocks of life are a natural stable configuration of the component atoms. All that is needed to get atoms to build reasonably complicated Hydro-carbon molecules is the component atoms and a little energy input such as ultraviolet light, Thermal energy, lightning etc.

If we had agitated the tank full of balls and they had stayed in a completely random configuration, this would be quite remarkable. In fact it would be virtually impossible not to create a high degree of order. It's exactly the same with atoms. Add a bit of energy and you will always see an increase in order and molecular bonding. (remember what you did in chemistry class to get 2 elements to form a compound..... Heat it up).

The Creationist argument that order must have a designer is fallacious. Order or decreasing entropy is simply the natural consequence of a localised increase in energy.

No Magical Being or talking snakes are required, It happens by itself. It would be a miracle if it didn't happen.​
This is an outright lie. The building of hydrocarbon chains is quite different from build amino acids and then getting the proper amino acids to combine into chains with side molecules forming the "sides" of the DNA ladder. Then to get the amino acids to form in the proper order (it most cases, the wrong order means death to the organism). This is not even close to the same as forming a hydrocarbon chain (consisting of only hydrogen and carbon) and this, however, is just the beginning of the problem. DNA by itself is nothing/useless. It takes the ultrasophisticated organic machinery of the cell to make DNA meaningful (and in most cases, the cell is even cusomized to the DNA type). You also need the RNA sequences and copying mechanisms to duplicate the DNA strand (actually it has to be copied twice). All this "machinery" is actually more complicated than the DNA sequence. There is much more to the cell then just DNA manipulation - power generation, waste disposal, organic machines to move molecules around (somehow it know where to move it - through valence distribution) and if ANY of this machinery fails to work or is not present then the whole operation breaks down and dies.

It is the utmost in deception to equate the building of hydrocarbon chains to anything in the DNA or the cell. The above passage seems to say "just put the right atoms together and heat it up" - what utter nonscense. If it is so easy, why can't scientists duplicate the process in a lab? The very best anyone has done is sythesize a few amino acid (and guess what - they are not the right acids for life).
 
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You are talking about the speed of light problem here. You know this not to be the case??? This is exactly the case in Physics today - the speed of light is taken to be a constant WITHOUT PROOF and anyone who challenges that article of faith is summarily dismissed without a hearing. This is distinctive because it impacts so many different scientific fields.

While it's somewhat upsetting to see you ignore the rest of my post, I will still answer this with a pretty straightforward question or two:

1) Can you name me any of these "anyone's", and point out instances where they have been "summarily dismissed without a hearing"?

2) Summarily dismissed from.. where?

3) What was the nature of their challenge? Was it a simple "you're wrong, case closed", or was the challenge presented through tests, reports and evidence?
 
Well it's certainly nice to see you've edited your last post now to include an argument concerning a link I posted. Still a shame to see you ignore the rest, and even the questions asked prior to the link - but little is better than none I suppose.

As a quick request though, I would just ask if you could make a new post as opposed to editing. Making a new post means I get an email informing me about it, and it would also update the 'last posters' name on the main page. Thanks in advance.

This is an outright lie. The building of hydrocarbon chains is quite different from build amino acids and then getting the proper amino acids to combine into chains with side molecules forming the "sides" of the DNA ladder. Then to get the amino acids to form in the proper order (it most cases, the wrong order means death to the organism). This is not even close to the same as forming a hydrocarbon chain (consisting of only hydrogen and carbon) and this, however, is just the beginning of the problem. DNA by itself is nothing/useless. It takes the ultrasophisticated organic machinery of the cell to make DNA meaningful (and in most cases, the cell is even cusomized to the DNA type). You also need the RNA sequences and copying mechanisms to duplicate the DNA strand (actually it has to be copied twice). All this "machinery" is actually more complicated than the DNA sequence. There is much more to the cell then just DNA manipulation - power generation, waste disposal, organic machines to move molecules around (somehow it know where to move it - through valence distribution) and if ANY of this machinery fails to work or is not present then the whole operation breaks down and dies.

Sure, the site is kind of like a 'windows for dummies', but judging from your past mentions of science, I thought taking the layman option was the best all round choice. I did even consider making note of that on my last post, but people round here seem to get offended at the slightest little thing.

However, none of this would detract from my question of why you say "MUST". You mention that wrong order means death and that working failure means death, so then it would only be normal and apparent to state that anything that does exist is working and isn't in the wrong order - which in itself does not mean anything must have been created, but merely everything that we see now must work.

What I have to assume is that your reason for stating a "must", is because you don't personally think any of this could have happened naturally via trial and error? I'd know that to be the case if you had have answered the question, but no biggie. So now I can only ask what makes you believe that this could not have occured naturally given a vast amount of time, and what it is exactly that helps you support that belief.

The above passage seems to say "just put the right atoms together and heat it up" - what utter nonscense. If it is so easy, why can't scientists duplicate the process in a lab?

What do you want, a fully grown rhinocerous within a week? Allow them some time please. You think life just comes out of thin air, and immediately starts eating the animal closest to it? We're talking million / billions of years, not a weekend spent in the office.
 
c20H25N3o said:
God reveals the knowledge to the scientists as they seek answers. Sometimes he confuses them because they do not acknowledge Him first but most times He is pleased to reveal the inner workings of his beautiful creation.
Caterpillar - Cocoon - Butterfly << Marvellous :)
Hey! Have you been reading my journal!? :D
 
Just because Mark Twain says it's the opposite, doesn't mean it truly is....

Obviously. Sorry, did I need to write a legal disclaimer at the bottom of my post just so you wouldn't get all pedantic?

Much like you did your plato/descartes advertising, I did some harmless Mark Twain advertising. Get over it.

Argumentum ad verecundiam
"The Appeal to Authority uses admiration of a famous person to try and win support for an assertion."

Wouldn't you then type the same petty nonsense everytime anyone mentions jesus and one of the things he said?

Argumentum ad Pettyassholium

"The appeal to authority uses worthless little one-liners in order to umm, achieve umm.. something, although what exactly is a bit of a mystery"

Basically Mark Twain said what I would have said, but he said it better - so ctrl+c/v is the better method. If you don't like it, don't read it.

k?
 
Playground niggles.
I get the giggles.
As I eat my apple
I start to cackle
I go off somewhere
you cannot be
giggle or not
It is irritating me.
 
SnakeLord said:
Much like you did your plato/descartes advertising, I did some harmless Mark Twain advertising. Get over it.
It just sounded like you were saying "since I say the same thing Mark Twain says, and he is Mark Twain, we must be right"... well... appeal to authority.

Wouldn't you then type the same petty nonsense everytime anyone mentions jesus and one of the things he said?
Depends. If they say "this is true because Jesus said so", then yes. This is what it seemed you did with Mark Twain, which is why I pointed out the fallacy.

Basically Mark Twain said what I would have said, but he said it better - so ctrl+c/v is the better method. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Ok. Then I'm going to read it. I didn't know that was your intention.

EDIT: Nah! That wasn't part of my discussion anyways....
 
It just sounded like you were saying "since I say the same thing Mark Twain says, and he is Mark Twain, we must be right"... well... appeal to authority.

Give me some credit please, I'm older than that :D As far as I personally see it, Mark Twain was one of the greatest, (if not the greatest), authors on the planet. I find when I read Mark Twain that he compliments my personality 100%, and sometimes use his comments, (not only in the hope that others find them interesting), but because he had a great way of saying things.

It's also quite amusing to see atheism/christianity/religion having the exact same arguments when Mark Twain was alive.

Apologies for confusing you, but that was not my intention.

Depends. If they say "this is true because Jesus said so", then yes.

But doesn't that mean everything? Hell, I remember debating with you quite a bit a long time back, when you mentioned jesus a lot more, and it comes across merely as that.. the jesus worshippers/followers do say everything he said is true - from turning your cheek to how to wash your underpants.

Ok. Then I'm going to read it. I didn't know that was your intention.

I hope you enjoy it.
 
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